The Congressional Progressive Caucus has a Plan too!

mame

Well-Known Member
This is laughable... Show me company where executive pay even reaches 1% of gross income. Most companies you are talking about are multi-nationals bringing down billions or hundreds of billions of dollars.

I have never EVER seen any proof that any one of these executives are being compensated more than a tiny fraction of the companies worth.
My example specifically referred to health insurance premiums.
investigators found the average for the top six insurance companies is closer to 82 cents on the dollar for medical care.(source)
What this means is that for every dollar payed for medical insurance, 18% of your money goes towards towards "generous CEO salaries and underwriters who decide when to drop patients who become too expensive". In other words, 18 cents on the dollar goes towards denying coverage and buying CEO johnny another car. A public option would force companies to find ways to cut from this 18 cents on the dollar - at least some is excess - at least a portion of it would come from CEO pay and the elimination of these teams of policy deniers. So, there is some evidence of what I was talking about. A public option can and will lower premiums, just as it has in other developed nations.
 

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
My example specifically referred to health insurance premiums.
What this means is that for every dollar payed for medical insurance, 18% of your money goes towards towards "generous CEO salaries and underwriters who decide when to drop patients who become too expensive". In other words, 18 cents on the dollar goes towards denying coverage and buying CEO johnny another car. A public option would force companies to find ways to cut from this 18 cents on the dollar - at least some is excess - at least a portion of it would come from CEO pay and the elimination of these teams of policy deniers. So, there is some evidence of what I was talking about. A public option can and will lower premiums, just as it has in other developed nations.
No moron, it does not mean that. It means that 18 cents on the dollar went to advertising, administrative costs, etc. A tiny sliver of those costs went to pay the CEO salary.

But hey, you keep going with what the media tells you.

Edit: The government openly admits that over 20 cents of every dollar in Medicare is lost due to waste and fraud. So, by all accounts, your government is much more inefficient than private providers at Healthcare. *shocker*
 

mame

Well-Known Member
No moron, it does not mean that. It means that 18 cents on the dollar went to advertising, administrative costs, etc. A tiny sliver of those costs went to pay the CEO salary.

But hey, you keep going with what the media tells you.

Edit: The government openly admits that over 20 cents of every dollar in Medicare is lost due to waste and fraud. So, by all accounts, your government is much more inefficient than private providers at Healthcare. *shocker*
hah! you acuse me of listening to a random media outlet and call me a moron but you are quoting Tom Coburn as "the government"? Cmon.. A breif perusal of my posting history would have yeilded the correct information - Medicare is actually estimated to lose 3-9% to fraud... not 20%. This happens to be in line with the private sector. Good job exposing more conservative talking points for what they are though... BULLSHIT.

BTW, I find it quite funny that today Paul Krugman wrote an opinion peice that literally mirrors my argument for taxing the rich.
 

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
hah! you acuse me of listening to a random media outlet and call me a moron but you are quoting Tom Coburn as "the government"? Cmon.. A breif perusal of my posting history would have yeilded the correct information - Medicare is actually estimated to lose 3-9% to fraud... not 20%. This happens to be in line with the private sector. Good job exposing more conservative talking points for what they are though... BULLSHIT.

BTW, I find it quite funny that today Paul Krugman wrote an opinion peice that literally mirrors my argument for taxing the rich.
I dont know who Tom Coburn is and congratulations for marching lockstep with paul krugman...

Edit: And the government admits it has no idea how much fraud is in medicare.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
I dont know who Tom Coburn is and congratulations for marching lockstep with paul krugman...

Edit: And the government admits it has no idea how much fraud is in medicare.
They do have an idea, they don't know for sure, but an investigation by politifact found 3% to be the likely number. They gave Coburn the benefit of the doubt (he is the one who said it was 20%+) and conceded it could be as high as 9%... But waste and fraud is still nowhere near the famed 20% number being tossed around by guys like Coburn. So that's where the 3-9% number comes from, government is not as wasteful as you think(again, this is sourced back in my original post on the subject.. via posting history in a different thread).
 

