So I made myself some CalPhos...

iHearAll · Oct 2, 2016

calliandra said:
Soooo I went to make some compost....

But this
View attachment 3795072
plus this
View attachment 3795077
does not equal 1m³ pile
That's the minimum I'd need as night temperatures are getting closer to freezing here.

The chipper I borrowed is too weak / apparently has some defect, and as I discovered in dismay doesn't "do" anything that isn't bone dry. So pretty much all the greens LOL

Ah fate!
But then again, I was doubting whether to even put a pile together right now - because of the fungi.
All of the materials are from my garden or the surroundings, and all of the soil here is fungally weak.
So if I want a fungally strong compost, and I do, there's still some inoculation to do!

So now I have a pretty little woodchip pile 30cm high and 90 in diameter.
It's made of all the chipped dry garden waste plus some dry leaves and stalks from last year.
View attachment 3795074

View attachment 3795075

I've left it dry for now, thinking to mix more freshly fallen leaves in so at least I have a batch and a bit for a round of thermal compost in the springtime/next summer.
I think I've got a good spot for it, there's a slow compost going on right behind it, and I want to train that rose to make more of a shading roof over it (the boxwood on the left is southeast so provides shade until after midday).
View attachment 3795089

It's going to rain soon too, I think I'll leave it for now to see how hydrophobic this very dry material really is.
Mix it up in a week or so, with some freshly fallen leaves perhaps adding some mycos in.
And then use a small bucketful of that indoors, in my wormbin for one, and to create a nice innoculum that's ready to go for my closet garden (similar temperatures promote growth of those guys who will do well there?).
Thoughts?
Ideas?
Emergency brakes?

Oh, and what C:N ratio would you give these black currant branches?
View attachment 3795073
Cheers!

i think so on the temperature thing. but you could also have a hearty culture in one "superior" temperature (whatever that may be) and then give it to your closet.. then, whatever survives from that colony will take over but without whatever doesnt survive. if you start in a harsh environment you may not get much of anything.

just thinkin

calliandra · Oct 2, 2016

iHearAll said:
i think so on the temperature thing. but you could also have a hearty culture in one "superior" temperature (whatever that may be) and then give it to your closet.. then, whatever survives from that colony will take over but without whatever doesnt survive. if you start in a harsh environment you may not get much of anything.

just thinkin

thanks, it's reassuring to know others are thinking in the same direction too

I'm just kind of "playing it by ear" haha!

I was admiring the pile earlier, added a nice portion of leaves this morning

And looking at it as the rain falls onto the leaves, so nice and fluffy -- this stuff is getting mixed in when the rainy phase ends. Then I'll get to see moisture penetration too, and give the pile some help if needed. I'd just hate it if I kept piling in goodies and come spring I find the lower layers are bone dry and nothing happened.
And yeah I'll take a portion for the innoculation experiments indoors, letting the pile outside progress naturally.
What a microscope fest that will be come spring! :shock:

lol

iHearAll · Oct 2, 2016

calliandra said:
thanks, it's reassuring to know others are thinking in the same direction too
I'm just kind of "playing it by ear" haha!

I was admiring the pile earlier, added a nice portion of leaves this morning
View attachment 3795283

And looking at it as the rain falls onto the leaves, so nice and fluffy -- this stuff is getting mixed in when the rainy phase ends. Then I'll get to see moisture penetration too, and give the pile some help if needed. I'd just hate it if I kept piling in goodies and come spring I find the lower layers are bone dry and nothing happened.
And yeah I'll take a portion for the innoculation experiments indoors, letting the pile outside progress naturally.
What a microscope fest that will be come spring! lol

or the neaerby trees grow roots upwards lol. that used to happen at work with our piles of mulch. the pecan trees would grow roots right through the tarp the mulch compost was on. i mean poor idea by the owner to have a thermophillic reaction on top of plastic buut idk how aware he was when he made the original pile. come to think of it, i have a pile of leaf mold on an old shower liner :wall:

""""

""""". i should probably get rid of the shower liner about now.......

calliandra · Oct 2, 2016

iHearAll said:
or the neaerby trees grow roots upwards lol. that used to happen at work with our piles of mulch. the pecan trees would grow roots right through the tarp the mulch compost was on. i mean poor idea by the owner to have a thermophillic reaction on top of plastic buut idk how aware he was when he made the original pile. come to think of it, i have a pile of leaf mold on an old shower liner """" """"". i should probably get rid of the shower liner about now.......

