Soil NPK, what are we really getting for our money?

LegendaryG · Jan 4, 2021

I'm no expert when it comes to the NPK analysis on a specialty bag of soil, but 10 years ago when Vermifire came out, their N level was a solid 2 printed on the front of their bags. Now I see photos of their bags of soil on their website with the NPK number being 1.6-1-.6.

I have been using this soil since they came out always cutting it so it isn't so "hot" and have always had great mostly bug free results for getting plants going.

If you look at their website their bags clearly have printed
1.6-1-.6 for NPK printed directly under the name Vermifire.

The bags I just received don't have any numbers printed on the front anymore, but on the back it says guaranteed analysis 0.17%-0.11%-0.14%.

Am I missing something here or is Vermifire lacking the "fire" it used to have? Am I supposed to believe they have "watered down" the recipe with coco and perlite or am I missing something about the mysteriously disappearing numbers from the front of the bag and leaving only the analysis on the back.

This is an extremely important topic for me because I have no way of getting good bag soil where I live for indoor growing. Shipping is so high that the only soil that makes sense to pay $50 a bag including shipping is and always has been the "hot" Vermifire. That way I can go to the local feed store and "cool" the soil down with pro-mix and turn 1 bag of soil into 3. What am I missing here? Do the numbers they print on the front not have to correlate with the guaranteed analysis?

I asked Hawthorne(the producers of Vermicrop products) and they told me that eventually the NPK numbers are going to be removed from ALL bagged potting soils because there is no way to keep it the same batch to batch. I asked if the bags of soil I just received that have a guaranteed N analysis of 0.17% will be as hot as the bags of soil I used 10 years ago that had an N level of 2 and he said yes. Is it possible they are just switching up compost for more slow release chemical fertilizers? I understand that guaranteed analysis is what is available asap to the plants, but this does make me wonder. Please, if anyone knows, chime in before I lose some of the most legendary strains in existence.

DankTankerous · Jan 4, 2021

LegendaryG said:
I'm no expert when it comes to the NPK analysis on a specialty bag of soil, but 10 years ago when Vermifire came out, their N level was a solid 2 printed on the front of their bags. Now I see photos of their bags of soil on their website with the NPK number being 1.6-1-.6.

I have been using this soil since they came out always cutting it so it isn't so "hot" and have always had great mostly bug free results for getting plants going.

If you look at their website their bags clearly have printed
1.6-1-.6 for NPK printed directly under the name Vermifire.

The bags I just received don't have any numbers printed on the front anymore, but on the back it says guaranteed analysis 0.17%-0.11%-0.14%.

Am I missing something here or is Vermifire lacking the "fire" it used to have? Am I supposed to believe they have "watered down" the recipe with coco and perlite or am I missing something about the mysteriously disappearing numbers from the front of the bag and leaving only the analysis on the back.

This is an extremely important topic for me because I have no way of getting good bag soil where I live for indoor growing. Shipping is so high that the only soil that makes sense to pay $50 a bag including shipping is and always has been the "hot" Vermifire. That way I can go to the local feed store and "cool" the soil down with pro-mix and turn 1 bag of soil into 3. What am I missing here? Do the numbers they print on the front not have to correlate with the guaranteed analysis?

I asked Hawthorne(the producers of Vermicrop products) and they told me that eventually the NPK numbers are going to be removed from ALL bagged potting soils because there is no way to keep it the same batch to batch. I asked if the bags of soil I just received that have a guaranteed N analysis of 0.17% will be as hot as the bags of soil I used 10 years ago that had an N level of 2 and he said yes. Is it possible they are just switching up compost for more slow release chemical fertilizers? I understand that guaranteed analysis is what is available asap to the plants, but this does make me wonder. Please, if anyone knows, chime in before I lose some of the most legendary strains in existence.View attachment 4786536 View attachment 4786537

I used a bag of theirs 4 years ago and it was “fire”. If it’s all you got you might as well. Have you looked at build a soil, they sell pre-amended bags of LOS

GrassBurner · Jan 4, 2021

I had great results with Miracle Gro Performance Organics potting mix when I was in between soils. Might be an option for you, available at most box stores.

