SCROG Gone APESHIT!!

\x0D · Aug 17, 2008

I started this grow as a first time SCROG expeirment.
Obviously i probably should have tied these girls down a while longer . They are about to take the roof off in the cabinet if I dont get this under control!
My "screen" - and i cant recommend it - was a net made for the top of coolers- It had the perfect dimensions and grommets for a nice install- i couldnt pass it up. Problem is its stretchy and the tops just laugh at it on the way up!
So, Rollitup gurus, I come to you for ideas- Whats the best way to get this thing under control? I am concerned that the lower 4-6" tops arent getting the light they need , and are better off gone so the larger tops can use that energy.. ( ala Al B. 's setup)
I have plans today to move the fan to the outside of the cab- This will free up 6" or so.
By the way, these are bagseed sativas,obv (yeah, i know...) Started 12/12 on July 25- Think they will stretch much more?

-\x0D

Al B. Fuct · Aug 17, 2008

Started 12/12 on July 25- Think they will stretch much more?

Aside from your stretch prob, everything looks really nice.

The plants will certainly stretch a bit more. They take 4 weeks in 12/12 to finally quit growing vegetatively and fully switch on flowering. The amount of veg growth will also be affected by the amount of veg time they were given before being chucked in to flower. Obviously, more veg time, the more veg growth you'll get before they fully taper off veg growth in wk4.

Vegging with fluoros can be responsible for the long internodal spacing. High temps can exacerbate stretch as well. Don't know where your temps are running, I see your cooltube, hopefully it's not too much over 26C. Not seeing a lot of heat stress in leaves, can't be too bad.

You might have kept tying them down longer, but by now your screen would have been more than filled anyway.

We may know what's caused the stretch but how should you cope with it now, as it's impossible to turn back the clock? The only thing I can think of is to nip off the growing tips. This robs you of the largest colas which form on each branch, but will put an immediate halt to the plants getting any bigger. The plant will divert its efforts to bulking up the remaining buds. You have a lot of light for the space you have, so I expect you'll get some nice dense buds, regardless.

If you can find the necessary vertical space, SoG may be worth a go. SoG ops need vertical clearance suiting plants which usually come up to about 40" max. With a cooltube, your lamp-leaf clearance can be 12-18" depending on the size of the HPS you're using.

You've got your conditions darn close to right, shows in the nice looking leaves. I have high hopes for your next crop with a few minor process alterations.

bubblegumgreen · Aug 17, 2008

For now you are kinda stuck.. But you can try to tie the tops back down towards the base of the plant slowly.. But, you will have some flowers that are not as nice as they will only hit half the light but its better than having burt flowers..

I love scrog.. In my past scrogs which was the 1st time i ever tried it i got 30-34 ozs per harvest with 6 plants in a 3x5 scrog with a 1000w hps.. And my room had no co2 and was pretty hot.. My new grow will be sog and co2 controlled with air cooled hoods..

Good luck..

Al B. Fuct · Aug 17, 2008

I love SCRoG, too- it truly is art when it goes well. It's just a lot of tweak & fiddle compared to SoG.

bgg, you might look at cooltubed batwings instead of air cooled hoods.

Fully enclosing the lamp in a glass tube, which also happens to keep the airflow smooth and close to the HPS tube envelope, makes them better able to keep the lamp heat moving with the air and out, rather than allowing the metal body of the fixture to get warm and lose its heat into the room's airmass.

The batwing ref allows easily adjustable focus and light spread (shorten or lengthen wires between the 'wings'), which the usual hood type fixture can't do.

The batwing shape is also very efficient; there's no surfaces perpendicular to the lamp which reflect light back to the tube- all reflected light goes to the plants.

\x0D · Aug 18, 2008

Al B. Fuct said:
Aside from your stretch prob, everything looks really nice.

The plants will certainly stretch a bit more. They take 4 weeks in 12/12 to finally quit growing vegetatively and fully switch on flowering. The amount of veg growth will also be affected by the amount of veg time they were given before being chucked in to flower. Obviously, more veg time, the more veg growth you'll get before they fully taper off veg growth in wk4.

Vegging with fluoros can be responsible for the long internodal spacing. High temps can exacerbate stretch as well. Don't know where your temps are running, I see your cooltube, hopefully it's not too much over 26C. Not seeing a lot of heat stress in leaves, can't be too bad.

You might have kept tying them down longer, but by now your screen would have been more than filled anyway.

