SIP thread -- (Sub-Irrigated Planter)

[meangreengrowinmachine]

Isn't all the way dimmed something like 10 watts? Do you have a watt met weter you can hook inline

I do not have a watt metter at all, but it is a timber 250 watt kit with 5 cxb 3590s

 

[meangreengrowinmachine]

alright ill just start overly cautious and work my way down and dimming up. thanks for the input!

 

[Humanrob]

Humanrob nice clean looking set up! Im a big time treehugger and am always doing diy projects with what on hand so I appreciate that your doing the same! Your plant looks like a mag issue but it could be just locked up...not sure and I would take that with a grain of salt. That is a long time for a plant to be in a 5 gallon fabric pot. You topdress compost or new soil ever?

I used to use 3 and 5 gallon pots until i got sick of watering to often and yellowing to early in flower! I went to 10 gallons for flower and because I have the room and went no till now went upto 20 gallon pots. Big difference in growth and flowerin...granted I understand we all have different growing restrictions and environments.

Thanks for sharing your set up and style of growing!! Look forward to seeing the results!

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement. I've thought about the cal-mag thing, but its odd, there will be one leaf showing one issue in one place, and another showing something else somewhere else. One thing that impressed me is that in Jorge's poster he shows excesses and deficiencies, and sometimes too much of one thing looks a lot like too little of something else -- so I'm not ready to chase it in either direction at this point.

I've never top dressed a sip, I usually top dress regular pots. I've been somewhat following the instructions that come with commercially made sips, that's what the reference to the "trench" is -- there is a trench dug in the soil several inches above the bottom and *filled* with a channel of dry time release nutes. The roots tap in and access this vein of nutrients throughout the grow. Apparently it does not burn the tips, and it maintains its viability for the length of the grow. It is kind of a loose definition though, mostly the manufacturers show tomatoes and peppers being grown in them...

Right now I have a pair of Jack Herer's in 7 gallon pots in my 2x4, and that seems like a nice fit. A 5 gallon was the biggest pot I could fit on the lid of this res, that's how I landed on that one. I've grown in 10 gallon and larger before, but I find that there is an issue I encounter with watering where when the pot gets too big I'm less able to control not over or under watering it... long story I guess. We all find our comfort zone.

 

[meangreengrowinmachine]

Here is a pic of my shoddy set up, and poor mistreated plants (they were in there small containers too long) heres hoping they bounce back and this light doesn't kill them! trying it at about 24 inches 50% power to start.

 

[PDX Joe]

When you top dress your sip, do you water from the top at that point (at least to wet it down)? This is something I've been considering because I usually top dress my non-sip pots around the beginning of flower, but I haven't been able to figure out if top feeding a sip would be effective. And other than adding nutes to the res, I haven't found a way to freshen up the nutes during a run.

Usually when I top dress (regular pots) I add additional dry nutes to soil mix I'm laying out, and then subsequently watering through that brings those nutrients into the pot. I suppose with a sip the roots near what was the previous top of the soil line would no longer "air prune" and could continue to grow upward into the fresh added soil mix? Since the top couple of inches of my sip are mostly dry, I'm just not sure how top dressing would help?

For some background, I'm not a no-till soil building guy, I just use a mix of out-of-the-bag FF Ocean Forest and Happy Frog, and I add dry time release nutes to my soil. Lately in my non-sip pots (inspired by the trench in sips) I've been mixing dry nutes in a more concentrated way into the soil in the bottom third of the pot and leaving the upper 2/3's just soil. So far the plants seem to really like that.

I only top feed my SIPs. But, I make sure the dry ferts aren't simply poured on top of the soil or they won't break down properly. I scratch the new ferts in a bit to the top of the soil. Then I cover them with a bit of cow compost & worm castings. This should allow some of the feeder roots to grow up into the compost and access the new ferts. From my understanding plant feeder roots tend to be up toward the surface where there is more organic matter and water roots tend to grow deep to access water or the water table deeper in the soil. Additionally, I spread a bit of bokashi on top of the compost and soak it down with some EM1. The EM1 helps develop the mycelium on top of the compost. This mycelium supposedly helps break down the dry ferts and compost and deliver the nutrients down to the plant's roots. The mycelium needs to be protected from light and drying out by covering it with the plastic sheet. Some dry ferts break down easier than others. I know Down to Earth says the Biolive shouldn't be top dressed or it won't break down. I use it with this process and it seems to work, but I'm open to trying other dry ferts if they are more "plant available". I do occasionally add more EM1 and Recharge mixed with water to the top of the pot to keep the bacteria and fungus counts up in the top of the soil... maybe once every couple of weeks.

