Soil Food Web Gardening with Compost Teas

Agsil 16 is the same thing as Pro-Tekt in powder form, much cheaper Agsil 16

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Potassium silicate is found naturally, Basalt contains this mineral compound. The problem is, as usual, that the cost of extracting it is prohibitive.

USDA NOP (National Organic Program) has a general regulation known as 205.208(e) (link) which covers bio-pesticides and bio-fungicides including mineral compounds.

Chemical compounds are contained in a database known as Chemical Abstracts Service (CAS) which is part of the American Chemical Society. The listing for Synthetic Potassium Silicate is CAS # 1312-76-1

Under the general blanket regulation noted above, synthetic Potassium Silicate is approved with this stipulation:
Quote:
The silica used in the manufacture of potassium silicate must be sourced from naturally occuring sand. May be used if the requirements of 205.206(e) are met.
AgSil 16H from PQ Corporation was the product that brought about this ruling by USDA NOP whereas prior to that, synthetic sources were prohibited. Their application and final approval allowed if the restrictions were met.

All from my friend Coot

Wolverine97 said:

I had to take a break from the forums for a while. It was getting really stale for me. Try to help, some random doodz say nuh uh, blah blah, lather rinse repeat... *wanking motion*
Actually, I took a break from the op for a bit as well, but that could only last so long.

How's it with you? Things going well?

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I understand. My op is down until fall. I'm moving. Other than that, just trying to be a messenger. Very cool to see you. I always loved your avatar.

ahh rrog you found the U of Florida link I was looking for...kudos! too many links to sort through...need to organize better along with my notes...

spliff - i wouldn't use meta-k for multiple reasons. 1 - i am inherently opposed to and EJ product. 2 - 0-0-10 seems like a dangerous amount of potash. 3. all potassium silicate is the same, a.k.a. there is no such thing as "organic" or "synthetic" potassium silicate. there is just potassium silicate. at least that is my understanding..

agsil 16 is probably the easiest/best, but I don't have the cash for that yet...soon

Cann said:

This is why protekt (potassium silicate) would be used: http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/2010/06/silica-the-hidden-cost-of-chemicals/

an extremely overlooked aspect of gardening IMO..

rising moon is correct however about the horsetail or dandelion containing high levels of silica as well...right now I am too busy/lazy to make a FPE of sorts, so I choose protekt...works for me and I consider it to be an acceptable bottled supplement (along with ful-power, preservative free aloe, and thats about it at this point...)

also yes, alfalfa at week 7 flower is questionable due to the triacontanol..but hell, 1/2 cup is a lot better than 2-3 cups lol! talk about a flowering delay...my bad on that though, was a little too medicated . I just used that tea at week 3 flower cause some of my ladies were starting to fade and it will be my final application of anything alfalfa related.

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I was just being a sarcastic ass, nothing but respect Cann!

Keep sharing the wisdom.

thanks risingmoon...its nice to have you keeping us in check with real world solutions instead of bottled (or powder) products. and by real world solutions I mean plants of course.

so how much horsetail or dandelion would you add per gallon of h2o to mimic the effects of agsil or protekt? very curious...


also, rrog - the agsil on that link is sold out, great price tho. do you know anywhere else that stocks it in small amounts? I can easily drop $10 on some agsil at this point...

...I don't. Just Protekt

...........

So I'm digging my worms roll in the 30 gallon smart pot. Feedin' 'em Bokashi. No fuss, no muss, no smell. I have been adding amendments as I would for soil. Biochar, crab shell, kelp so far. Going slow with the amendments. Worms orgies around the Bokashi. Oh to be a worm...

glad you're "digging" your verm friends, they will return all of that love back to you in the form of amazing castings. Just picked up another 100lbs of castings locally this stuff is screened to 1/4 not 1/8 so its chock full of cocoons, baby worms, and even a few juveniles who slipped through the screen. In a single handful I counted 15 baby worms, 1 juvenile, and about 10 cocoons gon' have a lot of worms soon. I was doing the math with the reproductive cycle of red worms and it seems you can go from about 2,000 worms to over 400,000 in a year in good conditions...even more than that if you really have it dialed in. lots of potential...


on a totally random note - how much do you guys pay attention about cleanliness in the grow room? do you wear your outside shoes in to the grow room? do you change clothes before going in? wash hands? (and feet if you're a barefoot hippy like me...) i am curious as to how organic growers approach their indoor environment. should we be worried about bringing anything in from the outside if we are already mimicking outdoor conditions inside? obviously it is different for those not running a living soil...but if we are running a living soil what are the concerns? curious as to how others approach this...

I follow the method of Maria Thun, biodynamic farmer, and I literally brew up a tea on the stovetop. She doesn't specifically add the dandelion leaves like I do, but it's the same concept.