We may know what's caused the stretch but how should you cope with it now, as it's impossible to turn back the clock? The only thing I can think of is to nip off the growing tips. This robs you of the largest colas which form on each branch, but will put an immediate halt to the plants getting any bigger. The plant will divert its efforts to bulking up the remaining buds. You have a lot of light for the space you have, so I expect you'll get some nice dense buds, regardless.

If you can find the necessary vertical space, SoG may be worth a go. SoG ops need vertical clearance suiting plants which usually come up to about 40" max. With a cooltube, your lamp-leaf clearance can be 12-18" depending on the size of the HPS you're using.

You've got your conditions darn close to right, shows in the nice looking leaves. I have high hopes for your next crop with a few minor process alterations.

Wow- coming from someone who gets the results you do, I am truly stoked to hear this!!
Cutting the tops pains me to do at this stage of the game- Chalk it up to first indoor grow syndrome .. :mrgreen:

Since I am coming up on week 4 of flowering now, I am considering this as an option prior to popping their tops...

For now , I pulled the exhaust fan, since the cab doors are always open anyway (11am-11pm light cycle) This bought me a 6 inch margin of error.

I tied down some of the tallest tops as the stems were kind of small and bendable. The cooltube is now about 10-12" away from most everything.

I lopped off most of the suckers , and this helped with lighting and airflow lower in the canopy

If they decide to keep stretching hard this last week, I will bite the bullet and get out the pruning gear, but mostly as a last resort.

One other thought.. Would cutting them back on nutes slow the stretch a bit?

I am currently running 1400 ppm using GH Flora series nutes:
2 micro
1 grow
3 bloom
2 liquid Kool Bloom (0-10-10)
2 Diamond Nectar ( humic acid)
1 Hygrozyme
2 ml/ gal 35% H2o2
and of course, 1 drop/gal superthrive

As far as the SOG , i am making some big changes to the op after this harvest, including changing to ebb and flow and more ventilation.
What do you think about using 3" cubes to keem em small? I could prob run 8-10 small clones in a 32x15x40 area, with some pruning??

Thanks again for the kiler advice !!

-\x0D :joint:

Silky Shagsalot · Aug 18, 2008

i don't know if i'd call that a scrog. a screen does not a scrog make, lol. you need to keep pulling the plant back under the screen as it grows. i clear cut everything under the screen.

Al B. Fuct · Aug 18, 2008

\x0D said:
One other thought.. Would cutting them back on nutes slow the stretch a bit?

Nope, it'll just make them nutrient deficient.

I am currently running 1400 ppm using GH Flora series nutes:
2 micro
1 grow
3 bloom
2 liquid Kool Bloom (0-10-10)
2 Diamond Nectar ( humic acid)
1 Hygrozyme
2 ml/ gal 35% H2o2
and of course, 1 drop/gal superthrive

New growers often use far too many 'magic sauces.' Most are unnecessary. I'd cut most of that recipe back to just nutes & H2O2. Of that list, I'd only consider using the P & K additive and for 1 week only, for wk6 plants. 35% H2O2 should be applied at 1.7ml/L or 6.4ml/US gallon (3.78L).

What do you think about using 3" cubes to keem em small?

The volume of the media available to the plant will not affect its overall size, aside from creating the potential for stunting via the plant becoming rootbound. 3" cubes are probably a bit too small to support a SoG plant by themselves. A 3" cube has a volume of 442ml. I like to have at least 2 litres of media volume for the rootmass of a SoG style plant. My 175mm dia x 175mm tall pots are roughly 4L.

\x0D · Aug 18, 2008

Silky Shagsalot said:
i don't know if i'd call that a scrog. a screen does not a scrog make, lol. you need to keep pulling the plant back under the screen as it grows. i clear cut everything under the screen.

Yea, as i said in the OP , I didnt count on so much stretch when I stopped weaving them in the screen ( at about 2 wks into 12/12) Next in the mother room is some nice Indica I started from seed and am cloning now, I have high hopes for a lower altitude from these :hump:

-\x0D

\x0D · Aug 18, 2008

Al B. Fuct said:
Nope, it'll just make them nutrient deficient.

New growers often use far too many 'magic sauces.' Most are unnecessary. I'd cut most of that recipe back to just nutes & H2O2. Of that list, I'd only consider using the P & K additive and for 1 week only, for wk6 plants. 35% H2O2 should be applied at 1.7ml/L or 6.4ml/US gallon (3.78L).