 

[PDX Joe]

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement. I've thought about the cal-mag thing, but its odd, there will be one leaf showing one issue in one place, and another showing something else somewhere else. One thing that impressed me is that in Jorge's poster he shows excesses and deficiencies, and sometimes too much of one thing looks a lot like too little of something else -- so I'm not ready to chase it in either direction at this point.

I've never top dressed a sip, I usually top dress regular pots. I've been somewhat following the instructions that come with commercially made sips, that's what the reference to the "trench" is -- there is a trench dug in the soil several inches above the bottom and *filled* with a channel of dry time release nutes. The roots tap in and access this vein of nutrients throughout the grow. Apparently it does not burn the tips, and it maintains its viability for the length of the grow. It is kind of a loose definition though, mostly the manufacturers show tomatoes and peppers being grown in them...

Right now I have a pair of Jack Herer's in 7 gallon pots in my 2x4, and that seems like a nice fit. A 5 gallon was the biggest pot I could fit on the lid of this res, that's how I landed on that one. I've grown in 10 gallon and larger before, but I find that there is an issue I encounter with watering where when the pot gets too big I'm less able to control not over or under watering it... long story I guess. We all find our comfort zone.

How is your humidity right now? The reason I ask is my plant leaves would look like this when my humidity was below 50%. I started paying attention to the Vapor Pressure Deficit and getting my RH up to 70 - 75% with temps at 79 - 82F and I've noticed bigger, greener less twisted/ wrinkled leaves and a bit faster growth too.

My leaves you to be somewhat small or stunted looking. But, I've noticed bigger healthier leaves since I made the changes.

 

[Humanrob]

I only top feed my SIPs. But, I make sure the dry ferts aren't simply poured on top of the soil or they won't break down properly. I scratch the new ferts in a bit to the top of the soil. Then I cover them with a bit of cow compost & worm castings. This should allow some of the feeder roots to grow up into the compost and access the new ferts. From my understanding plant feeder roots tend to be up toward the surface where there is more organic matter and water roots tend to grow deep to access water or the water table deeper in the soil. Additionally, I spread a bit of bokashi on top of the compost and soak it down with some EM1. The EM1 helps develop the mycelium on top of the compost. This mycelium supposedly helps break down the dry ferts and compost and deliver the nutrients down to the plant's roots. The mycelium needs to be protected from light and drying out by covering it with the plastic sheet. Some dry ferts break down easier than others. I know Down to Earth says the Biolive shouldn't be top dressed or it won't break down. I use it with this process and it seems to work, but I'm open to trying other dry ferts if they are more "plant available". I do occasionally add more EM1 and Recharge mixed with water to the top of the pot to keep the bacteria and fungus counts up in the top of the soil... maybe once every couple of weeks.

That's really good information, and makes a lot of sense. Your description is similar to how I top dress my regular pots, I suppose I could think about doing something like that with a SIP. I might change the way I go about setting up my SIP next time, the information you conveyed about roots is really interesting. On this run I have not been using a cover, but I might add one. I suppose if I wanted to get more nutes to the plant I could top feed, wet it down and cover it, and let the roots grow up into that layer. The thing is I have a similar soil/nute mix with my other plants right now (in regular pots), and none of them are showing any signs of needing more nutes. That combined with GG4 being a "light eater", and my concern is that it might be over-fed.

I miss Down to Earth, they always had such good people working there. Do you take the drive down to Eugene or are you mail ordering from them? (I'm assuming the "PDX" in your name reflects your location... I lived in Eugene for a bunch of years but I'm up here now)