I usually take 1/4 a cup each of horsetail, dandelion leaf, red clover flowers,yarrow,wakame kelp, also one tbs of molasses per 1/4 gallon of RO water.

Brew on low heat for 15 or 20, and your kitchen will smell beautiful.

Strain, cool and dilute 1:5

Foilar feed to promote growth, prevent disease/fungi and increase sensitivity to cosmic forces.

About cleandlyness...

For the sake of my patients, professionalism and less stressfull working environment, keep it clean!

Wash your hands, or feet, and try to keep your tools, buckets or anything else that may harbor the unwanted organisms clean.

I was considering lab coats...

Rising Moon, no offense to Thun, certainly, but I would speculate that the enormous quantities of hormones, secondary metabolites and enzymes are being destroyed when cooked. Even if cold water extracted, they only last a short time. Aloe starts to poop after 20 minutes of exposure to air.

There's no question what Maria has you doing is enormously beneficial, I just hate to see these incredibly useful molecules destroyed. If you did the exact same thing in a bucket of cool water for a day or two with a little bubbler, you'd get an extract that has much of what you are currently extracting plus the metabolites, etc.

Heck, you could do the cold water extraction (tea), strain, then take the vegetation and boil at that time for whatever might remain per Thun.

Just a Saturday morning opinion.

Everything I have read seems to indicate boiling for 15 min to get maximum effectiveness.

While I do also use raw solutions like you mentioned, the technique I mentioned above was created by folks with TONS more experiance, experimental testing and general earth/cosmic know how than most others alive today.

And, I trust that farmers such as Maria Thun and Hugh Courtney, who have dedicated their lives to the pursuit of healing the Earth, Biodynamics and Spritual science wouldnt lead me astray...

Herbalists don't seem to feel that medicinal herbs loose the good they contain when we brew them up and drink them.

I'm just telling you, that the molecules I'm discussing very real and are fleeting and fragile and I do not at all believe they are likely to survive a boil extraction.

And again, no offense, but herbalists can be like stoners in that they rely on each other rather than lab data.

this might help... http://microbiologyprocesses.blogspot.com/2011/12/primary-and-secondary-metabolites.html

too much for me to read right now, but I'm sure it's full of good info on primary + secondary metabolites. heres another one about soil enzymes

http://rd.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-14225-3_2


and this one is actually pretty awesome: http://soilquality.org/indicators/soil_enzymes.html


props to CC for all these links and more...time to do some homework

I agree as well. And that's why I use the herbs in their raw form, fermented form, composted form, vermicomposted form and traditionally brewed on the stove.

I was just pointing out that I'm not pulling this stuff out of nowhere, and the technique is used by farmers practicing pre industrial agriculture, and putting modern science to shame in many aspects. Also, Horsetail obviously doesn't loose it's effectiveness as an anti-fungal after brewing, because this is the main reason it is sprayed on Biodynamic farms and vineyards. And I use it every year to control PM on squash, works perfect.

Has anyone read "The Secrects of the Soil" ?

Or "The Agriculture Coarse" by Ruldolf Stiener ?

The Stiener book is the HEAVIEST book on Agriculture, Earth Dynamics and our place in the cosmos that I have ever read.

It continuously blows my mind, and is truly a Trogen Horse for our societies of the future...

I hear the Steiner book is heavily influenced upon Steiners own view of the world, rather than actual science. I hear of rituals and bio-dynamics being referred to as a religion in this book and I just wanted to seek your opinion, Rising Moon. I'm not opposed to religion or spirituality and I do indeed have an open mind.

I am what I consider to be completely new to organic gardening. I've read a fair share of text concerning organics but I would definitely like to increase my technical know-how (composing soil, worm culture, composting, advanced techniques (bokashi, ACT...)etc.

I've read just about every book you can find on "OMGARDZ GROW DA BEZT MARYJANEZ" and a couple others, including Teaming with Microbes and Worms Eat My Garbage (a really easy read for anyone who wants to know more about composting).

Thanks for the information being shared here and thank you, kindly for answering any of my questions.

Definetly not science.

If you have trouble swallowing the idea of a clairvoyant philosopher seeing the interworkings of nature, spirits and energy, then I would not recommend the books of Steiner.

That being said, I know an old Biodynamic vegetable/strawberry farmer in Oregon, that says he "doesn't believe in that hocus pocus energy crap, but biodynamic preps really work, and my crops are getting better every year." This coming from an organic farmer of 20 years, having watched his crops reach a steady state, with traditional organic techniques, and then seeing INCREDIBLE results after 3 years of Biodynamic preps added to his fertility program.

No cults or religious beliefs needed. Just results.

Rising Moon- Is there a recipe in there for seed sprout tea? Like Barley or corn sprouts. The sprouts are putting out enormous growth hormones and enzymes. Diluted 15:1 is Great for foliar or soil drench. I betcha there's something similar in there