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
It doesnt matter, you dont get it, you wont get it and I need not waste time trying to continue to explain it to you.

You honestly believe that government is a benevolent benefactor that has all the answers to healthcare and everything else in the universe and all they need is just a little more money from those greedy rich people and corporations and utopia will be reached.

*golfclaps*

When the whole thing comes crashing down because politics has become more about raising campaign cash and paying back political favors than actually having any working knowledge about the economy or how business works, you and they will still blame the greedy rich.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Mr Krugman has spent his entire adult career in school, working for the central banks or working as a professor teaching. He has absolutely zero experience running any kind of business. His specialty is in INTERNATIONAL economics, not domestic. he is an admitted hard core liberal. Too polarizing to be any good.

At least he proscribes to the theory that it is governments fault for the income gap and ever widening disparity between income levels. His only redeeming feature IMO.
 

redivider

Well-Known Member
Mr Krugman has spent his entire adult career in school, working for the central banks or working as a professor teaching. He has absolutely zero experience running any kind of business. His specialty is in INTERNATIONAL economics, not domestic. he is an admitted hard core liberal. Too polarizing to be any good.

At least he proscribes to the theory that it is governments fault for the income gap and ever widening disparity between income levels. His only redeeming feature IMO.
he's just the head of the economics department at one of the best colleges in the world.

what would he know???
 

mame

Well-Known Member
It doesnt matter, you dont get it, you wont get it and I need not waste time trying to continue to explain it to you.

You honestly believe that government is a benevolent benefactor that has all the answers to healthcare and everything else in the universe and all they need is just a little more money from those greedy rich people and corporations and utopia will be reached.

*golfclaps*

When the whole thing comes crashing down because politics has become more about raising campaign cash and paying back political favors than actually having any working knowledge about the economy or how business works, you and they will still blame the greedy rich.
I've still seen no evidence from you to suggest that we shouldn't be raising revenue right now.
Mr Krugman has spent his entire adult career in school, working for the central banks or working as a professor teaching. He has absolutely zero experience running any kind of business. His specialty is in INTERNATIONAL economics, not domestic. he is an admitted hard core liberal. Too polarizing to be any good.

At least he proscribes to the theory that it is governments fault for the income gap and ever widening disparity between income levels. His only redeeming feature IMO.
You do realize a lot of the work he did on international trade theory studied the Japanese lost Decade(which effected most of Asia to a notable extent), Argentina, Mexico, Russia, Brazil... All of which were struggling to figure out what to do in the face of economic downturns, right? To say he has no idea what's going on in the U.S. economy because he studied international affairs is a idiotic statement... I mean cmon, if history and evidence is to be your guide in policymaking - you'd look at how other countries have responded to similar problems and how effective their responses were. You'd look at American history too, to discern what has worked for us in the past.

If basing your conclusions on evidence is partisan - than sign me up. If you're going to base your opinions on false equivelencies and "finding the center" than your niavette will only serve to cloud your judgement. Either somebody is right or they are wrong. There is no "oh well he has a point but the other guy does too and lets be fair" HORSE SHITTTTT... Lately, the Republicans have shown to be flat out wrong. Not idealogically different, but wrong. Paul Ryan's plan wouldn't even balance the budget, literally all of the savings go towards tax cuts and all the deficit reduction assumes that tax cuts "broaden the base" and increase revenue overall.. Recent history, as I've shown in this thread suggests that the link between profits and investment is not as strong as conservative economists' like John Taylor and Milton Freidman claim.

Let me remind you that Freidman's thesis on government spending multipliers - while useful to the discussion - proved misleading, as it was only true some of the time. His argument was that government spending can never produce a economic multiplier above 1(because you must first take from private investment to fund public investment), which has been proven false multiple times... his argument did however shed light on some spending that is deemed less efficient, the bush tax cuts for example, are only estimated to be worth 20something cents on the dollar. To be fair, Obama's stimulus bill was only worth ~75 cents on the dollar(I'd argue that was because half of it was tax cuts). Welfare programs like Medicaid and food stamps post multipliers over 1(I've used the Washington State WIC example in previous posts on these boards).