How is your humidity right now? The reason I ask is my plant leaves would look like this when my humidity was below 50%. I started paying attention to the Vapor Pressure Deficit and getting my RH up to 70 - 75% with temps at 79 - 82F and I've noticed bigger, greener less twisted/ wrinkled leaves and a bit faster growth too.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Right now the RH is at 55%. I have to keep it under 65% and have 24/7 air movement or there is a high likelihood that I'll get PM. I rarely let it get over 60%, especially once I'm in flower when I'll keep it closer to 50%. I'm growing in an old (1930's?) mold filled garage, its a miracle my plants are as clean as they are. I wish I could grow them at 70+% RH! That would be something. Even when I was growing in my house (built in 1903, dirt floor basement, etc.) I couldn't do that. My temps spend most of the lights on period between 77 and 80º, with nighttime temps going down to around 63º this time of year, with a warm up period in the morning. Oddly as I get into flower I have to run the dehumidifier during lights off, and it produces a lot of heat. Add to that the warming outdoor temps, and towards the end of this run (March/April) it will probably be between 77º and 80º 24/7. I was able to turn the AC off for a few weeks, but I'm running it in there right now to keep the temps below 80º. It's not a good set up, even after all I've put into it I'm not sure if I'll use it again next year.

 

[PDX Joe]

That's really good information, and makes a lot of sense. Your description is similar to how I top dress my regular pots, I suppose I could think about doing something like that with a SIP. I might change the way I go about setting up my SIP next time, the information you conveyed about roots is really interesting. On this run I have not been using a cover, but I might add one. I suppose if I wanted to get more nutes to the plant I could top feed, wet it down and cover it, and let the roots grow up into that layer. The thing is I have a similar soil/nute mix with my other plants right now (in regular pots), and none of them are showing any signs of needing more nutes. That combined with GG4 being a "light eater", and my concern is that it might be over-fed.

I miss Down to Earth, they always had such good people working there. Do you take the drive down to Eugene or are you mail ordering from them? (I'm assuming the "PDX" in your name reflects your location... I lived in Eugene for a bunch of years but I'm up here now)



Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Right now the RH is at 55%. I have to keep it under 65% and have 24/7 air movement or there is a high likelihood that I'll get PM. I rarely let it get over 60%, especially once I'm in flower when I'll keep it closer to 50%. I'm growing in an old (1930's?) mold filled garage, its a miracle my plants are as clean as they are. I wish I could grow them at 70+% RH! That would be something. Even when I was growing in my house (built in 1903, dirt floor basement, etc.) I couldn't do that. My temps spend most of the lights on period between 77 and 80º, with nighttime temps going down to around 63º this time of year, with a warm up period in the morning. Oddly as I get into flower I have to run the dehumidifier during lights off, and it produces a lot of heat. Add to that the warming outdoor temps, and towards the end of this run (March/April) it will probably be between 77º and 80º 24/7. I was able to turn the AC off for a few weeks, but I'm running it in there right now to keep the temps below 80º. It's not a good set up, even after all I've put into it I'm not sure if I'll use it again next year.

Yes, indeed... Portland grower. I get the Down to Earth fertilizer at Portland Nursery. They carry their stuff. I've also used EB Stone. The local hydro store had Down to Earth for awhile, but no more. I tend to find the better organic products at the nursery rather than the grow store. Dennis' 7 Dees nursery on Division carried the Malibu Biodynamic Compost, but that location has been closed recently. Bloom Garden Supply has the Malibu Compost.

 

[Humanrob]

Yes, indeed... Portland grower. I get the Down to Earth fertilizer at Portland Nursery. They carry their stuff. I've also used EB Stone. The local hydro store had Down to Earth for awhile, but no more. I tend to find the better organic products at the nursery rather than the grow store. Dennis' 7 Dees nursery on Division carried the Malibu Biodynamic Compost, but that location has been closed recently. Bloom Garden Supply has the Malibu Compost.

Ah, that makes sense. I'm east of Portland, but I make it to the Portland Nursery near 205 for our outdoor veggie garden at least once each spring. I tend to get my Fox Farm and Happy Frog soil from Grow World, it's much closer. Maybe I'll branch out next time.

 

[PDX Joe]

Ah, that makes sense. I'm east of Portland, but I make it to the Portland Nursery near 205 for our outdoor veggie garden at least once each spring. I tend to get my Fox Farm and Happy Frog soil from Grow World, it's much closer. Maybe I'll branch out next time.

Do you find you get good wicking using super soil? I have always avoided super soil for fear it would be too dense and would either not wick as effectively or would allow the soil to become too wet in a SIPs. I may try pure compost or a super soil with my potatoes outside this year in their SIPs. I find they don’t get enough nutrients using pure peat and top dressing.