LegendaryG · Jan 4, 2021

Doesn't 0.17-0.11-0.14 seem extremely low to be a "hot" soil to anyone here? Ocean forest I believe is 0.3 for N and I would go back to it if it wasn't for the thrips that started coming with the purchase.

GrassBurner · Jan 4, 2021

I got a couple bags of FFOF around May, and they were super hot. I tested the soil in the pots after 4-6 weeks of veg, and the nitrogen was still off the charts.

youraveragehorticulturist · Jan 4, 2021

In my opinion, the original 2 value on the bag for nitrogen was probably B.S. and the actual N value has been around .17% the entire time.

I don't believe you could grow a plant in a 2% nitrogen medium. Straight Alfalfa Meal that people use as fertilizer is 2.5 N. Can anybody grow in straight alfalfa meal?

The original 2 was probably marketing hype that the company is walking back now that consumers are more savy and way more prone to complain a lot. I'm confident the soil is just as good as it always was.

Northwood · Jan 4, 2021

LegendaryG said:
Doesn't 0.17-0.11-0.14 seem extremely low to be a "hot" soil to anyone here? Ocean forest I believe is 0.3 for N and I would go back to it if it wasn't for the thrips that started coming with the purchase.

It depends what they're measuring. Maybe they're specifying the potentially mineralizable NPK in a more realistic way. Obviously they aren't measuring actual available nitrates and stuff, or that soil would be more than hot. It would be like battery acid. lol

LegendaryG · Jan 4, 2021

Thanks guys, I figured that is was probably earlier marketing hype based on other soils NPK's. I remember when they first came out they wanted $28 a bag for the stuff. Now you can pick it up at a local store if you're lucky enough for around $15. Someone must have caught onto their hype.

The guy did seem honest though. We joked about how some store owners kept having returned soil bags because it had all this white stuff growing on it and customers were afraid it was mold or something. That stuff is pure myco gold. I can say one thing that indoor potting soil benefits highly from having some sunshine #4 and a soil with a ton of mycos. Vermifire, when sitting around at the correct moisture level long enough, almost gets shrooms growing out of the bag. I love the smell of a freshly opened bag of sunshine #4 though. You can see the strands of mycelia thick growing through the whole bag.
I use the super soil recipe using SS#4 as a base for flowering, but I don't have a good veg(low to medium nute level) recipe yet. Anyone here have a good veg mixture recipe? I like starting with 30 lbs of SS#4 and 5 lbs of worm castings. What amount of guano, bone meal, blood meal amount would be good as to make a good first transplant soil? 4 oz each? I also add extra coco and perlite, about 1:1 to the whole mix so it weighs about 60 lbs somewhat moist when done. I mix by hand so it's hard to mix more than 100 lbs at once.

ilovereggae · Jan 4, 2021

the difference in price probably coincides w them being bought out by Sunlight / Hawthorne.

its honestly a little scary to me. from what I understand Hawthorne is now owned by monsanto/bayer. when they got that new capital @ 2017/18 they went on a spending spree and pretty much bought up or locked down exclusive distro for almost every popular organic brand. Dont hold me to this list but im pretty sure Dr Earth, Vermicrop, Earth Juice, Fox Farm are all owned or controlled by them. And I haven't seen it officially but a friend in the industry told me he thinks Roots Organics does all their distro thru them now too. take it for what it is, im sure they are just trying to tap into the growing organic food + getting ramped up for growth in the legal cannabis market. but it's also a little troubling having one entity control all the inputs for most organic gardners and even small farms.

fwiw I never got thrips but started getting fungus gnats in the last bags of FFOF I bought this time last year. I wouldnt be suprised if all of these issues are related to them trying to scale up the operations and having quality control issues in the process.

last but not least, you need a worm bin so u can be self sufficient. and dont bother telling me u don't have space, ive got one in my living room im looking at right now

LegendaryG · Jan 5, 2021

A worm bin? Isn't that just for N? What about P and K? Yeah, I believe white fire ash is a source for K, not sure, but Guano is not a good thing to have to buy for P. Bats are being raided and destroyed. Seabird guano sucks IMO. Yes, self-sufficiency is my goal so any tidbit of info is greatly appreciated!