Yeah may be a good idea - nasty stuff! lol

I do have a few candidates around for poking roots, the rose is most likely as she's right underfoot. Even thought about it for a bit, but decided it wasn't going to be an issue. :mrgreen:

Rashly? We'll see come spring

iHearAll · Oct 2, 2016

calliandra said:
Yeah may be a good idea - nasty stuff! lol

I do have a few candidates around for poking roots, the rose is most likely as she's right underfoot. Even thought about it for a bit, but decided it wasn't going to be an issue. Rashly? We'll see come spring

yea fuck it

calliandra · Oct 3, 2016

Before we turn into earthworms ourselves from all this groveling in the ground, here's our starlet :bigjoint:

Day 20

Water only today

She's getting thirstier and has begun sucking up runoff, for me a sign that the root system is well developed into the soil

And loook at that structure!
It's amazing the way she's pushing her side shoots, kinda breathtaking 8-)

Cheers!

greasemonkeymann · Oct 3, 2016

calliandra said:
Quite so, I've been thinking of @greasemonkeymann alot these days myself (especially when raking leaves lol), but he must be getting swamped with questions, so I've been trying to keep my big girl pants on haha

Thinking on it, possibly what you said about a good environment to thrive in is the key difference to what I've been able to observe with surface compost - which I finally understand is more of a maintenance method for soils that are already great, not so much for build-up purposes. Especially when it comes to fungal recolonization.
So yeah, maybe there are more (useful! - we have enough fungus pests haha) spores around than I have come to believe, and I just wasn't giving them ideal conditions to multiply in...

I definitely am leaving the pile to sit over winter and will keep adding leaves (mainly tilia at the moment, some maple, lilac & buddleja will follow), extra innoculants or no.
I've also stashed the stalkier greens in a pile (the others got mulched), maybe a hedgehog will take a liking to it for winter sleep So in spring I'll already have a base stock of greens to start with.
Cheers!

Hi Calliandra, i'm flattered that you think of me whilst raking leaves, I gotta admit that's the most benign and innocent way any woman has every thought of me..
haha
so one thing i'd mention in regards to the wood piles, is that you'll want to be able to give them at least a calendar year, or past that if you ran all those into a wood chipper and then layered that in even amounts with grass clippings, that'd work, but stick are damn near all carbon, so you need a good amount of greens to offset that.
a slow compost is great for fungal colonies, a shredded, more moist compost is better for bacterial, but in my mind I like to steer the compost to more of a fungal mix, we get plenty of bacterial microbes from the wormbin.
I make three pile normally, the "slow" compost, that's all my garbage, sticks, and such.
then 2 of my cannabis compost pile (the one you are familiar with)
one that is ready, and the other that is being composted.
but wood chips, sticks, and those types of things I reaaaally like to shred first, otherwise they take a LONG time to breakdown.

OH, and try not to even fret about any myco, they don't live in a compost pile with no roots as hosts, and ALL the hungry trichodermas, and such around.
you want to concentrate on only applying myco at transplant, directly on the rootball itself, don't be shy about putting a nice dusting all over it.
I like to spray the rootball with a misting spray bottle to make the myco "stick"

calliandra · Oct 3, 2016

greasemonkeymann said:
Hi Calliandra, i'm flattered that you think of me whilst raking leaves, I gotta admit that's the most benign and innocent way any woman has every thought of me..
haha

That may well be, but then again, you don't know what I was thinking

lol

so one thing i'd mention in regards to the wood piles, is that you'll want to be able to give them at least a calendar year, or past that if you ran all those into a wood chipper and then layered that in even amounts with grass clippings, that'd work, but stick are damn near all carbon, so you need a good amount of greens to offset that.
a slow compost is great for fungal colonies, a shredded, more moist compost is better for bacterial, but in my mind I like to steer the compost to more of a fungal mix, we get plenty of bacterial microbes from the wormbin.
I make three pile normally, the "slow" compost, that's all my garbage, sticks, and such.
then 2 of my cannabis compost pile (the one you are familiar with)
one that is ready, and the other that is being composted.
but wood chips, sticks, and those types of things I reaaaally like to shred first, otherwise they take a LONG time to breakdown.