The volume of the media available to the plant will not affect its overall size, aside from creating the potential for stunting via the plant becoming rootbound. 3" cubes are probably a bit too small to support a SoG plant by themselves. A 3" cube has a volume of 442ml. I like to have at least 2 litres of media volume for the rootmass of a SoG style plant. My 175mm dia x 175mm tall pots are roughly 4L.

Ok Ok - no 3" cubes for me !! :mrgreen:

I will make the nute adjustments (dropping the additives) next tank change ( about 4-5 days).
I have been running 1400 PPM total-
Does this mean i need to still maintain 1400 PPM , but of just the GH Flora 3-part and h2o2?

You are very right about the magic sauces !!
Imagine my charign when at the earlier stages of this grow, I spent $40 on a pint of Floralicious Plus only to watch it fizz its organic heart out once it hit the H2o2!! (AND slime the hell outta my tank!!)

Think I may have just enough room for 2 rows of 3 pots like that..
I really like the setup you are using, and I wish I had the space to implement it!
I am almost thinking if I get rid of the cab, i could pandafilm in the closet area where the cab is now- it may give a bit more space
I do like the scent and noise control of the cab, though..

Think i am going to have to get back to the drawing board and figure out the ebb and flow rig in the cab.

Any evil ideas you have to turn this cab into a lean mean green machine are met with the utmost enthuasism!!! :hump:

good karma U are putting out there by helping us all, Al .
I hope it comes back to ya!!
-\x0D :joint:

\x0D · Aug 19, 2008

Well, with a day off and some killer buds for motivation, I decided to do exactly what I was trying to avoid- taking the grow apart to lower the drain tray, thus giving myself some precious vertical clearance.

I started by cutting the screen out with scissors, seperating each plant one by one.
Once I had them all out, I carefully removed the remenants of screen and twist-ties from each branch, and did some final trimming of sucker branches that wont produce much.

The pics of the girls out of the cab are after they had just been removed from the screen, no trimming yet.

I then went on to lower the tray, not nearly as much brain damage as I thought it would be.

the last pics are of the end result- I got the exhaust fan back in the cab, AND still have an extra 12" or so just in case they try to stretch any more.
You can see theres MUCH more light penetration in the canopy now.

Both tanks changed today, as per Al's recommendation, I am only using the GH Flora 3-part now, and H202

Flowering tank- 2 micro 1 grow, 3 bloom to 1400 PPM , PH 5.6
Veg tank 1 micro,1 grow,1 bloom and H202. to 1400 PPM , PH 5.6

By the way, Al I realized the concentration of H202 I have been using was actually way too low- I had been mixing about 2ml/gal thanks to misreading the directions ( 1-2ml/LITER) .

-\x0D :joint:

Al B. Fuct · Aug 19, 2008

\x0D said:
I have been running 1400 PPM total-
Does this mean i need to still maintain 1400 PPM , but of just the GH Flora 3-part and h2o2?

Yep.

TDS meters are actually rather crude ways of measuring nutrient strength. They make their measurement based on electrical conductivity (EC) of a solution. Pure water is actually a very good insulator but becomes conductive as dissolved ionic compounds are added. Some non-nutritive elements do cause the solution to be conductive, but the TDS meter can't tell the difference between ammonium nitrate and Ca & Mg salts.

The plants need the Ca & Mg but their conductivity won't contribute to a nute burn; simply subtract the tapwater ppm from your mixed ppm to get an actual idea of the nute strength.

Measure the TDS of your tapwater. If it comes up 100ppm due to minerals like Ca & Mg as are usually found in municipal tapwater, mix your nutes to a measured 1500ppm to get an actual 1400.

\x0D said:
You can see theres MUCH more light penetration in the canopy now.

Good-o. It's that foliar penetration which is going to give you dense nugs.

By the way, Al I realized the concentration of H202 I have been using was actually way too low- I had been mixing about 2ml/gal thanks to misreading the directions ( 1-2ml/LITER) .

Yep, the actual number for 35% H2O2 is 1.7ml/L, but 2ml/L is close enough. Plants can actually take a LOT more H2O2 than that without any ill effect. I've hit systems with root fungal probs with 10x that concentration (and more) as a one-off shock treatment to rescue a crop with root diseases.

\x0D · Aug 20, 2008

Well, The girls lived through the night just fine on their new diet, and they seem a lot happier in their newly expanded area!
I have to admit, I was a but nervous all at once doubling ( The old soup had about 800ppm of GH, the rest additives) the amt of actual nutrients they were getting, but I suspect I may a misconception of how the transfer occurs at root level.

