Soil seed starting problems

bicit · Apr 28, 2015

Alright so I've got a question for some experienced folk.

Normally with dwc I start seeds in a rapid rooter, put it in a 2" net cup, and all is well with the world. However I've been moving to soil and passive hydro. I also ran out of rapid rooters and don't really want to buy more.

I tried germinating 12 seeds in a petri dish with a few ml of water and fulvic acid. That part went fantastic, had roots in 2 days.

After I had a root showing I transfered the seed into a 2oz plastic cup filled with the soil mix I intend to use(1/3 compost, peat, perlite) and moistened the soil till I had a bit of run-off. Fast forward a week later, and all but 4 are dead. Five of them didn't make it above ground. Three made it out but died shortly after shedding their helmet. 3/4 living are doing great, but one seems to be stuck in the shell.

Eh what did I do wrong? Did I transfer too early? Should I skip the compost and perlite and start in straight peat? Over watered?

I'd like to start in straight EWC however I don't have any available yet.

Thanks for the help.

greasemonkeymann · Apr 28, 2015

bicit said:
Alright so I've got a question for some experienced folk.

Normally with dwc I start seeds in a rapid rooter, put it in a 2" net cup, and all is well with the world. However I've been moving to soil and passive hydro. I also ran out of rapid rooters and don't really want to buy more.

I tried germinating 12 seeds in a petri dish with a few ml of water and fulvic acid. That part went fantastic, had roots in 2 days.

After I had a root showing I transfered the seed into a 2oz plastic cup filled with the soil mix I intend to use(1/3 compost, peat, perlite) and moistened the soil till I had a bit of run-off. Fast forward a week later, and all but 4 are dead. Five of them didn't make it above ground. Three made it out but died shortly after shedding their helmet. 3/4 living are doing great, but one seems to be stuck in the shell.

Eh what did I do wrong? Did I transfer too early? Should I skip the compost and perlite and start in straight peat? Over watered?

I'd like to start in straight EWC however I don't have any available yet.

Thanks for the help.

whats in your compost?
personally I start my seeds in half compost half cut up shredded coco hair, also I don't like to wait until the roots come out, I plant them when they "oyster" meaning as soon as the seed cracks a smile.
2oz is sorta a tiny area though, I germinate mine in toilet paper rolls. after the roots fill the bottom (about two weeks) I trans into party cups, and from there to my final smartpots.
I'd guess it was too strong of a compost, or you damaged the taproot, the seedlings are SUPER delicate and sensitive...
I also don't recommend plating in straight EWC, way too thick, and it doesn't breathe enough, also it's relatively rich for seedlings, seedlings don't require hardly any food for the first two weeks

st0wandgrow · Apr 28, 2015

bicit said:
Alright so I've got a question for some experienced folk.

Normally with dwc I start seeds in a rapid rooter, put it in a 2" net cup, and all is well with the world. However I've been moving to soil and passive hydro. I also ran out of rapid rooters and don't really want to buy more.

I tried germinating 12 seeds in a petri dish with a few ml of water and fulvic acid. That part went fantastic, had roots in 2 days.

After I had a root showing I transfered the seed into a 2oz plastic cup filled with the soil mix I intend to use(1/3 compost, peat, perlite) and moistened the soil till I had a bit of run-off. Fast forward a week later, and all but 4 are dead. Five of them didn't make it above ground. Three made it out but died shortly after shedding their helmet. 3/4 living are doing great, but one seems to be stuck in the shell.

Eh what did I do wrong? Did I transfer too early? Should I skip the compost and perlite and start in straight peat? Over watered?

I'd like to start in straight EWC however I don't have any available yet.

Thanks for the help.