OH, and try not to even fret about any myco, they don't live in a compost pile with no roots as hosts, and ALL the hungry trichodermas, and such around.
you want to concentrate on only applying myco at transplant, directly on the rootball itself, don't be shy about putting a nice dusting all over it.
I like to spray the rootball with a misting spray bottle to make the myco "stick"

Yes

I can only say, yes - makes total and complete sense, A-Z. :mrgreen:

And yeah I'll save the mycos for when I go to plant something and the flask they're in falls over in the mulch (of course the cap's off haha) - better chances there than in that pile (unless you have a friendly tree willing to grow into your pile and innoculate haha

)

So come spring I will have ample access to nitrogen-rich additions and will thermal compost the pile - and that way be able to use it the same summer - just ordered artichoke seeds and it seems they want rich soil

Meanwhile, I was thinking to moisten the wood chips up a bit, and perhaps cover with a tarp over the winter?
Or maybe just a layer of leaves, they were pretty effective keeping the rain out from under..
Cheers!

greasemonkeymann · Oct 3, 2016

calliandra said:
That may well be, but then again, you don't know what I was thinking lol

greasemonkeymann · Oct 3, 2016

calliandra said:
Meanwhile, I was thinking to moisten the wood chips up a bit, and perhaps cover with a tarp over the winter?
Or maybe just a layer of leaves, they were pretty effective keeping the rain out from under..
Cheers!

Hah!
ok so can you get any alfalfa meal, or feed?
if you can get alfalfa feed from a feed store you can layer that in there, it's a lil "stemmy" but it'll breakdown before the wood does.
my first pile I did 100% without grass clippings so it's possible, you just need to layer it with high nitrogen inputs, fish meal and alfalfa meal work GREAT for that.

I think it's crucial and important to KEEP all your cannabis greens, anything except woody stems.
those can go in the "long" compost with the other sticks and such

calliandra · Oct 3, 2016

greasemonkeymann said:
Hah!
ok so can you get any alfalfa meal, or feed?
if you can get alfalfa feed from a feed store you can layer that in there, it's a lil "stemmy" but it'll breakdown before the wood does.
my first pile I did 100% without grass clippings so it's possible, you just need to layer it with high nitrogen inputs, fish meal and alfalfa meal work GREAT for that.

Woa! you want to make this today?

It's late over here haha

Yeah so I could actually start the composting right away, not sure if thermal? Temps are going to zero here now, how much hi N do you need to keep the pile at 55° overnight?

And then, I'll only need it in the springtime anyways.

Thing is, I had this idea to leave the woodchips to "cure" - usually it's a year, I'll only be giving them the cold months which isn't much - but still! A bit of time in which conditions are not totally uncomfortable for some fungi to spread out. Just plain hanging around ones

Do you think that would help increase fungal content in the compost?

I think it's crucial and important to KEEP all your cannabis greens, anything except woody stems.
those can go in the "long" compost with the other sticks and such

Yeah the leaves.. will mostly end up in my wormbin, which will be my main compost source after I move.
I thought they liked them when I last fed some in anyways...
Can earthworms get stoned? :bigjoint:

calliandra · Oct 3, 2016

greasemonkeymann said:
View attachment 3796204

Haha nice moves :bigjoint:

greasemonkeymann · Oct 3, 2016

calliandra said:
Woa! you want to make this today?
It's late over here haha

Yeah so I could actually start the composting right away, not sure if thermal? Temps are going to zero here now, how much hi N do you need to keep the pile at 55° overnight?
And then, I'll only need it in the springtime anyways.

Thing is, I had this idea to leave the woodchips to "cure" - usually it's a year, I'll only be giving them the cold months which isn't much - but still! A bit of time in which conditions are not totally uncomfortable for some fungi to spread out. Just plain hanging around ones
Do you think that would help increase fungal content in the compost?

