Slow yellowish growth under vero 29 3000k/3500k

Halfandhalf · Apr 5, 2018

https://imgur.com/a/uLLbG

Updated pics, lights on and off with camera flash. Turned down the lights to 200 watts total and they are 22" above the canopy... I wanna say the clone looks slightly better (back right) but the one on the back left is still pretty light colored with some curling... front one also has some curling and fading.
Is it possible it's still too much light? I'll keep it here for a few days/week to see but I've seen posts of other people running 400 watts in 3x3 with no problems.. Then again on other forum posts I've seen people with problems at 200w in the same space... Just not finding a definite answer.

poodawg · Apr 5, 2018

sorry i thought,i posted a pic of my yellowing, i had to raise my led up, from 18 inch to 30 inch,no more bleaching for me

Randomblame · Apr 5, 2018

Halfandhalf said:
https://imgur.com/a/uLLbG

Updated pics, lights on and off with camera flash. Turned down the lilght to 200 watts total and they are 22" above the canopy... I wanna say the clone looks slightly better (back right) but the one on the back left is still pretty light colored with some curling... front one also has some curling and fading.
Is it possible it's still too much light? I'll keep it here for a few days/week to see but I've seen posts of other people running 400 watts in 3x3 with no problems.. Then again on other forum posts I've seen people with problems at 200w in the same space... Just not finding a definite answer.

Got a cheap lux-meter from e3ay, mate! You can get one for around 14$US from e3ay. I'm using this one below with good success.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Accurate-200-000-Lux-Digital-Light-Meter-Tester-Photometer-Luxmeter-HS1010/372235434996?hash=item56aaf5fbf4:g:xQIAAOSw32lYq-rg

To convert lux-readings to avegage μMol/s/m² numbers divide the results by 69(3000k/CRI80) or 62(3000k/CRI90).
This is not 100% accurate though, but it gives you approximately correct numbers!

I'm using following intensities with good success:
early vegging: ~15.000lx (220/240μMol/s/m² PPFD)
late vegging: ~25.000lx(360/400μMol/s/m² PPFD)
flowering: ~ 40.000-50.000lx(580/645 - 725/800μMol/s/m² PPFD)

There is no need to go with higher intensities, the more light they get the more difficult is it to keep them happy/healthy.
If you can see at the end of the day that the plants no longer "pray" and look "droopy", that is a sign that they are "light saturated". They should pray until just before the light goes out!
If you pay attention on this behavior, you can give each strain the optimal amount of light and you will get healthy, magnificent plants!

klx · Apr 6, 2018

Halfandhalf said:
I'll keep it here for a few days/week to see but I've seen posts of other people running 400 watts in 3x3 with no problems.. Then again on other forum posts I've seen people with problems at 200w in the same space... Just not finding a definite answer.

There is no definite answer. There are multiple variables. 400 watts in a 3x3 is nothing. You can easily put down 600 watts over a 3x3 and the plants will lap it up as long as other environmental controls are in place. The basic rue of thumb is more light = more yield IF you can keep your environment in check.

Your light is not your problem. Look elsewhere. 3000k 90cri will veg and flower just fine, its been done many, many, many times on these forums and is still being done everyday. These medium yielding OG plants were under 400 watts of 3000k 90cri in a 3x3 flood tray:

1212ham · Apr 6, 2018

Randomblame said:
Got a cheap lux-meter from e3ay, mate! You can get one for around 14$US from e3ay. I'm using this one below with good success.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Accurate-200-000-Lux-Digital-Light-Meter-Tester-Photometer-Luxmeter-HS1010/372235434996?hash=item56aaf5fbf4:g:xQIAAOSw32lYq-rg

To convert lux-readings to avegage μMol/s/m² numbers divide the results by 69(3000k/CRI80) or 62(3000k/CRI90).
This is not 100% accurate though, but it gives you approximately correct numbers!

I'm using following intensities with good success:
early vegging: ~15.000lx (220/240μMol/s/m² PPFD)
late vegging: ~25.000lx(360/400μMol/s/m² PPFD)
flowering: ~ 40.000-50.000lx(580/645 - 725/800μMol/s/m² PPFD)

There is no need to go with higher intensities, the more light they get the more difficult is it to keep them happy/healthy.
If you can see at the end of the day that the plants no longer "pray" and look "droopy", that is a sign that they are "light saturated". They should pray until just before the light goes out!
If you pay attention on this behavior, you can give each strain the optimal amount of light and you will get healthy, magnificent plants!

