Taking the plunge: HP Aero Drain to Waste

GreenThumbSucker

Well-Known Member
I hear ya pet I to gave up on the fuzzy root theory long ago also. Hey green best advice is do not waste your time or money do dirt or dwc or ebb flo or stink bud-super stoner system use that 6800 to run a reverse osmosis.
Ive done all that. Did dirt for years. I'm doing DWC now. I've done ebb and flow and drip. I have experience with my co-op partner (in his setup) doing low pressure aero. Now I am doing this. I am going to keep it as simple as possible, but thanks for the warnings :)
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Well, I feel as though I was taken a bit out of context. If you're going to do HPA, do it right. Short of that then I really like my DIY 21st Century F & D, but DWC with tons of bubbles is good too.
 

GreenThumbSucker

Well-Known Member
Well, I feel as though I was taken a bit out of context. If you're going to do HPA, do it right. Short of that then I really like my DIY 21st Century F & D, bt DWC with tons of bubbles is good too.
After this crop I will decide where I am going to go with it. Right now I'm keeping it as simple as possible. My tubs were warm inside because I painted the tops black, so I put some silver insulation on the lids, cooled them way down. They must be in the low 70s now. Were at least 85 degrees in the root zone before that. I will try to leap each hurdle as I come to it. Just want to survive this one.

I still have two rooms that are running DWC. I use flat 10 inch disc airstones running at high pressure. Two per 27 gallon tub. Hyper aeration. Still lose a plant here and there to the rot.

Here are some pics from the Aero room. Running cool tubes. Tiny fragile HP aero roots.
IMG_2594.jpgIMG_2593.jpgIMG_2589.jpgIMG_2588.jpg
 

GreenThumbSucker

Well-Known Member
Well, I feel as though I was taken a bit out of context. If you're going to do HPA, do it right. Short of that then I really like my DIY 21st Century F & D, but DWC with tons of bubbles is good too.
What specific problems did you have that turned you off with High Pressure Aero? How important is it to run it 'flawlessly'? If I have a system that is pushing out the droplets the right size and the temps, ph, ppm and timing is right, do I really need perfection? I really want to keep this as simple as possible. If I can get it down to something that is relatively simple that works, I will be happy.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
The goal with HPA is to have root hairs which are the most efficient eaters. The problem is the roots must neither be too wet nor too dry- keep the roots hungry, but never starving.

High RH/temps inside the pod is a root hair killer. My grow room is not climate controlled and the room has open beam ceilings. This week temps will be 80+ all week. That's ok for ambient temps during veg, but it drives high humidity/heat inside the pod. Also the pod lid needs to be covered with reflective material or the heat from the grow lights will cause high heat/humidity inside the pod, again killing the root hairs.

Good to have leds with HPA in warmer climates. I use HOT5s, which don't throw a lot of downward temps, but the smaller the plant the closer to the lights and, well, 80*s inside the root pod and root hairs will die, or not develop.

Clearly, if you live in more moderate temps, the issues are minimized, but too cold is similarly bad for root hairs.

And so on with the potential obstacles

hth

Don't really want to get any more involved in this within my thread
 

hammer21

Well-Known Member
Green do not try and perfect Pom Pom roots the only way to get them is to starve the plant you will see very little growth. Bottom line if you want killer results spray the crap out of them with highly oxygenated spray at 65-68 degree. Do not do a drain to waste unless you plan on starving your plant. or do not care how much nutes you will be wasting. just change your reservoir weekly. And you will grow fast and monsters. I spray every 4 minutes for 15 seconds with fish bone roots and great results. Good luck
 

GreenThumbSucker

Well-Known Member
Green do not try and perfect Pom Pom roots the only way to get them is to starve the plant you will see very little growth. Bottom line if you want killer results spray the crap out of them with highly oxygenated spray at 65-68 degree. Do not do a drain to waste unless you plan on starving your plant. or do not care how much nutes you will be wasting. just change your reservoir weekly. And you will grow fast and monsters. I spray every 4 minutes for 15 seconds with fish bone roots and great results. Good luck
Yeah, I read that some people end up with dwarf plants. Im more interested in the high levels of oxygenation. I'm with you on drenching them.

I have all the chemicals needed to make my own fertilizer. Only costs about $5 per gallon to make. I'm going to mix up a batch of the Fatmans drain to waste aero formula and run that. Right now I'm running his DUI lucas formula, and it kicks ass, but for something like this I have to deliver exactly what they use and no more or less.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
DRENCHING is not the answer either. You wind up with roots that look like over cooked spaghetti. Having experienced all the problems first hand, I developed My DIY 21st Century 'Flood' & Drain. Link was going to wrong thread, asked Mods for help
 

GreenThumbSucker

Well-Known Member
The more I read and watch youtube videos, the more I am convinced that drenching is the way to go. Seems people have this thing about pushing their plants to near death in search of elusive root hair perfection. I don't need perfection, just a better way to oxygenate, which the mist accomplishes nicely. Too many horror stories from people seeking the perfect roots and having to toss out half their plants because they killed them.