Yeah the leaves.. will mostly end up in my wormbin, which will be my main compost source after I move.
I thought they liked them when I last fed some in anyways...
Can earthworms get stoned?

heh, whoops..
my bad.. I run my shop so I get a lil headstrong sometimes..
and a thermal compost will TOTALLY be fine in low temps, if you tarp it..
it'll steam like a mofo.
If its a big enough size the composting procedure will absolutely keep it warm enough, not to mention all that isn't totally crucial to compost a pile.
moisture and nitrogen will feed the microbes enough to where they provide their own heat (fascinating)..
and it's ALREADY down to 0 degrees?!
where do you live?
And if I recall fungi will live in almost any environment, you just want to give them enough moisture and protection from the cold.
in other words, when you make a compost pile you don't need to do anything special at all to "attract" any microbes at all, they are everywhere.
the biggest challenge is keeping your wormbin alive in those temps (which I'd simply bring inside)

greasemonkeymann · Oct 3, 2016

here is a good link on the types and methods for thermal piles
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/Thermal_Compost.html

also some good info on myco too.
a good read for sure

heres another
pretty sure I have these posted elsewhere too
good stuff

http://compost.css.cornell.edu/microorg.html

calliandra · Oct 3, 2016

greasemonkeymann said:
heh, whoops..
my bad.. I run my shop so I get a lil headstrong sometimes..

Not at all, it's great, very manly - and hard to resist haha :-P

and a thermal compost will TOTALLY be fine in low temps, if you tarp it..
it'll steam like a mofo.
If its a big enough size the composting procedure will absolutely keep it warm enough, not to mention all that isn't totally crucial to compost a pile.
moisture and nitrogen will feed the microbes enough to where they provide their own heat (fascinating)..
and it's ALREADY down to 0 degrees?!
where do you live?
And if I recall fungi will live in almost any environment, you just want to give them enough moisture and protection from the cold.
in other words, when you make a compost pile you don't need to do anything special at all to "attract" any microbes at all, they are everywhere.
the biggest challenge is keeping your wormbin alive in those temps (which I'd simply bring inside)

Damn.
Sounds like I really could be doing this, if I had enough material - unfortunately, that and the fact that my hands are still recovering is a limiting factor, added to the fact that I have bad luck with intentional sourcing (I'm more of a gatherer than a hunter haha).
I'll continue looking into it though in this case, as I really like the idea of the micros creating their own (temps) environment. I know a guy who keeps his sheep naturally, maybe I can get some sheep shit, which is supposed to be pretty hot with a C:N ratio of 16, and the lawn (which is clover-grass mix, though it will have less nitrogen now in fall) has a few cm I could get from it too. Plus if I can get the greens the chipper couldn't do chopped by hand I'll have at least a bit of diversity in there too.

But yes it's getting cold fast here in Austria (I live on the western side, amidst the Alps), you never know hereabouts whether it will stay or revert back to warmer temps. Oh btw my 0° is centigrade, just realized how harsh that must sound if you're thinking in F!

We were supposed to get those 0 last night but the weather changed its mind (for now). But it's snowing up on the mountains so it's just a matter of time.

Still a bit worried I won't have enough mass though...
I doubt I can get a cubic foot together, which is the minimum Ingham recommends to guarantee good temps in the middle of the pile.
What if temps don't hold through and the composting breaks down after turning twice?
Could I then use that half compost as woody material in another run in spring to finish it off?
Have you done something like that before?

I could make the pile in the cellar where it has pretty constant 8° (er ~45°F), I only have to move in December so it would have time to finish, however I'm not sure about getting enough air circulation and I'd prefer to make the compost on soil, not a cement floor. Feels cleaner somehow and more natural to wait till spring.

No worries about my wormbin, v2 is about to get built and will be in the kitchen permanently

Ah those links, I've been all over them in the past - but good idea to reread, probably there are details I missed or forgot

Thanks for helping me think this through!

greasemonkeymann · Oct 4, 2016

calliandra said:
Not at all, it's great, very manly - and hard to resist haha

Damn.
Sounds like I really could be doing this, if I had enough material - unfortunately, that and the fact that my hands are still recovering is a limiting factor, added to the fact that I have bad luck with intentional sourcing (I'm more of a gatherer than a hunter haha).
I'll continue looking into it though in this case, as I really like the idea of the micros creating their own (temps) environment. I know a guy who keeps his sheep naturally, maybe I can get some sheep shit, which is supposed to be pretty hot with a C:N ratio of 16, and the lawn (which is clover-grass mix, though it will have less nitrogen now in fall) has a few cm I could get from it too. Plus if I can get the greens the chipper couldn't do chopped by hand I'll have at least a bit of diversity in there too.