 

[Humanrob]

Do you find you get good wicking using super soil? I have always avoided super soil for fear it would be too dense and would either not wick as effectively or would allow the soil to become too wet in a SIPs. I may try pure compost or a super soil with my potatoes outside this year in their SIPs. I find they don’t get enough nutrients using pure peat and top dressing.

"Super soil"? I'm not sure what you are referring to.

I use a blend of these:


I don't seem to have any issues with wicking, but I probably build my wicks larger than they need to be. At first I was using coco in the wick because I thought it would keep the water cleaner, but the last couple of times I've just put soil in.

 

[meangreengrowinmachine]

i have a pre cooked soil that i will be using hopefully i have enough for all to fill all of these lol if not i guess i might be using this old fox farms on a few and seeing what happens...

here is my soil mix... approx... it has been used once or twice and re amended

pete moss 7.5 gal
worm castings 3.75 gal
compost (sadly i had to use organic promix here as i had moved and lost my established pile) 3.75 gal
perlite 7.5 gal
lime 3 cups
glacial rock dust 12 cups
thats my base
then i mix my amendments together as below
kelp meal 6 cups
epsoma tomato tone 3 cups
alfalfa meal 3 cups
neem meal 3 cups
crab meal 3 cups
finely ground egg shells about 3 cups
azomite about a cup

I then take a total of 7.5 cups of the amendment mix and add it to the base and let it sit for at least 4 weeks...

 

[Humanrob]

i have a pre cooked soil that i will be using hopefully i have enough for all to fill all of these lol if not i guess i might be using this old fox farms on a few and seeing what happens...

here is my soil mix... approx... it has been used once or twice and re amended

pete moss 7.5 gal
worm castings 3.75 gal
compost (sadly i had to use organic promix here as i had moved and lost my established pile) 3.75 gal
perlite 7.5 gal
lime 3 cups
glacial rock dust 12 cups
thats my base
then i mix my amendments together as below
kelp meal 6 cups
epsoma tomato tone 3 cups
alfalfa meal 3 cups
neem meal 3 cups
crab meal 3 cups
finely ground egg shells about 3 cups
azomite about a cup

I then take a total of 7.5 cups of the amendment mix and add it to the base and let it sit for at least 4 weeks...

You soil builders are very impressive. Have you ever done a side by side comparison of bud grown in your home-made soil vs. pre-bagged soil? If so, what was the difference in the bud?

I'm really lucky, the person I grow for used to smoke horrible weed before I started to supply her, so pretty much everything I've given her has blown her away. I guess my plants would be healthier and therefore produce more, and/or perhaps the bud would taste better if I built my own soil?

This reminds me of back in 1987, I drove my '64 Ford Falcon to a VW dealership to test drive the new Fox. I test drove the Fox, and it felt totally nimble and modern compared to the Falcon. Then the kid working the lot told me he could get me into a left-over GTI for the same money as the Fox, so I drove that -- way more car. Then he talked to his manager, and he couldn't actually make that deal... so I drove the Fox again. Now the Fox seemed underpowered, and cheap, so I left the lot without buying anything.

The point, you ask? If the cannabis I'm growing is meeting our needs, I'm not sure I should test drive anything better, especially if it's going to require as much time and effort as y'all put into it! LOL
I strive for quality, and simplicity. There is a balancing point between the best cannabis I can produce, and the least effort possible to get there.

But that said building soil does fascinate me, and there must be a reason its worth all the effort -- what is the reason?

 

[PDX Joe]

You soil builders are very impressive. Have you ever done a side by side comparison of bud grown in your home-made soil vs. pre-bagged soil? If so, what was the difference in the bud?

I'm really lucky, the person I grow for used to smoke horrible weed before I started to supply her, so pretty much everything I've given her has blown her away. I guess my plants would be healthier and therefore produce more, and/or perhaps the bud would taste better if I built my own soil?

This reminds me of back in 1987, I drove my '64 Ford Falcon to a VW dealership to test drive the new Fox. I test drove the Fox, and it felt totally nimble and modern compared to the Falcon. Then the kid working the lot told me he could get me into a left-over GTI for the same money as the Fox, so I drove that -- way more car. Then he talked to his manager, and he couldn't actually make that deal... so I drove the Fox again. Now the Fox seemed underpowered, and cheap, so I left the lot without buying anything.

