Budley Doright
Well-Known Member
Huh? How did I distort the numbers in the link.
Sorry forgot about “to what end”? To look less trolly ..... I said that
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Tesla New Model Unveil...
- Thread starter doublejj
- Start date
Sorry forgot about “to what end”? To look less trolly ..... I said that
.
CatHedral
Well-Known Member
You came in stating 0.19 kWh per mile. Inspecting your link, the best case was 0.25 kWh/mile with the others clustering around 0.30 kWh/mile. So right there you were not just picking cherries but making stuff up from whole cloth.
The first example in my link claimed 338 Wh/mile, coming out to slightly less than 3 miles per kWh.
It is useless to discuss with you when you bring in "because I said so" statistics.
Budley Doright
Well-Known Member
How many WH in one KWH? That may be where your confusion lies. And where did I “come in saying .19, maybe I was high lol, certainly not dishonest.......... you seem upset?
CatHedral
Well-Known Member
Um. Might be my turn to eat some crow.
I believe I conflated that .19 with someone else. Sorry about that. (I too have some good Cannabis)
For the record, one kWh is one thousand Wh is 3.6 megajoules.
My basic argument is that Teslas do a little bit less well in the real world than their biggest boosters say they do.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
You got those numbers from me. I'm not using statistics, simple arithmetic will do.
I don't have a dog in the fight regarding which EV is the best. And if you believe some number posted somewhere, I'd be interested in what that article or source said. Regarding the certainty of any mileage number, as they say, actual miles may vary depending on driver and driving conditions.
From an article that was probably dated, it stated that The Standard Range Model 3 comes with a 50 kWh battery and has a range of 263 miles.
Divide 50 kWH by 263 miles and you get 0.19 kWH/mile the inverse is 5.2 miles/kWH. But I'm not certain where I got the original numbers or what their source was, so let's see what Tesla said:
From Tesla's own web page for the current model 3 the range is 353 miles with the long range battery. Tesla states that long range battery can store 82 kWH.
Divide it out: 82 kWH/353 miles = 0.23 kWH/mile the inverse is 4.3 miles/kWH.
Other articles say that the Tesla isn't much better in terms of efficiency than other EV makes and models. They all beat internal combustion hollow when it comes to emissions and they are rated very highly for energy consumption, pick the units for comparison.
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CatHedral
Well-Known Member
Sorry about the mixup.
These are the numbers I do not believe. I am willing to accept 0.30 kWh per mile. Any less will require the electric equivalent of "hypermiling". With a
50 kWh pack, I figure a real-life range of 150 miles is more accurate.
Figures like these are what Im inclined to use. About 0.3x hWh/mile
Our 2019 Tesla Model 3 Was a Learning Experience
Over two years and 40,000 miles, our Tesla Model 3 highlighted the novelty and compromise of EVs.
Yeah, I do not trust Tesla ad copy.
I am uncertain about that last. The manufacture of that battery pack needs to be brought into the emissions or total environmental impact equation. There is where I am ignorant and cannot mount a numbers argument.
What drives me here is my disgust with Tesla's overbearing communication style, embracing data that are effectively lies. If Tesla were in the top 5 for reliability and service satisfaction, my sentiment would likely be milder.
Budley Doright
Well-Known Member
Pretty much the same with every auto manufacturer. You must loath Volkswagen and others for what they did then. And thanks for the somewhat of an apology for the “dishonest” remark......
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Is Tesla pumping up its numbers more than other EV manufacturers? Seems to me that they all put the very best numbers forward but they have to show how they got them and there are test standards that they have to meet. As that article you posted said, it's natural to see 20% swings simply due to changes in air temperature. To what end? We can split hairs on EV mileage specs all we want and still, bicycles are cleaner tech than EV's.Sorry about the mixup.
These are the numbers I do not believe. I am willing to accept 0.30 kWh per mile. Any less will require the electric equivalent of "hypermiling". With a
50 kWh pack, I figure a real-life range of 150 miles is more accurate.
Figures like these are what Im inclined to use. About 0.3x hWh/mile
Our 2019 Tesla Model 3 Was a Learning Experience
Over two years and 40,000 miles, our Tesla Model 3 highlighted the novelty and compromise of EVs.www.caranddriver.com
Yeah, I do not trust Tesla ad copy.