But yes it's getting cold fast here in Austria (I live on the western side, amidst the Alps), you never know hereabouts whether it will stay or revert back to warmer temps. Oh btw my 0° is centigrade, just realized how harsh that must sound if you're thinking in F! We were supposed to get those 0 last night but the weather changed its mind (for now). But it's snowing up on the mountains so it's just a matter of time.

Still a bit worried I won't have enough mass though...
I doubt I can get a cubic foot together, which is the minimum Ingham recommends to guarantee good temps in the middle of the pile.
What if temps don't hold through and the composting breaks down after turning twice?
Could I then use that half compost as woody material in another run in spring to finish it off?
Have you done something like that before?

I could make the pile in the cellar where it has pretty constant 8° (er ~45°F), I only have to move in December so it would have time to finish, however I'm not sure about getting enough air circulation and I'd prefer to make the compost on soil, not a cement floor. Feels cleaner somehow and more natural to wait till spring.

No worries about my wormbin, v2 is about to get built and will be in the kitchen permanently
Ah those links, I've been all over them in the past - but good idea to reread, probably there are details I missed or forgot
Thanks for helping me think this through!

Ahhh, well 0 degrees centigrade is still frosty, but yea, i was thinking farenheit.
And wow, aren't you lucky
Austria is amazingly beautiful! Arguably the most beautiful area on the planet
If Donald Trump gets voted in, can I marry you and become a citizen?
It's either that or I gotta marry a crazy Canadian girl...
how does that work?
Your husband won't mind right?
i'm respectful of boundries...
I can cook like a mofo, and my pitbull doesn't fart all thaaaat much, plus the bright side is we could in theory harness her hydrocarbon emissions and maybe create heat...

All kidding aside, you don't NEED to have an extended thermophilic process, mine got shortened last year when California got those bigass storms, hell a lot of my nutrients were probably wasted, via ammonia gasoff, it got sludgey down at the bottom of the pile, anaerobic leaves and such..
anyways so my thermocompost only lasted maybe 8 days, it did sorta get toasty after it stopped raining and I REamended with grass clippings, and turned.
but it wasn't a true thermocompost at that point, that was merely just from the bioactivity, it was maybe 105 deg in there
It can get up to 130/140, and THAT is where you seem some steam going, my first pile I had it hot for damn near month, in near freezing temps.
i's turn it in the morning before opening shop and warm my hands from the steam

calliandra · Oct 4, 2016

greasemonkeymann said:
Ahhh, well 0 degrees centigrade is still frosty, but yea, i was thinking farenheit.
And wow, aren't you lucky
Austria is amazingly beautiful! Arguably the most beautiful area on the planet
If Donald Trump gets voted in, can I marry you and become a citizen?
It's either that or I gotta marry a crazy Canadian girl...
how does that work?
Your husband won't mind right?
i'm respectful of boundries...
I can cook like a mofo, and my pitbull doesn't fart all thaaaat much, plus the bright side is we could in theory harness her hydrocarbon emissions and maybe create heat...

All kidding aside, you don't NEED to have an extended thermophilic process, mine got shortened last year when California got those bigass storms, hell a lot of my nutrients were probably wasted, via ammonia gasoff, it got sludgey down at the bottom of the pile, anaerobic leaves and such..
anyways so my thermocompost only lasted maybe 8 days, it did sorta get toasty after it stopped raining and I REamended with grass clippings, and turned.
but it wasn't a true thermocompost at that point, that was merely just from the bioactivity, it was maybe 105 deg in there
It can get up to 130/140, and THAT is where you seem some steam going, my first pile I had it hot for damn near month, in near freezing temps.
i's turn it in the morning before opening shop and warm my hands from the steam

HOW in the world can I focus on compost in the light of such a proposal?!

...when are the US elections again? :bigjoint:

DonBrennon · Oct 4, 2016

greasemonkeymann said:
Ahhh, well 0 degrees centigrade is still frosty, but yea, i was thinking farenheit.
And wow, aren't you lucky
Austria is amazingly beautiful! Arguably the most beautiful area on the planet
If Donald Trump gets voted in, can I marry you and become a citizen?
It's either that or I gotta marry a crazy Canadian girl...
how does that work?
Your husband won't mind right?
i'm respectful of boundries...
I can cook like a mofo, and my pitbull doesn't fart all thaaaat much, plus the bright side is we could in theory harness her hydrocarbon emissions and maybe create heat...