I know there is a transfer of particles( osmosis ) that occurs when the plant takes up nutes, and when EC or PPM is to high, a reverse transfer occurs, taking particles( ions,molocules? i dunno) from the roots, thus nute burn.

Obv all the other additives that were in the soup were also contributing to the osmitic pressure at the roots, so was the plant was already conditioned for 1400 ppm?
I prob should have stepped up PPMs over a week or so just for good form, but was anxious to get everything on the right track.

I am DEFINITELY going to ebb and flood on the next run.. Timer goes off this AM for the drip to start, and next thing you know, I am hearing water dripping into the bottom of the cab ( right on my cloning light!!)
Turns out the drain line got kinked when i put the res. back on the shelf.
Got about 1 1/2" of water to towel out of there now... :evil:

Gonna really have to keep an eye on that from now on.

I love growing, but it seems it is 80% of the work and maint to run 6 plants as it would be to run 60!!

I am guessing about 6 weeks left?
Hard to say, I suppose, because of the unknown strain..
Any predictions when it comes to harvest time as far as yield??
Doesnt have to be down to the gram, just curious as to expect 2 OZ or 20.. :eyesmoke:

-\x0D

\x0D · Aug 20, 2008

Al B. Fuct said:
Yep.

Yep, the actual number for 35% H2O2 is 1.7ml/L, but 2ml/L is close enough. Plants can actually take a LOT more H2O2 than that without any ill effect. I've hit systems with root fungal probs with 10x that concentration (and more) as a one-off shock treatment to rescue a crop with root diseases.

CRIPES!! Did they fizz when you put them in ??
Im still kinda freaked out on that stuff from getting white fingers when first using it- I got a healthy respect for it!

Silky Shagsalot · Aug 20, 2008

Al B. Fuct said:
Yep. TDS meters are actually rather crude ways of measuring nutrient strength.

i don't understand. tds/ppm meters are all i've ever heard of as a measuring tool. what other options are there?

Al B. Fuct · Aug 20, 2008

\x0D said:
I know there is a transfer of particles( osmosis ) that occurs when the plant takes up nutes, and when EC or PPM is to high, a reverse transfer occurs, taking particles( ions,molocules? i dunno) from the roots, thus nute burn.

No, that's not quite how the mechanism works. Nute burn is an accumulation to toxic levels of N (or NH4, ammonium nitrate, as found in most nutes) in the leaves. You'll notice nute burns occur first on the lower fan leaves, on their tips and margins. If the mechanism of a nute burn occurred in the roots, the entire plant would be affected at the same time.

I love growing, but it seems it is 80% of the work and maint to run 6 plants as it would be to run 60!!

Quite true!

I am guessing about 6 weeks left?

Flowering generally runs for 8 weeks.

Hard to say, I suppose, because of the unknown strain..
Any predictions when it comes to harvest time as far as yield??
Doesnt have to be down to the gram, just curious as to expect 2 OZ or 20..

No easier for me to estimate than you! It'll be somewhere between a gram and a pound.

Al B. Fuct · Aug 20, 2008

\x0D said:
CRIPES!! Did they fizz when you put them in ??
Im still kinda freaked out on that stuff from getting white fingers when first using it- I got a healthy respect for it!

Of course it fizzed! That's the oxygen being released when the H2O2 comes in contact with dead or simple organic matter.

The white you see on your fingers is pretty harmless- it's simple organics being attacked by the H2O2 within the top layers of the epidermis. It goes away pretty quickly once the H2O2 has all been reacted.

Rubber gloves and eye protection should be used when handling 50% or 35% H2O2.

Silky Shagsalot said:
i don't understand. tds/ppm meters are all i've ever heard of as a measuring tool. what other options are there?

TDS meters are a crude method of measuring the strength of a nutrient solution because they don't identify the elements in solution which are causing conductivity, rather, they just tell you the overall conductivity of the solution, which is why they are called Total Dissolved Solids/Salts meters. However, for a hydroponic op, while crude, a TDS meter is good enough. You just need to know the limitations of a TDS meter and how to interpret what it is telling you.

The alternative is a mass spectrometer, which CAN identify the individual elements and their concentration in the solution. Unfortunately, most dope growers don't have $15-30,000 to buy a mass spectrometer!

Silky Shagsalot · Aug 20, 2008

mass spec?? i once worked in a lab and they did mass spec on mass spec's. yeah, that's a little pricey. i think i'll stick with my milwaukee pens.