I am uncertain about that last. The manufacture of that battery pack needs to be brought into the emissions or total environmental impact equation. There is where I am ignorant and cannot mount a numbers argument.
What drives me here is my disgust with Tesla's overbearing communication style, embracing data that are effectively lies. If Tesla were in the top 5 for reliability and service satisfaction, my sentiment would likely be milder.
The thing is, I wasn't trying to sell Tesla based upon those numbers. I was responding to @mooray 's assertion that because Tesla at full throttle "used as much power in 30 miles as a household does in a single day" means it is dirty tech. His complaints could be applied to all EV and many aren't true. In that context, a more realistic 3.x miles per kWH still makes my point.
Regarding Tesla as a car company. I'm repelled by the hype and waiting for the next shoe to drop regarding that company. From what I can tell, i it can go either way, up or down. The hype and Musk's own weirdness are also driving a lot of irrational hate on the company. There is a lot of froth surrounding that company and I'm not buying into the hype one way or the other.
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doublejj
Well-Known Member
Tesla’s Model 3 Reaches #16 on the World’s Best-Selling Cars List
Originally posted on EVANNEX. by Charles Morris Tesla’s Model 3 is the best-selling EV of all time — it has now sold over 800,000 units, surpassing the Nissan LEAF, which passed the 500,000 milestone in 2020. That’s
cleantechnica.com
Volts times amps equals watts, a thousand watts is one kilowatt, and one kilowatt over an hour is one kilowatt hour(kWh). Tesla battery is 375 volts and to make the math easy we'll say that the car is using 2.66 amps at 5mph, which means the car is using 1000 watts and if driven that way for an hour, has used 1kWh. And just for some references, the average home uses 29kWh in one day, the average fridge uses 1-2kWh in one day, a 4-ton home A/C uses about 4kWh in one hour of running, aaaaand a desktop computer averaging 100 watts per hour uses about 2.4kWh in one day.lol this conversation makes me feel like Marty.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
tbh to me this is a lot like the covid thread. I always accidentally click in here because I am not paying attention.
I put my faith in the (actual) scientists that are doing all the work to figure out how to be better as a species. My money is on nuclear tech that the radioactive waste gets buried deep enough that it can't really impact us.
I more worry about the pollution we produce as a species and think a combo of nuke and not moving around (driving) as a species near as much is the best way.
I hear ya. I worry about the tech in a different way, in that, some new groundbreaking tech that lets us use all we want fuels a growth that leads us to the exact same place, except with a lot more people and a much bigger cliff when the new tech after that doesn't come. If limiting usage and growth isn't in the equation, it's doomed, imo.
Budley Doright
Well-Known Member
Since covid I get 2 weeks to the gallon
tbh to me this is a lot like the covid thread. I always accidentally click in here because I am not paying attention.
I put my faith in the (actual) scientists that are doing all the work to figure out how to be better as a species. My money is on nuclear tech that the radioactive waste gets buried deep enough that it can't really impact us.
I more worry about the pollution we produce as a species and think a combo of nuke and not moving around (driving) as a species near as much is the best way.
.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
How VW Is Turning Engine Factories Into EV Battery Plants | WSJ
Volkswagen is investing in electric vehicles more than other legacy car makers in the U.S. WSJ goes inside an engine factory that is being transformed into a battery plant as the German giant looks to change its image and become a rival to Tesla.
Volkswagen is investing in electric vehicles more than other legacy car makers in the U.S. WSJ goes inside an engine factory that is being transformed into a battery plant as the German giant looks to change its image and become a rival to Tesla.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
This is why VW is investing in batteries, they have a deal with Quantum scape for solid state batteries, no fire risk, fast charging, higher capacity, more cycles and less thermal issues, they operate in low temperatures too. If it works out, they should have a big advantage over other EV makers, the Japanese have a similar arrangement I believe.
QuantumScape And VW Are Selecting Where To Make Solid-State Cells (insideevs.com)
QuantumScape And VW Are Selecting Where To Make Solid-State Cells
After a Scorpion Capital report claimed QuantumScape was a “pump-and-dump SPAC scam,” the solid-state battery startup could not seem to care less. It released on May 14 that it is in the process of selecting where it will produce solid-state batteries with Volkswagen. Both companies currently have a preference for Salzgitter, a city that was mentioned more than one at Volkswagen Power Day.