K.I.S.S. is the route I am going to stick with.

One thing I have learned is that you need to drop roots BEFORE you put them in your aero system. Mine started dropping roots but they are too tiny, I need a good tap root so I slapped together a quick tote DWC with a little water heater and a few airstones. Once they drop some nice tap roots, I will move them back into the aeroponics system.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I read that one minute start-ups are hard on the pump. The 6800 pump is built to run constantly. I am not sure what the role of the accumulator is, except to maintain pressure somewhere, somehow. That is why I started this thread, to learn stuff like that.

I was thinking about running two solenoids. One default open and one default closed. I would put a T on the line coming out of the pump. One line on the T would run back to the reservoir. This line would be default open. The other line that goes to the sprayers would be default closed. That way the pump could run continually and the solution would just go back into the reservoir. When the timer came on, the line going to the reservoir would close, and the line going to the sprayers would open, thus diverting the solution to the sprayers. When the timer went off, the line going to the sprayers would close, and the line going to the reservoir would open. This would allow me to have the pump running continually.

What do you think of this idea? I think I read it on a fatman thread a while back.
These HP pumps are not made for continous duty and would burn out, not to mention the noise, electrical waste and heat they would make. You cannot run without an accumulator and get any better results than normal hydro, sorry...

Also, you will have pressure drops feeding more than a couple nozzles due to the low flow rate of the pump, giving you larger droplets- you need the accumulator!
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Green do not try and perfect Pom Pom roots the only way to get them is to starve the plant you will see very little growth. Bottom line if you want killer results spray the crap out of them with highly oxygenated spray at 65-68 degree. Do not do a drain to waste unless you plan on starving your plant. or do not care how much nutes you will be wasting. just change your reservoir weekly. And you will grow fast and monsters. I spray every 4 minutes for 15 seconds with fish bone roots and great results. Good luck
I love you Hammer, but I fully disagree. The plants do not starve, they flourish and become very efficient eaters. But you have to do it right in the first place, with an accumulator, and the correct mist nozzles...
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
I'm using the old 50 gallon reservoir from my Ebb and Gro. Because the solution does not recirculate, it stays nice and fresh. That is one of the good things about drain to waste, almost no chance at getting root rot. I am adding a little hydrogen peroxide every day. A Couple tablespoons. Just enough to keep it sterile.
That's a huge rez, my 8 site chamber only used 5-10 gallons per week.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
The more I read and watch youtube videos, the more I am convinced that drenching is the way to go. Seems people have this thing about pushing their plants to near death in search of elusive root hair perfection. I don't need perfection, just a better way to oxygenate, which the mist accomplishes nicely. Too many horror stories from people seeking the perfect roots and having to toss out half their plants because they killed them.

K.I.S.S. is the route I am going to stick with.

One thing I have learned is that you need to drop roots BEFORE you put them in your aero system. Mine started dropping roots but they are too tiny, I need a good tap root so I slapped together a quick tote DWC with a little water heater and a few airstones. Once they drop some nice tap roots, I will move them back into the aeroponics system.
When you drench, you are covering the roots in liquid, which somwhat starves them for oxygen and is about the same as hydroponics. HP aero is an all or nothing thing, and it seems you are not interested in doing it. The reason people have trouble is because they try to shortcut or simplify, so Then the aeroflo or stinkbud system is probably better for you... You really need to read and research before wasting money... HP aero done properly with an accumulator is foolproof in terms of reliability, even in a power outage the tank keeps the nutes spraying for possibly days without the need to recharge- you only need a 12v marine battery to keep the solenoid and timers going... There is a bit or work in building a system, but after that, it is very simple to run- almost fully automated other than reading your plants and adjusting the mist and ppm according to stages of growth and ambient conditions...
 

GreenThumbSucker

Well-Known Member
These HP pumps are not made for continous duty and would burn out, not to mention the noise, electrical waste and heat they would make. You cannot run without an accumulator and get any better results than normal hydro, sorry...

Also, you will have pressure drops feeding more than a couple nozzles due to the low flow rate of the pump, giving you larger droplets- you need the accumulator!
The aquatec 6800 is a continuous duty pump according to the manufacturer. It is also uses very little power. This pump is dead silent. All I can hear when it runs are the misters spraying.

It will last longer a lot longer if I use a couple solenoids and just run it continually and divert it back into the reservoir when the timer is in the off state. I will get a couple deep cell marine batteries. I can trickle charge from a solar panel, which would allow it to run for eternity with the power off, or trickle charge them from the house current with a boat charger. With at two deep cell batteries I would get at least three or four days off a single charge. The deep cell batteries in my sailboat last a week running a cooler, boat lights, VH radio and sound system.