I'd say you over watered. I moisten the soil, but doing so until you have runoff is too much IMO

bicit · Apr 28, 2015

greasemonkeymann said:
whats in your compost?
personally I start my seeds in half compost half cut up shredded coco hair, also I don't like to wait until the roots come out, I plant them when they "oyster" meaning as soon as the seed cracks a smile.
2oz is sorta a tiny area though, I germinate mine in toilet paper rolls. after the roots fill the bottom (about two weeks) I trans into party cups, and from there to my final smartpots.
I'd guess it was too strong of a compost, or you damaged the taproot, the seedlings are SUPER delicate and sensitive...
I also don't recommend plating in straight EWC, way too thick, and it doesn't breathe enough, also it's relatively rich for seedlings, seedlings don't require hardly any food for the first two weeks

It's ecoscraps compost. Waste food and garden trimmings. Has worked well for my vegetable gardens gardens.

I figured 2oz would be enough till they could be transplanted to a smartpot. The idea was pretty much a direct replacement for rapid rooters.

I'll try transplanting them a bit earlier, and not moisten the soil as much next time. I used tweasers to transfer and I was sure I only touched the seed, transplanting them when they 'oyster' would alleviate that problem I suppose.

Alienwidow · Apr 28, 2015

Your probably right, maybe on both theories. I water seeds with a 60 ml syringe after they sprout. Theyre so small they dont need lots of water. If you over watered then they died from damping off. If you saw the base of the sprouts stalk get really skinny and dark, and then they just fell over, then it was damping off. If they were over fertlized from a hot soil mix theyd look fried.
pics would help but i think you already have it figured out.

greasemonkeymann · Apr 28, 2015

bicit said:
It's ecoscraps compost. Waste food and garden trimmings. Has worked well for my vegetable gardens gardens.

I figured 2oz would be enough till they could be transplanted to a smartpot. The idea was pretty much a direct replacement for rapid rooters.

I'll try transplanting them a bit earlier, and not moisten the soil as much next time. I used tweasers to transfer and I was sure I only touched the seed, transplanting them when they 'oyster' would alleviate that problem I suppose.

that compost may have fried them, not sure though without being there to check the variables.
I have found that seeds and seedling really really like a warmer soil, for some reason as a established plant it's not quite so important but when they are young they like a consistent warm soil, personally I don't like rapid rooters for seeds, for clones they work well but not seeds, with clones the roots extend more horizontally from the stem which suit the rapidrooter design, but as a seed I have noticed they like more depth than a clone does, that's why I have such good luck with toilet paper rolls, I know it seems stupid, but it works, and the roll breaks down a helluva lot faster than the rapid rooters do.... in fact.. anyone else notice that rapid rooters don't break down?
I have some in my compost over a yr old and they look the same as the new ones do....
I swear I wonder if they are made from rubber as opposed to peat...

Alienwidow · Apr 28, 2015

bicit said:
It's ecoscraps compost. Waste food and garden trimmings. Has worked well for my vegetable gardens gardens.

I figured 2oz would be enough till they could be transplanted to a smartpot. The idea was pretty much a direct replacement for rapid rooters.

I'll try transplanting them a bit earlier, and not moisten the soil as much next time. I used tweasers to transfer and I was sure I only touched the seed, transplanting them when they 'oyster' would alleviate that problem I suppose.

i plant seeds right in dirt. I soak the seed for 12 hrs then remove, 24 hrs waterlogs some seeds. I moisten the dirt, make holes, drop in seeds, cover. Then i place the seeded three inch pots in the dark where the temp is at 78-81 degrees. The temp is crucial...ish. Dont even look at it for 48 hours and when you come back theyll all be staring you in the face. 30 outta 31 last time. Right into ffof soil.

Alienwidow · Apr 28, 2015

greasemonkeymann said:
that compost may have fried them, not sure though without being there to check the variables.
I have found that seeds and seedling really really like a warmer soil, for some reason as a established plant it's not quite so important but when they are young they like a consistent warm soil, personally I don't like rapid rooters for seeds, for clones they work well but not seeds, with clones the roots extend more horizontally from the stem which suit the rapidrooter design, but as a seed I have noticed they like more depth than a clone does, that's why I have such good luck with toilet paper rolls, I know it seems stupid, but it works, and the roll breaks down a helluva lot faster than the rapid rooters do.... in fact.. anyone else notice that rapid rooters don't break down?
I have some in my compost over a yr old and they look the same as the new ones do....
I swear I wonder if they are made from rubber as opposed to peat...