Salzgitter will be where the German carmaker will have its first 40 GWh gigafactory in Europe. It already houses Volkswagen’s first recycling plant, which started to operate in January. Apparently, it will be the company’s manufacturing headquarters for batteries. The recycling plant could source raw materials to the solid-state cell plant in a much easier way.
The joint venture between QuantumScape and Volkswagen will be called QS-1. Initially, it will have a 1 GWh production capacity. However, the goal is to make it reach a 20 GWh production scale.
It is not clear if Volkwagen included that production capacity in Salzgitter’s total of 40 GWh or if it will be in addition to the 40 GWh capacity it will already have. Considering QS-1 will apparently be just in the same city but not the same plant, we’re more inclined to the second hypothesis.
The QS-1 will follow QS-0, which is an independent enterprise from QuantumScape. The solid-state battery startup expects to be able to produce 200,000 cells. Its goal is not to be a manufacturing marvel but rather to supply engineering cells for prototypes. QuantumScape hopes to provide cells for a few hundred test vehicles each year with it for all manufacturers interested in them.
As Jagdeep Singh told Sandy Munro, Volkswagen is pretty aware that the deal with QuantumScape is not exclusive. Being an investor in the startup, the German automaker will also benefit from any success it has with its competitors.
QuantumScape And VW Are Selecting Where To Make Solid-State Cells (insideevs.com)
QuantumScape And VW Are Selecting Where To Make Solid-State Cells
After a Scorpion Capital report claimed QuantumScape was a “pump-and-dump SPAC scam,” the solid-state battery startup could not seem to care less. It released on May 14 that it is in the process of selecting where it will produce solid-state batteries with Volkswagen. Both companies currently have a preference for Salzgitter, a city that was mentioned more than one at Volkswagen Power Day.
Salzgitter will be where the German carmaker will have its first 40 GWh gigafactory in Europe. It already houses Volkswagen’s first recycling plant, which started to operate in January. Apparently, it will be the company’s manufacturing headquarters for batteries. The recycling plant could source raw materials to the solid-state cell plant in a much easier way.
The joint venture between QuantumScape and Volkswagen will be called QS-1. Initially, it will have a 1 GWh production capacity. However, the goal is to make it reach a 20 GWh production scale.
It is not clear if Volkwagen included that production capacity in Salzgitter’s total of 40 GWh or if it will be in addition to the 40 GWh capacity it will already have. Considering QS-1 will apparently be just in the same city but not the same plant, we’re more inclined to the second hypothesis.
The QS-1 will follow QS-0, which is an independent enterprise from QuantumScape. The solid-state battery startup expects to be able to produce 200,000 cells. Its goal is not to be a manufacturing marvel but rather to supply engineering cells for prototypes. QuantumScape hopes to provide cells for a few hundred test vehicles each year with it for all manufacturers interested in them.
As Jagdeep Singh told Sandy Munro, Volkswagen is pretty aware that the deal with QuantumScape is not exclusive. Being an investor in the startup, the German automaker will also benefit from any success it has with its competitors.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
Sure, but when are they going to space?
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Here is one of the reasons for the sudden interest in EVs and batteries.
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VW-backed QuantumScape says its solid-state batteries will enable EVs to travel farther and charge faster - The Verge
VW-backed QuantumScape says its solid-state batteries will enable EVs to travel farther and charge faster
13
A potential game-changer for electric vehicles
After nearly a decade in operation, QuantumScape, a San Jose-based startup backed by Volkswagen and Bill Gates, is finally breaking its silence. In a virtual “battery day” event for investors, the recently public company announced that its “solid state” batteries for electric vehicles will charge faster, hold more power, and last longer than traditional EV batteries.
Solid-state batteries have eluded researchers for decades. Most EV companies use “wet” lithium-ion batteries, which use liquid electrolytes to move energy around. But these batteries can be slow to charge, can freeze up in subzero temperatures, and contain flammable material that can be hazardous in the event of a crash.
QuantumScape claims to have developed a production-ready solid-state battery with cells that are made of solid and “dry” conductive material. And while most startups pursuing solid-state batteries remain mired in the lab, QuantumScape says it will be ready to go into production in 2024.
“We don’t see anything on the horizon that’s going to be close to what we’re doing,” said Jagdeep Singh, founder and CEO of QuantumScape, in an interview with The Verge.