The pump is running at just over 90 psi right now. I can adjust it if needed. With the nozzles I am using I can run 6 before any pressure drop. I will never need to run more than four pods at once in this room, 1 plant per pod.
 

GreenThumbSucker

Well-Known Member
When you drench, you are covering the roots in liquid, which somwhat starves them for oxygen and is about the same as hydroponics. HP aero is an all or nothing thing, and it seems you are not interested in doing it. The reason people have trouble is because they try to shortcut or simplify, so Then the aeroflo or stinkbud system is probably better for you... You really need to read and research before wasting money... HP aero done properly with an accumulator is foolproof in terms of reliability, even in a power outage the tank keeps the nutes spraying for possibly days without the need to recharge- you only need a 12v marine battery to keep the solenoid and timers going... There is a bit or work in building a system, but after that, it is very simple to run- almost fully automated other than reading your plants and adjusting the mist and ppm according to stages of growth and ambient conditions...
I don't think it has to be all or nothing. Especially when I am just beginning to get my feet wet. Perhaps in the future I will want to step it up a level, but for now I am going to keep it as safe and simple as possible and see what comes of it. Time will tell where I go with it. Simple is good for me at this time.

I have no interest in running a low pressure sprinkler system.
 

GreenThumbSucker

Well-Known Member
That's a huge rez, my 8 site chamber only used 5-10 gallons per week.
In my DWC tree system four plants drink 15-20 gallons a day in full bloom. That is the measure I go by. I also go on 2-3 day ski or sailing trips. I have someone babysit, but I like to be able to walk for a few days without them having to touch the system. I have had babysitters fuck my plants up in the past. Automation is a beautiful thing.

I am going to be doing drain to waste, I suspect I will use about 75-100 gallons a week with this system, if they drink what my DWC plants do. The beauty of drain to waste is the PPM or PH never move. Everytime the plants drink, it's fresh pristine solution. It's a beautiful thing.

Really what I need to work out are the PPMs. With my DWC setups, I run about 550 ppm for veg and 650 - 900 PPM for flowering - toward the higher end after the third week when they start using more magnesium. I have seen multiponics videos successfully run 1300 - 1500 PPM during flowering on a recirculating HP Aero system, which I would never consider. I have read of people flowering with 500 - 600 ppm with HP aero. I may stick to the middle of levels used in my DWC systems, right aroung 700 - 800 ppm. We shall see where it goes.

I appreciate the replies and advise, gives me a lot to think about.

GTS
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
In my DWC tree system four plants drink 15-20 gallons a day in full bloom. That is the measure I go by. I also go on 2-3 day ski or sailing trips. I have someone babysit, but I like to be able to walk for a few days without them having to touch the system. I have had babysitters fuck my plants up in the past. Automation is a beautiful thing.

I am going to be doing drain to waste, I suspect I will use about 75-100 gallons a week with this system, if they drink what my DWC plants do. The beauty of drain to waste is the PPM or PH never move. Everytime the plants drink, it's fresh pristine solution. It's a beautiful thing.

Really what I need to work out are the PPMs. With my DWC setups, I run about 550 ppm for veg and 650 - 900 PPM for flowering - toward the higher end after the third week when they start using more magnesium. I have seen multiponics videos successfully run 1300 - 1500 PPM during flowering on a recirculating HP Aero system, which I would never consider. I have read of people flowering with 500 - 600 ppm with HP aero. I may stick to the middle of levels used in my DWC systems, right aroung 700 - 800 ppm. We shall see where it goes.

I appreciate the replies and advise, gives me a lot to think about.

GTS
Feed the same as your DWC... You might not have aero roots and therefore won't need to change your regimen as it will be similar from the plant's perspective. You'll be tossing out alot of water and spending alot of extra time and trouble on a system that won't likely produce much better than your DWC- but perhaps you'll make it work, and if it doesn't make you happy you only have to add a little more to go all the way. You won't need a heater with the heat the pump likely creates running constantly. ;)

Give it a shot and we'll see how it works- and work on it if it needs any help :)
 

GreenThumbSucker

Well-Known Member
Feed the same as your DWC... You might not have aero roots and therefore won't need to change your regimen as it will be similar from the plant's perspective. You'll be tossing out alot of water and spending alot of extra time and trouble on a system that won't likely produce much better than your DWC- but perhaps you'll make it work, and if it doesn't make you happy you only have to add a little more to go all the way. You won't need a heater with the heat the pump likely creates running constantly. ;)

Give it a shot and we'll see how it works- and work on it if it needs any help :)
I will keep it updated as this crop progresses, thanks again and I will probably be asking more questions down the road.
 

hammer21

Well-Known Member
Here is some root shots 6"X6" square tubing using 0.28 stainless nozzles spraying for 15 seconds every 4 minutes. growing very good.roots 004.jpgroots 002.jpg
 
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