Krugman's work on the liquidity trap has stood the test of time so far, and is a big part of his rising name recognition.We happen to be experiencing a liquidity trap - in part because profits aren't being reinvested... This is because demand is low and companies have excess capacity. Because demand is low, and investment is low, unemployment is high. It's called a liquidity trap because it manifests into a worsening cycle - Austerity measures dont work in this case because they only worsen demand, labor costs aren't an issue low demand is. To use an analogy - fiscal stimulus gets the wheels rolling again. Once positive pressure is placed on the demand side, investment rises and then unemployment drops... After that market forces are able to take over. This is all based on concrete evidence and economic models that have, so far, all turned out to be true. So, Krugman is very relavent. That is why I cite him often. Would you rather me cite John Taylor even though many of his assertions have proven largely incorrect? That would be dumb, wouldn't it?

Here is a video shot prior to the recession. Notice how Paul Krugman is a pansy... but he is right, everything he said turned out to be true. Now, instead of attacking my sources why dont you instead focus on discrediting the evidence and assertions borne from the sources? In other words, prove him wrong. Have fun.

[video=youtube;MUOFTPbxuWA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUOFTPbxuWA[/video]
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
To say he has no idea what's going on in the U.S. economy because he studied international affairs is a idiotic statement...
Who said that? Strawman me you did.


Keynes' biggest fault was that he believed that government would actually act in the peoples best interest, he had forgotten all about liberty. Krugman has the exact same fault.

Edit: I watched the video, I think Krugman should Join the Marines and get through Boot Camp for what it would do for his confidence.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Keynes' biggest fault was that he believed that government would actually act in the peoples best interest, he had forgotten all about liberty. Krugman has the exact same fault.
This is true to an extent, but to be fair Krugman does believe in the free market, etc. There really isn't a "hard left" on the same level as there is a "hard right". Hell, Krugman was considered a moderate before the Bush administration. He had gone so far as to attack the early Clinton administration from the right. Krugman believes in Eisenhower-type Republicans, not Bush and not the Tea party that has gained 80 seats in the house. The left's polarization, in short, is in response to the rights shift to the far right. I feel the same way, when I first got into politics I was determined to come at it with a centrist attitude(I registered as an independent)... One example that comes to mind is the Delaware senate seat that Mike Castle could have won but he lost in the primary to O'Donnell. What a joke... that ruined it for me.
Edit: I watched the video, I think Krugman should Join the Marines and get through Boot Camp for what it would do for his confidence.
I couldn't agree more. Even though he was right he still didn't have the balls to actually say so lol. I would've stood up and told O'Reilly to shut the fuck up.
 

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
Another thing nobody takes into account in Kenyesian(sp) theory is that the premise is the government starts out without any debt and the spending is only temporary.

That is not the scenario here at all.

Obama has taken a tiny piece of economic theory and is attempting to apply it to the whole economy while not recognizing the scenario doesnt fit. He is doing that because like all presidents he wants to make a big change on America and you need lots of cash to do that.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
ROFLMAO!!! Ok, that made my day...
If you think about it, in America at least, it's true.

On the far right you've got hardcore free market fundamentalists. No minimum wage, no regulation, no government involvement in any market - including healthcare, etc. In a recession? Fuck it, the free market will fix it eventually. Inequality? Get a job you fucking loser. Dismantle the welfare state. This kind of idealogy is actually pretty common in the current U.S. political climate - the rest of the world thinks we're nuts.

Now on the left, the most "radical" ideas involve adding a public option. The public option would only compete against private insurance companies, there would be no mandate that anyone be forced to use the public option... this is about as free market as it gets while still getting almost all Americans insured... which btw isn't a very leftward idea compared to much of the world(most advanced countries have some form of universal healthcare). It's important to remember that many countries, like France, have a true "socialized insurance" program and Britain has a true "socialized medicine" program(in the UK hospitals are government owned and doctors are government employees). Obama's healthcare reform doesn't even have the public option, so you'll still be going through private companies that have to compete in the market... This is hardly "far left" or "socialized".