QuantumScape says its solid-state batteries will represent a significant improvement over conventional lithium-ion batteries, enabling electric vehicles that can travel 80 percent further than an electric vehicle with a traditional battery. There are other advantages too. They retain more than 80 percent of their capacity after 800 charging cycles. They’re noncombustible. And they’ll have volumetric energy density of more than 1,000 watt-hours per liter at the cell level, which is nearly double the density of top-rate commercial lithium-ion packs.
The key breakthrough is the use of a ceramic “separator” to replace the liquid electrolyte used in conventional battery cells to act as the medium through which positive and negative ions move around. It’s not like any ceramics that you may have at home, in so far as they are designed to be flexible, not rigid. Energy can continue to move throughout the cell in extremely cold temperatures of -30 degrees Celsius — a temperature that renders other solid-state designs inoperable or seriously degrades wet lithium-ion batteries.
The separator is around the size of a playing card and as thin as a human hair. “At the heart of it all is this new separator,” Singh said.
QuantumScape says its batteries last a real long time, perhaps “hundreds of thousands of miles of driving,” by eliminating the “side reaction” between the liquid electrolyte and the carbon in the anode of the conventional lithium-ion cells. And the batteries will charge at a much faster rate too, up to 80 percent capacity in just 15 minutes, an amount that typically takes 40 minutes or longer.
....
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VW-backed QuantumScape says its solid-state batteries will enable EVs to travel farther and charge faster - The Verge
VW-backed QuantumScape says its solid-state batteries will enable EVs to travel farther and charge faster
13
A potential game-changer for electric vehicles
After nearly a decade in operation, QuantumScape, a San Jose-based startup backed by Volkswagen and Bill Gates, is finally breaking its silence. In a virtual “battery day” event for investors, the recently public company announced that its “solid state” batteries for electric vehicles will charge faster, hold more power, and last longer than traditional EV batteries.
Solid-state batteries have eluded researchers for decades. Most EV companies use “wet” lithium-ion batteries, which use liquid electrolytes to move energy around. But these batteries can be slow to charge, can freeze up in subzero temperatures, and contain flammable material that can be hazardous in the event of a crash.
QuantumScape claims to have developed a production-ready solid-state battery with cells that are made of solid and “dry” conductive material. And while most startups pursuing solid-state batteries remain mired in the lab, QuantumScape says it will be ready to go into production in 2024.
“We don’t see anything on the horizon that’s going to be close to what we’re doing,” said Jagdeep Singh, founder and CEO of QuantumScape, in an interview with The Verge.
QuantumScape says its solid-state batteries will represent a significant improvement over conventional lithium-ion batteries, enabling electric vehicles that can travel 80 percent further than an electric vehicle with a traditional battery. There are other advantages too. They retain more than 80 percent of their capacity after 800 charging cycles. They’re noncombustible. And they’ll have volumetric energy density of more than 1,000 watt-hours per liter at the cell level, which is nearly double the density of top-rate commercial lithium-ion packs.
The key breakthrough is the use of a ceramic “separator” to replace the liquid electrolyte used in conventional battery cells to act as the medium through which positive and negative ions move around. It’s not like any ceramics that you may have at home, in so far as they are designed to be flexible, not rigid. Energy can continue to move throughout the cell in extremely cold temperatures of -30 degrees Celsius — a temperature that renders other solid-state designs inoperable or seriously degrades wet lithium-ion batteries.
The separator is around the size of a playing card and as thin as a human hair. “At the heart of it all is this new separator,” Singh said.
QuantumScape says its batteries last a real long time, perhaps “hundreds of thousands of miles of driving,” by eliminating the “side reaction” between the liquid electrolyte and the carbon in the anode of the conventional lithium-ion cells. And the batteries will charge at a much faster rate too, up to 80 percent capacity in just 15 minutes, an amount that typically takes 40 minutes or longer.
....
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Nope, but they've got this really nifty flexible ceramic separator for lithium batteries that make practical solid state batteries possible. If it pans out, Elon will be looking to cut a deal, if he hasn't bought in already, others are working on this technology too.
doublejj
Well-Known Member
Tesla Model 3 becomes most popular battery electric car on UK roads
www.theguardian.com
Tesla Model 3 becomes most popular battery electric car on UK roads
Surge in sales for US carmaker in first four months of 2021 pushes Nissan Leaf into second place
www.theguardian.com