So you want to be a libertarian

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
I don't like the fair tax for several reasons but mainly because I beleive it will be used as a control system. As it is writen its ok as far as taxes go and I believe it is constitutional. However I think they will use it to track your purchases. Just my 2 cents.
They wouldn't, you're not going to be asked for a tax id when you make purchases. It'd be just like the sales taxes that the states have, except the tax is embedded in the cost of the item (thus the confusion over the percentage.)

There would be no tax card carried by Americans, and the only thing that they might track your purchases with would be the prebate cards every household would get.

The FairTax is probably the most honest tax system introduced since the income tax. Instead of taxing income it taxes consumption. Fair, equitable, and it also does away with taxes below the poverty level (the monthly prebates make sure that no one is taxed on normal purchases below a certain income threshhold.)

It would also lead to encouraging more savings, and less borrowing, but savings would still be taxed, but only if they are used to purchase consumeable goods.
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
Like I said The way it is writen I'm not really agenst it. But you know the Dems will want to make it progressive and will not want to be sending out checks every month. Thats what I'm afraid off. Other then that I really got no bitch.
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
A flat tax is still an income tax or a tax on wages and labor, and needs an IRS. Look at the IRS's budget I think about $50 billion why do that when the states already have a sales tax system in place we can tap into with no IRS. Or minimal IRS still need a much redused one to do SS medicare taxes. And If I don't want to pay taxes I don't have to buy shit.

Yeah what happens if I can go through the month without buying anything grow my own food just my bills how would they do the Pre-bate?
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Exactly...if you don't buy anything you won't have to pay any income tax.... let me know how that works.... don't worry, I'll flip you a tall boy if I catch you on the corner with a sign.

out. :blsmoke:
 

WoldofWeedcraft

Well-Known Member
Exactly...if you don't buy anything you won't have to pay any income tax.... let me know how that works.... don't worry, I'll flip you a tall boy if I catch you on the corner with a sign.

out. :blsmoke:
Don't worry those thousands of single women on welfare would still have their Coach bags that came out of someone's trunk. :lol:

Those who make the most tend to spend more. At least with the fair tax the wealthy who manage all the tax breaks through loopholes will be treated/taxed the same as the middle class or anyone else.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
That's correct.

However let's be honest, flat tax is a no go for now. If you wish to have more revenue almost any serious economist will tell you to lower the rate.

If you raise rates to a high level, human nature kicks in. If I stand to lose manymany thousands of NEW dollars, i will carry the cost of using a PRO to lower my payout, even though the PRO'S bill will hurt me. However if rates are low, heck everyone just cuts a check, and less loopholes are run through. If you close all the loopholes, people will simply find a way to get that money out of country.

out. :blsmoke:
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
Not for long I will bet you part of this global new deal will do away with the offshore hiding places. After I pay my bills what the hell else am I gonna need besides some food. We're only talking one month here. The lower tax rate gets more money because it spurs growth in the economy. Thats why Ron Paul wanted to do away with income taxes. Think about the growth in real wealth if that happened.

But then we gotta stop the wars and the spending. It would mean cutting the budget back to 1999-2000 levels but I think we could do that.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Like I said The way it is writen I'm not really agenst it. But you know the Dems will want to make it progressive and will not want to be sending out checks every month. Thats what I'm afraid off. Other then that I really got no bitch.
Yeah, you're right the problem is the Democrats, and other "Progressives" who would want to carve exemption after exemption in, and thus defeat the purpose which is to tax consumption.

They'd probably insist on carving exemptions for food, and gas into it, under the guise of progressiveness, ignoring the fact that the entire idea of the prebates is to make sure that no one is subjected to paying taxes on purchases that would be "mandatory" to remain at the poverty level.

Of course, that's because the are idiots, who can't understand that the beauty of the system is that it's simple, and would lead to a massive influx of capital back into the United States, an industrial revival as companies flood back in with new plants and offices to escape income taxes in other nations.

In short, the United States would see a Commercial and Industrial revival that would lead to our economy spurring forward in growth...

Though, I'm probably preaching to the choir at this point, so I'll stop.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
That's correct.

However let's be honest, flat tax is a no go for now. If you wish to have more revenue almost any serious economist will tell you to lower the rate.