Great post RB, worthy of a bookmark. Can you suggest a light level for seedlings?

Randomblame · Apr 6, 2018

@1212ham
I use 10.- 15.000lx for seedlings and early vegging and get good growth an tight nodial spacings. From end of week 3 I start to slowly increase to 25.000lx until the changeover to a12h light regime.
COB's have a high lumious density, especially when driven harder, so you must pay attention to a minimum distance. LED strips distribute the light much more evenly and allow smaller canopy distances.

Slinging PAR · Apr 6, 2018

1212ham said:
Great post RB, worthy of a bookmark. Can you suggest a light level for seedlings?

He did by listing the light intensities for various growth stages in veg and flower. I would just toss in that for seedlings 50-150 umols is more than enough. While PPFD is an instantaneous measurement at a location, it is more important to figure out the daily amount the plant can handle, DLI.

Streetsports · Apr 6, 2018

My guess is that the light was too close. When you moved it to 2 feet, how long did you wait to see a change?

gwheels · Apr 6, 2018

I think calmag prefers 6.0 to 6.2 ? The update is better at that range for coco. I usually try for that until in flower and then 5.8 to 6.0 for the remainder. CALMAG uptake is tricky with the range.

blowincherrypie · Apr 6, 2018

klx said:
There is no definite answer. There are multiple variables. 400 watts in a 3x3 is nothing. You can easily put down 600 watts over a 3x3 and the plants will lap it up as long as other environmental controls are in place. The basic rue of thumb is more light = more yield IF you can keep your environment in check.

Your light is not your problem. Look elsewhere. 3000k 90cri will veg and flower just fine, its been done many, many, many times on these forums and is still being done everyday. These medium yielding OG plants were under 400 watts of 3000k 90cri in a 3x3 flood tray:

View attachment 4117519 View attachment 4117521

Plants look great bro! imho 600 watts of quality LED would be overkill in a 3x3 tho but wtf do I know. I gotta watch power use so Im always trying 2 get the most out of the least.. If your end yield would be 50% more than I could understand 600 >400 but if you put the same cuts in identical environments I dont think it would be. But again.. the fuk do i know

nachooo · Apr 6, 2018

blowincherrypie said:
Plants look great bro! imho 600 watts of quality LED would be overkill in a 3x3 tho but wtf do I know. I gotta watch power use so Im always trying 2 get the most out of the least.. If your end yield would be 50% more than I could understand 600 >400 but if you put the same cuts in identical environments I dont think it would be. But again.. the fuk do i know

I have used 600 watts of quality leds about 1200 ppfd in 1 square meter (about 3x3), but only in middle flower with heat tolerant sativas, some CO2 added ...82F (28c) and about 60% rh.. It worked ok..just in the limit..also I used 10/14 to adjust DLI...

klx · Apr 6, 2018

Halfandhalf said:
https://imgur.com/a/uLLbG

Updated pics, lights on and off with camera flash. Turned down the lights to 200 watts total and they are 22" above the canopy... I wanna say the clone looks slightly better (back right) but the one on the back left is still pretty light colored with some curling... front one also has some curling and fading.
Is it possible it's still too much light? I'll keep it here for a few days/week to see but I've seen posts of other people running 400 watts in 3x3 with no problems.. Then again on other forum posts I've seen people with problems at 200w in the same space... Just not finding a definite answer.

blowincherrypie said:
Plants look great bro! imho 600 watts of quality LED would be overkill in a 3x3 tho but wtf do I know. I gotta watch power use so Im always trying 2 get the most out of the least.. If your end yield would be 50% more than I could understand 600 >400 but if you put the same cuts in identical environments I dont think it would be. But again.. the fuk do i know

Yeah man you dont need 600 but the point I was making is you could if you had everything else dialed. Good luck!