\x0D · Aug 20, 2008

Al B. Fuct said:
No, that's not quite how the mechanism works. Nute burn is an accumulation to toxic levels of N (or NH4, ammonium nitrate, as found in most nutes) in the leaves. You'll notice nute burns occur first on the lower fan leaves, on their tips and margins. If the mechanism of a nute burn occurred in the roots, the entire plant would be affected at the same time.

I guess i misspoke, My understanding was that the nute burn we see on leaves is symptomatic of what is going on downstairs in the roots, and this symptom manifests itself after a peroid of reverse osmotic pressure

This is what I was thinking of:

Roots draw nutrient solution up by the process of osmosis. Osmosis is the tendency of fluids to pass through a semi-permeable membrane and mix with each other. The semi-permeable membranes located in root hairs allow water that transports dissolved nutrients to enter the plant while impurities are excluded. Root hairs have a saline solution containing organic acids. This solution pulls in the more saline nutrient solution outside the semi-permeable membrane. For osmosis to work, the strength (expressed in EC) of the nutrient solution must be greater than that of the roots.
Reverse osmosis (RO) machines are used to separate dissolved solids from water. The RO machines function just like the reverse osmosis principle works in plants. In plants, reverse osmosis occurs when the (nutrient) solution outside the roots is weaker or less saline than the solution inside root hairs. Reverse osmosis in plants causes the water to be drawn out from the roots, causing plants to wilt, sometimes severely. If severe, plants can dehydrate to death! For example, when a Christmas tree is cut, normally the trunk does not have a strong (saline enough) solution to draw in water from the bottom of the tray. Less saline water actually draws water out of the tree! The more water the tree gets, the more the weak water pulls moisture from the tree. When the nutrient (salt) concentration in the nutrient solution is too weak, the chance of reverse osmosis increases.

From http://www.marijuanagrowing.com/print.php?op=PrintStory&sid=3
BUT doesnt this mean just watering with plain ol' water would leach nutrients out ofthe plant??
Intersting stuff, prob not real manditory to know, but i am a programmer by trade, and like all the little anal-retentive details in order :blsmoke:

On another note, I got fed up dealing with leaks and clogged emitters and switched both cabinets over to ebb and flood today. Was a bit of a project, but seems a lot more foolproof!! Pics to come soon in a bit.
Hope you harvest is looking good, Al ! May the trimming go fast for you.

-\x0D

Al B. Fuct · Aug 20, 2008

\x0D said:
I guess i misspoke, My understanding was that the nute burn we see on leaves is symptomatic of what is going on downstairs in the roots, and this symptom manifests itself after a peroid of reverse osmotic pressure

Nope. That is not the mechanism of nutrient burn.

When the nutrient (salt) concentration in the nutrient solution is too weak, the chance of reverse osmosis increases.

I see this was written by Jorge Cervantes. While Jorge gets it right most of the time, sometimes he goes down roads that he really ought not to- seems a little confused about the theory he's commenting on. He says this like he this did not know the difference between salinity (presence of NaCl [table salt] in solution) and ionic compounds. Ionic compounds are sometimes referred to as "salts" of a particular element. There had better be no 'salt' (NaCl) in your soil or nutrient solution. His comments on salt in tapwater apply mainly to those using a salt-based water softener. Municipalities don't add salt to treated water.

Yes, you can leach nutes out of roots (and thus out of the plant) by presenting a solution with lower concentration of ionic compounds, but this is not the cause of nutrient burn. If anything, this is a way to cause a nutrient deficiency.

From http://www.marijuanagrowing.com/print.php?op=PrintStory&sid=3
BUT doesnt this mean just watering with plain ol' water would leach nutrients out ofthe plant??

It sure does!

On another note, I got fed up dealing with leaks and clogged emitters and switched both cabinets over to ebb and flood today. Was a bit of a project, but seems a lot more foolproof!!

Yep, clogged drippers are the nemesis of every drip-system owner. Unless you clean drippers at least every other day with a toothbrush and clean water, they'll clog. Hell, they may clog anyway.

You now know why I don't use them.

Tray-based flood systems with gravity return to the nute tank really ARE foolproof.

\x0D · Aug 20, 2008

The girls all hanging out in their new pad, redid the mother cab too...
and just some general bud porn

cant wait to go back to work so i can get some rest!!!
-\x0D :joint:

SCROG Gone APESHIT!!

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