If you raise rates to a high level, human nature kicks in. If I stand to lose manymany thousands of NEW dollars, i will carry the cost of using a PRO to lower my payout, even though the PRO'S bill will hurt me. However if rates are low, heck everyone just cuts a check, and less loopholes are run through. If you close all the loopholes, people will simply find a way to get that money out of country.

out. :blsmoke:
I don't like the idea of a flat tax, same problem the fair tax would face, idiot Democrats.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
The tenets of libertarianism put foward on this site are the ramblings of some childish self centered individual that when cornered, go on the attack calling names and chiding the poster for being Naive. I will attempt to de-bunk these childish assertions:
This is no surprise, as libertarianism is basically the Marxism of the Right. If Marxism is the delusion that one can run society purely on altruism and collectivism, then libertarianism is the mirror-image delusion that one can run it purely on selfishness and individualism. Society in fact requires both individualism and collectivism, both selfishness and altruism, to function. Like Marxism, libertarianism offers the fraudulent intellectual security of a complete a priori account of the political good without the effort of empirical investigation. Like Marxism, it aspires, overtly or covertly, to reduce social life to economics. And like Marxism, it has its historical myths and a genius for making its followers feel like an elect unbound by the moral rules of their society.
The most fundamental problem with libertarianism is very simple: freedom, though a good thing, is simply not the only good thing in life. Simple physical security, which even a prisoner can possess, is not freedom, but one cannot live without it. Prosperity is connected to freedom, in that it makes us free to consume, but it is not the same thing, in that one can be rich but as unfree as a Victorian tycoon’s wife. A family is in fact one of the least free things imaginable, as the emotional satisfactions of it derive from relations that we are either born into without choice or, once they are chosen, entail obligations that we cannot walk away from with ease or justice. But security, prosperity, and family are in fact the bulk of happiness for most real people and the principal issues that concern governments.
Libertarians try to get around this fact that freedom is not the only good thing by trying to reduce all other goods to it through the concept of choice, claiming that everything that is good is so because we choose to partake of it. Therefore freedom, by giving us choice, supposedly embraces all other goods. But this violates common sense by denying that anything is good by nature, independently of whether we choose it. Nourishing foods are good for us by nature, not because we choose to eat them. Taken to its logical conclusion, the reduction of the good to the freely chosen means there are no inherently good or bad choices at all, but that a man who chose to spend his life playing tiddlywinks has lived as worthy a life as a Washington or a Churchill.
Furthermore, the reduction of all goods to individual choices presupposes that all goods are individual. But some, like national security, clean air, or a healthy culture, are inherently collective. It may be possible to privatize some, but only some, and the efforts can be comically inefficient. Do you really want to trace every pollutant in the air back to the factory that emitted it and sue?
Libertarians rightly concede that one’s freedom must end at the point at which it starts to impinge upon another person’s, but they radically underestimate how easily this happens. So even if the libertarian principle of “an it harm none, do as thou wilt,” is true, it does not license the behavior libertarians claim. Consider pornography: libertarians say it should be permitted because if someone doesn’t like it, he can choose not to view it. But what he can’t do is choose not to live in a culture that has been vulgarized by it.
Libertarians in real life rarely live up to their own theory but tend to indulge in the pleasant parts while declining to live up to the difficult portions. They flout the drug laws but continue to collect government benefits they consider illegitimate. This is not just an accidental failing of libertarianism’s believers but an intrinsic temptation of the doctrine that sets it up to fail whenever tried, just like Marxism.
Libertarians need to be asked some hard questions. What if a free society needed to draft its citizens in order to remain free? What if it needed to limit oil imports to protect the economic freedom of its citizens from unfriendly foreigners? What if it needed to force its citizens to become sufficiently educated to sustain a free society? What if it needed to deprive landowners of the freedom to refuse to sell their property as a precondition for giving everyone freedom of movement on highways? What if it needed to deprive citizens of the freedom to import cheap foreign labor in order to keep out poor foreigners who would vote for socialistic wealth redistribution?