Halfandhalf · Apr 6, 2018

Randomblame said:
Got a cheap lux-meter from e3ay, mate! You can get one for around 14$US from e3ay. I'm using this one below with good success.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Accurate-200-000-Lux-Digital-Light-Meter-Tester-Photometer-Luxmeter-HS1010/372235434996?hash=item56aaf5fbf4:g:xQIAAOSw32lYq-rg

To convert lux-readings to avegage μMol/s/m² numbers divide the results by 69(3000k/CRI80) or 62(3000k/CRI90).
This is not 100% accurate though, but it gives you approximately correct numbers!

I'm using following intensities with good success:
early vegging: ~15.000lx (220/240μMol/s/m² PPFD)
late vegging: ~25.000lx(360/400μMol/s/m² PPFD)
flowering: ~ 40.000-50.000lx(580/645 - 725/800μMol/s/m² PPFD)

There is no need to go with higher intensities, the more light they get the more difficult is it to keep them happy/healthy.
If you can see at the end of the day that the plants no longer "pray" and look "droopy", that is a sign that they are "light saturated". They should pray until just before the light goes out!
If you pay attention on this behavior, you can give each strain the optimal amount of light and you will get healthy, magnificent plants!

Thanks for that. I think I'll get that lux meter asap. I really didn't wanna believe 300 watts was too much, they were even high up at 25 inches but at 22 inches and 200 watts they are doing better. Then again I also re potted them into bigger containers, but given that theyre in coco and have the same plant in the same soil in my other tent under 150 watts with the plant being 2 ft high in a 1 gallon container I don't think that was really the problem. Just too much light... updated pics... one with color from the light and one color balance corrected on phone to 2800k, not perfect color but more accurate real color than just the light. Leaves are less faded and standing straighter up. https://imgur.com/a/QgtsO
It's not perfect there's still some yellowing at tips on new growth and some fading on older growth but I'm being patient. I think I will try a slightly higher pH, 6.0-6.2 and hopefully will be able to turn up the light slowly after they adjust a little more. Also got my 4.0 calibration solution so I can make sure that my pen is calibrated.

Randomblame · Apr 7, 2018

They look already a bit better! Give her some time to recover, the damaged leaves do not recover but the new growth should be healthier with only 200w. Thats a lot for vegging, mate, at least 500μMol/s or a DLI of 32,5MOL/d with 18/6h. That's bloom intensity!
Really no need to go higher untill you switch...

hybridway2 · Jul 6, 2018

Halfandhalf said:
Pictures - the bottom leaves are darker from when they were in my other tent with 5000k lights. topped a week ago (were yellowing before that too)

I've been trying to figure this out since my last grow, I thought changing nutrients might help a little but my growth under my 3 3000k 90 cri mixed with 3 3500k 80 cri running all together at around 300 watts (goes up to 440) is making my plants seemingly grow very slowly with yellowing growth. My clone is the yellowest one, the plants I planted from seeds are staying more green but still have signs of yellow... I have a 5000k in my other tent and the plants were in there prior to this and were dark green with healthier looking leaves. The leaves in my 3000k/3500k tent are curling slightly. Tried raising to 25 inches and still no change. I'm most concerned about the yellowing and slow growth but I'm guessing it's all related.

So my question is has anyone else encountered this? I've tried more cal mag, more or less grow nutes and nothing really seems to help. Is the 3000k 90 cri inhibiting veg growth? It wouldn't be that hard for me to buy 3 3500k's or 4000k's to replace the 3000k's so I have all 3500k or mixed 3500/4000k. I originally went for the 3000ks because I heard that while it might promote a bit more stretching was still fine full cycle and better for flowering. It just seems like my veg growth is so slow and stressing the plants that it doesn't seem great.

opinions, experiences?

I cant get a plant to flower healthy under 3k 90cri to save my life. Same plants are under different LEDs as well as GPS & are doing much better. So far I had to have lost 6-8G's trying. WTF.

Earlyriser76 · Dec 15, 2018

Randomblame said:
Got a cheap lux-meter from e3ay, mate! You can get one for around 14$US from e3ay. I'm using this one below with good success.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Accurate-200-000-Lux-Digital-Light-Meter-Tester-Photometer-Luxmeter-HS1010/372235434996?hash=item56aaf5fbf4:g:xQIAAOSw32lYq-rg

To convert lux-readings to avegage μMol/s/m² numbers divide the results by 69(3000k/CRI80) or 62(3000k/CRI90).
This is not 100% accurate though, but it gives you approximately correct numbers!