I really do like growing with organics despite the lower yield than hydro, but how does one become completely self-sufficient when they basically live in the Arctic?
Last grow:
Oregon Huckleberry x Gobstopper

Grape Stomper BX3

Alien Nightmare F1

NewGrower2011 · Jan 5, 2021

The interesting thing I noticed on that bag was the big bold disclaimer saying "Not for use in organic crop and organic food preparation".

WTF? Maybe they're saying it would disqualify the grow as being a 'certified organic' or something. They even show tomatoes on the bag...

ilovereggae · Jan 5, 2021

LegendaryG said:
A worm bin? Isn't that just for N? What about P and K? Yeah, I believe white fire ash is a source for K, not sure, but Guano is not a good thing to have to buy for P. Bats are being raided and destroyed. Seabird guano sucks IMO. Yes, self-sufficiency is my goal so any tidbit of info is greatly appreciated!

I really do like growing with organics despite the lower yield than hydro, but how does one become completely self-sufficient when they basically live in the Arctic?
Last grow:
Oregon Huckleberry x Gobstopper
View attachment 4787064
Grape Stomper BX3
View attachment 4787065
Alien Nightmare F1
View attachment 4787066

I always thought the Vermicrop products were all basically promix w premixed myco lots of ewc added?

Having your own source of fresh ewc will go a long way towards self sufficiency. You might be able to get away w just ammending your current bags of soil. or you could use it in a fresh soil mix. if you can get peat and coco up there you can get the rest of the inputs and just make your own.

The next thing you could do is start a bokashi bucket(s) to pre ferment your scraps before you give it to the worms. this will help them break it down faster and also boost microbial life.

Then if you really want to get deep, look into KNF methods. The whole system is designed to use various things from your local habitat as your inputs (which go thru a fermentation process), as well as natural pesticides. I havent gone this far yet, but its on my 2021 agenda. I am sure your environment poses its own challenges but there's a ton of super smart ppl on here that can help. Good luck!

ilovereggae · Jan 5, 2021

NewGrower2011 said:
The interesting thing I noticed on that bag was the big bold disclaimer saying "Not for use in organic crop and organic food preparation".

WTF? Maybe they're saying it would disqualify the grow as being a 'certified organic' or something. They even show tomatoes on the bag...

wait whutttt? lol... the name of the company is Vermicrop Organics. but its not safe for organic food production? only thing i can think of is maybe it doesn't pass heavy metals tests so they only can advise it to be used for ornamental plants. there is a disclaimer about heavy metal levels just under that warning about not for use on food crops.

LegendaryG · Jan 5, 2021

ilovereggae said:
wait whutttt? lol... the name of the company is Vermicrop Organics. but its not safe for organic food production? only thing i can think of is maybe it doesn't pass heavy metals tests so they only can advise it to be used for ornamental plants. there is a disclaimer about heavy metal levels just under that warning about not for use on food crops.

Most people have known that the soil isn't fully organic because of one of their amendment sources. Not sure if it's potash mining or what, but legally they have to say NOT ORGANIC because it doesn't fully comply. It is safe to use. Having a label containing the words "organic" is definitely misleading though. Are they trying to get someone shut down because they thought they were growing 100% organic. Anyways, yes it's odd, but whatever the product that isn't fully organic is still a plant nutrient. Hydroponics isn't organic and makes some amazing fruits. I'm sure it's legal crap they have to list especially since they're in CA. It does make me want to start looking for other options though. I have 6 bags of OF Strawberry Fields(what a name lol), and the numbers on it look pretty good, but it's a highly acidic soil. Around 5.8-6.2. It's meant for fruiting. There's gotta be an easy method to get a good organic starter and intermediate veg mix going without using nutes.

ilovereggae · Jan 5, 2021

LegendaryG said:
Most people have known that the soil isn't fully organic because of one of their amendment sources. Not sure if it's potash mining or what, but legally they have to say NOT ORGANIC because it doesn't fully comply. It is safe to use. Having a label containing the words "organic" is definitely misleading though. Are they trying to get someone shut down because they thought they were growing 100% organic. Anyways, yes it's odd, but whatever the product that isn't fully organic is still a plant nutrient. Hydroponics isn't organic and makes some amazing fruits. I'm sure it's legal crap they have to list especially since they're in CA. It does make me want to start looking for other options though. I have 6 bags of OF Strawberry Fields(what a name lol), and the numbers on it look pretty good, but it's a highly acidic soil. Around 5.8-6.2. It's meant for fruiting. There's gotta be an easy method to get a good organic starter and intermediate veg mix going without using nutes.

you are probably correct. I think a lot of those brands used to be certified organic and then once the label stopped meaning anything anyway, they stopped paying for their annual certifications. in this case since the brand name says organics in it, they have to add the disclaimer since its not actually OMRI.