ya, totally. I used them for years. I just switched to rockwool cubes and filled two full domes...no spots left. And had 100% success rate. 156/156. Amazing! Even that overflowing there were no cuts that didnt make it. Im hooked on rock wool now. And theyre cheaper.

bicit · Apr 28, 2015

Alienwidow said:
Your probably right, maybe on both theories. I water seeds with a 60 ml syringe after they sprout. Theyre so small they dont need lots of water. If you over watered then they died from damping off. If you saw the base of the sprouts stalk get really skinny and dark, and then they just fell over, then it was damping off. If they were over fertlized from a hot soil mix theyd look fried.
pics would help but i think you already have it figured out.

Seems like I had a mix of both problems then. I'll go a bit easier on the compost then. A few of them looked like they had nute burn, fried leaves turning in on itself. A few turned brown at the base like you said. Strange mix of reactions with the same genetics.

I'm most experienced with DWC, I always turned the rapid rooter upside down and planted the seed in the 'bottom'. Put it in a dome and keep warm. I've had great success with that method. Good to know about the rapid rooters not breaking down. Maybe I'll just use straight peat with a bit of perlite for drainage.

Alienwidow · Apr 28, 2015

bicit said:
Seems like I had a mix of both problems then. I'll go a bit easier on the compost then. A few of them looked like they had nute burn, fried leaves turning in on itself. A few turned brown at the base like you said. Strange mix of reactions with the same genetics.

I'm most experienced with DWC, I always turned the rapid rooter upside down and planted the seed in the 'bottom'. Put it in a dome and keep warm. I've had great success with that method. Good to know about the rapid rooters not breaking down. Maybe I'll just use straight peat with a bit of perlite for drainage.

Lol, ya, sprouting seeds is tough to get the hang of but once you got it its almost better than cloning. Mostly peat and pearlite wouldnt hurt, seeds dont need food right off the bat which is why they sell seed starter mix which has almost no food in it. Personally id mix a little of the compost in but not a lot, just cause they will still sprout and then theyll have a little food to get by on until they are ready for a transplant. Good luck man.

greasemonkeymann · Apr 28, 2015

bicit said:
Seems like I had a mix of both problems then. I'll go a bit easier on the compost then. A few of them looked like they had nute burn, fried leaves turning in on itself. A few turned brown at the base like you said. Strange mix of reactions with the same genetics.

I'm most experienced with DWC, I always turned the rapid rooter upside down and planted the seed in the 'bottom'. Put it in a dome and keep warm. I've had great success with that method. Good to know about the rapid rooters not breaking down. Maybe I'll just use straight peat with a bit of perlite for drainage.

they may break down, just not in my compost pile, but conversely everything organic in my compost is melting just fine, soooo.... jus sayin a pure peat product probably wouldn't last so damn long...

bicit · Apr 28, 2015

Well they do use some sort of glue to hold it together. I imagine thats yhe reason they don't break down readily. Maybe worms will eat them.

moonstar45 · Apr 29, 2015

i water before and not after i plant the seeds! why don't you start them in tiny pots in seed starter soil without any compost

bicit · Apr 29, 2015

moonstar45 said:
i water before and not after i plant the seeds! why don't you start them in tiny pots in seed starter soil without any compost

Sorry, that was a grammar mistake on my part. I did water before I planted, not after.

I do plan on it actually. I'm actually going to run an experiment with straight peat vs peat inocculated with some mycogrow soluble from fungi perfecti vs peat soaked with aquarium water. Just need to find some cheap seeds, bagseeds are non-exsistent around here.

I'm also going to experiment using 2 inch net cups, instead of bathroom cups. Sorta simulating a small scale fabric pot or air pot.

Soil seed starting problems

bicit

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greasemonkeymann

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st0wandgrow

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bicit

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Alienwidow

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greasemonkeymann

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Alienwidow

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Alienwidow

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bicit

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Alienwidow

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greasemonkeymann

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bicit

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moonstar45

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bicit

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