The point, you ask? If the cannabis I'm growing is meeting our needs, I'm not sure I should test drive anything better, especially if it's going to require as much time and effort as y'all put into it! LOL
I strive for quality, and simplicity. There is a balancing point between the best cannabis I can produce, and the least effort possible to get there.

But that said building soil does fascinate me, and there must be a reason its worth all the effort -- what is the reason?

I don’t think it’s necessarily better. But you can get good consistency with the soil mix you do yourself. I think it’s actually a little bit cheaper too. When I say super soil, I’m really just referring to any potting soil with all of the amendments mixed throughout all the soil prior to growing, rather than layering or top dressing or amending during the grow.

 

[meangreengrowinmachine]

Your analogy is great... but If you CAN make that deal for the GTI with just a bit of effort why not I guess. But hey man if it meets your needs sounds like its working great! I did a few grows with liquid nutes and all that and it just seemed like a ton of work every day. At first it was fun like science experiment everyday but then it eventually just got to be a pain and then you are always buying more nutes and chemicals and PHing stuff and there is always the next bottle of gimic that is going to make your bud so great! The more i researched the more i realized a lot of that is like anything else flash and marketing to get you to open your wallet. So i started digging (hehe) into what soils really should be and realized that duh what my grandparents had been doing for years works! I have not had the time needed where I am yet to grow my own soil outside from all natural materials that I produce, so I found a cheap worm farm someone had at a garage sale and off started looking into no till and organics and eventually found SIPs as a very easy way to have large live containers that I am not constantly having to water and drain etc. As for quality of bud I have seen plenty of people on here posting what appears to be killer bud using nutes, and I am sure it is great... my experience was not the same.. Maybe it just comes down to me wanting to use the KISS method... I guess my mix is a bit complicated but really i just make it let it sit and good to go, re amend as needed. sorry for the novel lol

 

[meangreengrowinmachine]

I do use just plain promix in the wick however per recommendations on this thread (-:

 

[meangreengrowinmachine]

I actually still have a ton of fox farms wet and the spendy dry nutes and not really sure what to do with them at this point they are pretty old i dont really WANT to throw them away.. maybe start adding them to a flower garden?

 

[Bugeye]

You soil builders are very impressive. Have you ever done a side by side comparison of bud grown in your home-made soil vs. pre-bagged soil? If so, what was the difference in the bud?

I'm really lucky, the person I grow for used to smoke horrible weed before I started to supply her, so pretty much everything I've given her has blown her away. I guess my plants would be healthier and therefore produce more, and/or perhaps the bud would taste better if I built my own soil?

This reminds me of back in 1987, I drove my '64 Ford Falcon to a VW dealership to test drive the new Fox. I test drove the Fox, and it felt totally nimble and modern compared to the Falcon. Then the kid working the lot told me he could get me into a left-over GTI for the same money as the Fox, so I drove that -- way more car. Then he talked to his manager, and he couldn't actually make that deal... so I drove the Fox again. Now the Fox seemed underpowered, and cheap, so I left the lot without buying anything.

The point, you ask? If the cannabis I'm growing is meeting our needs, I'm not sure I should test drive anything better, especially if it's going to require as much time and effort as y'all put into it! LOL
I strive for quality, and simplicity. There is a balancing point between the best cannabis I can produce, and the least effort possible to get there.

But that said building soil does fascinate me, and there must be a reason its worth all the effort -- what is the reason?

A super soil style mix is far superior to the bagged soils I have used (Roots, FFOF). Pain is all up front in mixing and aging it. Inoculate with myco at every transplant and then toss down a quality bacteria dominant tea or two and you can have very thick lush growth with water only for the whole grow, even a 6 month grow. Easy way to bring out full potential in almost any strain.

Read up on the soil food web and behold the glory of a perfect system, like perfection of the type that makes you believe in higher powers. Once I understood the synergies at work between plants, bacteria, fungi, etc, there was no going back for me. Good read is Teaming With Microbes.

 

[Humanrob]

Thanks @PDX Joe , @meangreengrowinmachine , and @Bugeye for your responses. I think if I wanted to add another dimension to this "hobby" building soil would be my next adventure. We do something like that with our veggie garden, each year adding more compost that we make and other amendments. Maybe someday I'll take it indoors.

 

[pinner420]

Prototype _USS Starwalker_ Veg model sip.