I've been really happy with BuildASoil you should check them out they are pretty much "open source" and have both premixed options, as well as the raw inputs and recipes for making your own. I started off making a batch of my own supersoil which was nice but then wound up just buying a bunch of their LOS. never been happier.

CapCityBen · Apr 1, 2021

ilovereggae said:
the difference in price probably coincides w them being bought out by Sunlight / Hawthorne.

its honestly a little scary to me. from what I understand Hawthorne is now owned by monsanto/bayer. when they got that new capital @ 2017/18 they went on a spending spree and pretty much bought up or locked down exclusive distro for almost every popular organic brand. Dont hold me to this list but im pretty sure Dr Earth, Vermicrop, Earth Juice, Fox Farm are all owned or controlled by them. And I haven't seen it officially but a friend in the industry told me he thinks Roots Organics does all their distro thru them now too. take it for what it is, im sure they are just trying to tap into the growing organic food + getting ramped up for growth in the legal cannabis market. but it's also a little troubling having one entity control all the inputs for most organic gardners and even small farms.

fwiw I never got thrips but started getting fungus gnats in the last bags of FFOF I bought this time last year. I wouldnt be suprised if all of these issues are related to them trying to scale up the operations and having quality control issues in the process.

last but not least, you need a worm bin so u can be self sufficient. and dont bother telling me u don't have space, ive got one in my living room im looking at right now

Hawthorne is owned by Scotts MiracleGro. They now own General Hydroponics, Botanicare, Vermicrop, Mother Earth, and some brands of equipment like Gavita and Sun Systems. Hawthorne/Scotts MiracleGro are not owned by Monsanto or Bayer. Scotts MiracleGro has the exclusive distribution deal with Monsanto for retail packaged Round Up.

Hawthorne's main competition in cannabis cultivation supply is Hydrofarm. Some things are distributed by both. Some are only sold by one or the other. Some are sold by both as well as elsewhere and directly.

Fox Farm is an independent company. They severed their ties with Hawthorne so they aren't even distributed by them any more.

Dr. Earth is also an independent company. They are not distributed by Hawthorne nor Hydrofarm. Earth Juice is also independent (though the company itself is called Hydro-Organics Wholesale Inc) and also not sold by either major distributor.

Roots Organics (parent company Auroroa Innovations), like Fox Farm, severed ties with Hawthorne.

ilovereggae · Apr 1, 2021

CapCityBen said:
Hawthorne is owned by Scotts MiracleGro. They now own General Hydroponics, Botanicare, Vermicrop, Mother Earth, and some brands of equipment like Gavita and Sun Systems. Hawthorne/Scotts MiracleGro are not owned by Monsanto or Bayer. Scotts MiracleGro has the exclusive distribution deal with Monsanto for retail packaged Round Up.

Hawthorne's main competition in cannabis cultivation supply is Hydrofarm. Some things are distributed by both. Some are only sold by one or the other. Some are sold by both as well as elsewhere and directly.

Fox Farm is an independent company. They severed their ties with Hawthorne so they aren't even distributed by them any more.

Dr. Earth is also an independent company. They are not distributed by Hawthorne nor Hydrofarm. Earth Juice is also independent (though the company itself is called Hydro-Organics Wholesale Inc) and also not sold by either major distributor.

Roots Organics (parent company Auroroa Innovations), like Fox Farm, severed ties with Hawthorne.

thank you for clarification and updated info!

Soil NPK, what are we really getting for our money?

LegendaryG

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DankTankerous

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GrassBurner

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LegendaryG

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youraveragehorticulturist

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Northwood

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LegendaryG

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