In each of these cases, less freedom today is the price of more tomorrow. Total freedom today would just be a way of running down accumulated social capital and storing up problems for the future. So even if libertarianism is true in some ultimate sense, this does not prove that the libertarian policy choice is the right one today on any particular question.
Furthermore, if limiting freedom today may prolong it tomorrow, then limiting freedom tomorrow may prolong it the day after and so on, so the right amount of freedom may in fact be limited freedom in perpetuity. But if limited freedom is the right choice, then libertarianism, which makes freedom an absolute, is simply wrong. If all we want is limited freedom, then mere liberalism will do, or even better, a Burkean conservatism that reveres traditional liberties. There is no need to embrace outright libertarianism just because we want a healthy portion of freedom, and the alternative to libertarianism is not the USSR, it is America’s traditional liberties.
Libertarianism’s abstract and absolutist view of freedom leads to bizarre conclusions. Like slavery, libertarianism would have to allow one to sell oneself into it. (It has been possible at certain times in history to do just that by assuming debts one could not repay.) And libertarianism degenerates into outright idiocy when confronted with the problem of children, whom it treats like adults, supporting the abolition of compulsory education and all child-specific laws, like those against child labor and child sex. It likewise cannot handle the insane and the senile.
Libertarians argue that radical permissiveness, like legalizing drugs, would not shred a libertarian society because drug users who caused trouble would be disciplined by the threat of losing their jobs or homes if current laws that make it difficult to fire or evict people were abolished. They claim a “natural order” of reasonable behavior would emerge. But there is no actual empirical proof that this would happen. Furthermore, this means libertarianism is an all-or-nothing proposition: if society continues to protect people from the consequences of their actions in any way, libertarianism regarding specific freedoms is illegitimate. And since society does so protect people, libertarianism is an illegitimate moral position until the Great Libertarian Revolution has occurred.
And is society really wrong to protect people against the negative consequences of some of their free choices? While it is obviously fair to let people enjoy the benefits of their wise choices and suffer the costs of their stupid ones, decent societies set limits on both these outcomes. People are allowed to become millionaires, but they are taxed. They are allowed to go broke, but they are not then forced to starve. They are deprived of the most extreme benefits of freedom in order to spare us the most extreme costs. The libertopian alternative would be perhaps a more glittering society, but also a crueler one.
Empirically, most people don’t actually want absolute freedom, which is why democracies don’t elect libertarian governments. Irony of ironies, people don’t choose absolute freedom. But this refutes libertarianism by its own premise, as libertarianism defines the good as the freely chosen, yet people do not choose it. Paradoxically, people exercise their freedom not to be libertarians.
The political corollary of this is that since no electorate will support libertarianism, a libertarian government could never be achieved democratically but would have to be imposed by some kind of authoritarian state, which rather puts the lie to libertarians’ claim that under any other philosophy, busybodies who claim to know what’s best for other people impose their values on the rest of us. Libertarianism itself is based on the conviction that it is the one true political philosophy and all others are false. It entails imposing a certain kind of society, with all its attendant pluses and minuses, which the inhabitants thereof will not be free to opt out of except by leaving.
And if libertarians ever do acquire power, we may expect a farrago of bizarre policies. Many support abolition of government-issued money in favor of that minted by private banks. But this has already been tried, in various epochs, and doesn’t lead to any wonderful paradise of freedom but only to an explosion of fraud and currency debasement followed by the concentration of financial power in those few banks that survive the inevitable shaking-out. Many other libertarian schemes similarly founder on the empirical record.There's lots more, but I'll save it for the next post!
I can't help but notice this was originally posted 11-26-2006. However, what I really can't help but notice is the plagiarism. Nowhere does he mention that the actual author of this piece is Robert Locke writing for the American Conservative.