All kidding aside, you don't NEED to have an extended thermophilic process, mine got shortened last year when California got those bigass storms, hell a lot of my nutrients were probably wasted, via ammonia gasoff, it got sludgey down at the bottom of the pile, anaerobic leaves and such..
anyways so my thermocompost only lasted maybe 8 days, it did sorta get toasty after it stopped raining and I REamended with grass clippings, and turned.
but it wasn't a true thermocompost at that point, that was merely just from the bioactivity, it was maybe 105 deg in there
It can get up to 130/140, and THAT is where you seem some steam going, my first pile I had it hot for damn near month, in near freezing temps.
i's turn it in the morning before opening shop and warm my hands from the steam

Update on the compost I did....................worked great............didn't accurately measure temps, but it got right up to temp and gradually settled with regular turning.

It'd been sat for about a month, maturing and full of worms, 'trying' to cut a long story short, I'd started a mealworm farm with the intention of making my own frass, while giving me food for my carnivorous plants and my mates chickens.............. Mates chickens got ate by fox, I gave away my VF traps..............no need for the mealworms or all the bedding(organic oats, already filled with insect frass and loads of shed exoskeletons{chitin})..................So, on a whim, thought It'd be a great idea to just tip it into my compost pile and turn it in.

Next day my compost pile was steaming like a huge pile of manure would, I had to turn it twice a day for 4 days to keep temps under control and I've been turning it every day since(3 days), it's just settling down again now.

Do ya think I've screwed it, or just added more goodies to the party?

calliandra · Oct 4, 2016

greasemonkeymann said:
Ahhh, well 0 degrees centigrade is still frosty, but yea, i was thinking farenheit.
And wow, aren't you lucky
Austria is amazingly beautiful! Arguably the most beautiful area on the planet
If Donald Trump gets voted in, can I marry you and become a citizen?
It's either that or I gotta marry a crazy Canadian girl...
how does that work?
Your husband won't mind right?
i'm respectful of boundries...
I can cook like a mofo, and my pitbull doesn't fart all thaaaat much, plus the bright side is we could in theory harness her hydrocarbon emissions and maybe create heat...

All kidding aside, you don't NEED to have an extended thermophilic process, mine got shortened last year when California got those bigass storms, hell a lot of my nutrients were probably wasted, via ammonia gasoff, it got sludgey down at the bottom of the pile, anaerobic leaves and such..
anyways so my thermocompost only lasted maybe 8 days, it did sorta get toasty after it stopped raining and I REamended with grass clippings, and turned.
but it wasn't a true thermocompost at that point, that was merely just from the bioactivity, it was maybe 105 deg in there
It can get up to 130/140, and THAT is where you seem some steam going, my first pile I had it hot for damn near month, in near freezing temps.
i's turn it in the morning before opening shop and warm my hands from the steam

OK right, compost haha

Sounds terrible, what happened to that pile in the storms, I imagine that even after it dried out there were still microbial traces of that event for a good while. My reasoning is that sooner or later nature takes care of it in any case, without the heat it just takes longer, and you have to be content with having viable seeds in your soil. Something I don't mind at all, actually I love having stuff coming up as ground cover and mulches all on their own. less work for me :mrgreen:

So when you went to use that pile eventually, did you notice anything about it or was it as good as?

Now 130/140 is good going, and if you got that in your freezing, I will get it easily in mine?
Maan you're gonna have to learn centigrade and metrics over here...

But the real question is how the emissions could be harvested without compromising your pitbull's wellbeing and freedom of movement?

greasemonkeymann · Oct 4, 2016

iHearAll said:
or the neaerby trees grow roots upwards lol. that used to happen at work with our piles of mulch. the pecan trees would grow roots right through the tarp the mulch compost was on. i mean poor idea by the owner to have a thermophillic reaction on top of plastic buut idk how aware he was when he made the original pile. come to think of it, i have a pile of leaf mold on an old shower liner """" """"". i should probably get rid of the shower liner about now.......

as you guys probably know, I lost about 50% of my compost to the redwoods roots.
Trees don't mess around.. when they get food? They SUUUUCK it up faster than you can compost it.

So I made myself some CalPhos...

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