I'm using following intensities with good success:
early vegging: ~15.000lx (220/240μMol/s/m² PPFD)
late vegging: ~25.000lx(360/400μMol/s/m² PPFD)
flowering: ~ 40.000-50.000lx(580/645 - 725/800μMol/s/m² PPFD)

There is no need to go with higher intensities, the more light they get the more difficult is it to keep them happy/healthy.
If you can see at the end of the day that the plants no longer "pray" and look "droopy", that is a sign that they are "light saturated". They should pray until just before the light goes out!
If you pay attention on this behavior, you can give each strain the optimal amount of light and you will get healthy, magnificent plants!

I veg with my light on 24/0. Should I still use 15k for early veg and 25k for late veg?

If not, what lux rating should I use for early veg at 24/0 and late veg 24/0?

Thanks.

Randomblame · Dec 16, 2018

Earlyriser76 said:
I veg with my light on 24/0. Should I still use 15k for early veg and 25k for late veg?

If not, what lux rating should I use for early veg at 24/0 and late veg 24/0?

Thanks.

Hey brother!
These 15-25klx are only "recommendations". You can use much more if you want but you can also get away with less!
With 20klx or ~300μMol/s/m² and a 24/0h rhythm you already have a DLI of ~26Mol/day.
Thats almost flowering intensity cuz for flowering between 30-40Mol/day are recommended.
Observe the plants carefully when you use more light and keep the humidity at around 65-70% in veg to have the VPD in a healthy range. If all these parameters are in check you could use up to 400μMol/s/m²(or even more) which means a min. DLI of ~34,5Mol/day. But its also strain depending how much light a plant can handle and you have to figure out the maximum for each strain. I usually go with only 70-80% of the maximum intensity cuz its much easier to keep the plants happy.

Earlyriser76 · Dec 16, 2018

Randomblame said:
Hey brother!
These 15-25klx are only "recommendations". You can use much more if you want but you can also get away with less!
With 20klx or ~300μMol/s/m² and a 24/0h rhythm you already have a DLI of ~26Mol/day.
Thats almost flowering intensity cuz for flowering between 30-40Mol/day are recommended.
Observe the plants carefully when you use more light and keep the humidity at around 65-70% in veg to have the VPD in a healthy range. If all these parameters are in check you could use up to 400μMol/s/m²(or even more) which means a min. DLI of ~34,5Mol/day. But its also strain depending how much light a plant can handle and you have to figure out the maximum for each strain. I usually go with only 70-80% of the maximum intensity cuz its much easier to keep the plants happy.

Thanks!! Way over my head! LOL.

Please, if you would share with me your Lux recommendations for early and late veg 24/0 I would greatly appreciate it.

24/0 early vegging: ??
24/0 late vegging: ??
18/6 early vegging: ~15.000lx (220/240μMol/s/m² PPFD)
18/6 late vegging: ~25.000lx(360/400μMol/s/m² PPFD)

Randomblame · Dec 17, 2018

There is no need to convert it into Mol/d. You can also do it without this step and still get fairly accurate results.

You can use simple math..

15klx x 18h=270klx : 24h=11,25klx
25klx x 18h=450klx : 24h=18,75klx

So with 11,25klx for 24h you would get the same amount of light like from 18h with 15,000lx
18,75klx for 24h would be the same like 18h with 25,000lx.

Earlyriser76 · Dec 17, 2018

Randomblame said:
15klx x 18h=270klx : 24h=11,25klx
25klx x 18h=450klx : 24h=18,75klx

Awesome man. Thank you. You're really amazing at this and I really do appreciate it. I also hope what you've said here helps others too.

I just burned 6 of my plants pretty badly after I just spent $250 on Quantum boards so I have been under major stress to sort this out. I appreciate your timely responses.

Based on my understanding of what you've said here I made this simple schedule for myself or anyone else who wants to use it.

Light Schedule ~ Lux

18/6 seeding/cloning: ~10klx
18/6 rooted clone/early vegging: ~15klx
18/6 later (wk3+) vegging: ~20-25klx
12/12 flowering: ~35-40klx
-----------------------------------
24/0 seeding/cloning: ~7klx
24/0 rooted clone/early vegging: ~11klx
24/0 later (wk3+) vegging: ~15-18klx

Slow yellowish growth under vero 29 3000k/3500k

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