http://www.amconmag.com/article/2005/mar/14/00017/

L.O.-fucking-L!
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
HAH, I freakin new it!! I knew that was writen by a damn Neo-Con. Talking about just the right amount of freedom leave it to a God-Damn Nazi to say something like that.

See I told you MedMan was a "Conservative" LOL. Hes resorted to using "Conservative Literature" Ageinst Libritarians LOL. Not to mention that whole artical is BS. I could tell he was talking about a "strong culture" Nazis were all about a strong culture. Altruism, Collectivism, Restricted freedom, This is the road to hell. Altruism when forced at the barrel of a gun is not Altrusim. Collectivism is simply Terranical democrasy manipulated through the media and public oppinion and has little to no place in a republic. Restricted Freedom I don't see any logic in restricting the rights we have from birth, like speach (free speach zones) Guns (HR45) And a mess of other shit we now have to put up with in the name of preserving liberty.

Some of this shit is down-right funny like: It may be possible to privatize some, but only some, and the efforts can be comically inefficient. Do you really want to trace every pollutant in the air back to the factory that emitted it and sue?

Why yes I do I want people held responsable for their actions if that means that PG&E is dumping heavy metals into the ground water yeah. I want it traced right back to them and I want them sued up one side and down the other. They have violated my property rights they have dumped their shit in such a way as to poses a danger to me and my kids yes I want them sued. Because if I can't sue the next logical thing for me to do is blow up the PG&E plant, FORCE.

This is his enviromental arguement?? Keep doing what the EPA does now?? Sell permits to polute, thats what they do, is that right??

Damn neo-cons
 

max420thc

Well-Known Member
what is it that gentlemen wish?
what would they have?
is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery!!!!
forbid it almighty god!!!!
i know not what course others may take!!!
but as for me! give me liberty or give me death!!!!
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
Libertarians need to be asked some hard questions. What if a free society needed to draft its citizens in order to remain free? What if it needed to limit oil imports to protect the economic freedom of its citizens from unfriendly foreigners? What if it needed to force its citizens to become sufficiently educated to sustain a free society? What if it needed to deprive landowners of the freedom to refuse to sell their property as a precondition for giving everyone freedom of movement on highways?

If it had to draft people to defend its borders in this day in age then its not worth defending. People would defend the nation Volintarily with a profesional army if they were justly defending their nation. Lets face some very real facts ok, this is not 1939 the day of massive 3 million man armys clashing over a 500 mile front are over. This nation wastes trillions building machines like aircraft carriers that are obsolete 1 small nuke and its by by $10 billion and 6000 men. Who could best just our submarine forces?? Nobody thats who. We could level the freaking planet with 6 nuclear armed sub's from port! Who can best us, who could lay us low? Besides our own adventurism and economic stupidity.

What economic freedom must we defend? If the market is working properly they can't aford to not sell to us, at a reasonable price. How else can they feed their people?

Force its citizens to be educated to maintain a free society? really? Is that what we are doing now? You could have fooled me. Seems more like we systematicly dumb them down to have a less free society.

So if the government wants to take your land for a highway its ok for them to do so? In the case of highways or aqua-ducts I can see Eminant domain sort of. But the Government doesn't use it for that now days. They use it to seize your land and hand it off to a 3rd party for them to do what they want with it. Although they have I think started to shut that down via the SCOTUS. I say everything has a price and the government should be willing to pay that price thats how the market works. I know in Texas their were people who had land in their family for 300 years given to them by the King of Spain. And the Government was going to take it and give it back to the King of Spains construction company. This is text book Fascism government action to benifit private buisness. You go and reason with someone and say look we need to build this highway, across your property we will be willing to hear your just demands for the property. Otherwise fuck the government and their damn highway. Because the Market value of this property just went threw the fuckin roof didn't it.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
Med holds a select few, firm Conservative beliefs. However, I would not refer to him as the C-word. I would call him enlightened on those issues.

His using Locke's article in the American Conservative Magazine to get his points across is an example of the old saw, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Med man just has no anchor...the tides sway him to and fro. You don't have to have a party affiliation to be accurate, but you do need to be able to digest data, not spin.

out. :blsmoke:
 

Olstinker

Active Member
Maybe I should start, as I havent been stoned since I started posting! And there you have it, you've taken a vote, all the libs have voted to stop the incessant truth telling about libertarianism. I can see why the rich guys want to be left to their taxless demise, but a young dude like you with a family to support, I don't get the lib thing! Anyway, I guess I'm the only voice of reason on this site. Someone has to tell the viewers there is an alternative to greed by rich plutocrats. I'm awfully concerned why there are not more concerned individuals here. Does everyone on this site agree that greed and profit are the driving force in living free. I just don't get it. seems to me someone would agree with me a little. Has this site been so contaminated with the prophets of greed that there is no counter posting allowed. To be told that my posts are childish and naive because I question the libertarian creedo is extremely annoying, and if that is the way you guys want to play then i will extend my libertarian bashing to almost every post!
The only voice of reason? Wow...
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Yes Med man is truly a lone voice of reason. He's flat out against personal responsibility and gung ho for the nanny state. waaah... feed me, clothe me, fix my booboo, read my contracts, cut my yard, walk my dog...etc. etc. Now that is using reason huh. Protect me from myself.

out. :blsmoke:
 

Gastanker

Well-Known Member
Socially liberal and fiscally conservative. What is wrong with that? But then some people are lazy and judgemental...guess we should change the world for them.
 
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