There are no communists in America and very few socialists. Progressives, the most leftward group in American politics believe very much in the free market, largely falling into the New Keynesian school of economic thought - not Marxism or whatever you think we believe. They have spent most of the last 60 years defending the New Deal policies (which btw most Americans love, these programs are pretty successful in terms of social impact after all - reducing poverty by ~28%). Most of what Progressives have done outside of protecting the New Deal revolves around the long awaited Healthcare reform bill.. It's taken Progressives several decades to get it through and really, once you look at it, it amounts to the most conservative universal healthcare reform in the world.

And before you call Obama a "socialist" maybe you should look at his record. Even before he was president he had taken many conservative positions and has constantly disappointed liberals with his belief that he can be "postpartisan" or act as "the center" - even though he knows just as much as anyone else who has been paying attention, that the right has moved so far right that the "center" he seeks is actually center right... He has done this especially since he's lost the house. Now you may say it's just political - and some of it is... But Obama ran as the middle and he has shown he intends to govern as the middle - that's really how he won the democratic nomination. Democratic voters chose the middle over Hillary - a progressive.

So yes, there really is no far left in America. Why dont you try checking out the other countries and compare?
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
. They have spent most of the last 60 years defending the New Deal policies (which btw most Americans love, these programs are pretty successful in terms of social impact after all - reducing poverty by ~28%).
That can't be factually true, the poverty data only goes back to 1959. Your speaking of Plotnick data which was using conditions of the latter half of the century and applying them to the first half. A very subjective way of doing it. Most historians would agrree that there was about a 30% poverty rate in the USA in the early 1900's and that the poverty rate in 1959 was about 23%. The rate fell the most after WW2, we became a huge employment powerhouse due to no one else having any manufacturing capacity, not because of New Deal social programs.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
That can't be factually true, the poverty data only goes back to 1959. Your speaking of Plotnick data which was using conditions of the latter half of the century and applying them to the first half. A very subjective way of doing it. Most historians would agrree that there was about a 30% poverty rate in the USA in the early 1900's and that the poverty rate in 1959 was about 23%. The rate fell the most after WW2, we became a huge employment powerhouse due to no one else having any manufacturing capacity, not because of New Deal social programs.
The 28% poverty number? It is absolutely true actually. I also have numbers for a couple of European countries and Canada. Here is another post with all of the numbers in it. If you reallly want me to source back past Paul Krugman, I can... But I'd rather not lol, these stats are responsible for like 2 -3 pages of bibliography... The relevant numbers are in paragraph 4:
For example, prior to the 08 global recession France's GDP per capita was only 74% of the U.S.. That sounds like a pretty compelling argument against the nanny state, right? Well, consider this. While France does have a lower GDP per capita, that's mostly because less of their population is in the workforce. The young (15-24) are only employed at a rate of ~25% while here in the U.S. 54% are employed; This largely reflects the fact that the French youth largely focuses on it's studies rather than having to drop out and work. 92% of french youth are in school and 45% of those aged 20-24 are in school compared with 85 and 35% in the U.S.. Only about 10% of French youth work and go to school at the same time, compared with 20% in the U.S.. The main working age group(between 25-54) participates in the workforce just as much as the U.S. at ~80%. The fact that the French often retire early is bad economically - due to the added taxpayer burden - and this is really the main cause of the lower overall GDP per capita.

Now, GDP per worker is 90% of the U.S. number. Well, again is this cause to move away from the nanny state? Not really, as most of the difference here is due to the fact that the French get more vacation time and work less hours weekly than we do. On average, they only work ~86% as many hours as Americans do yearly. International studies have shown that the French report more "life satisfaction" - which seems to argue that the French have sacrificed overall faster growth in GDP for slower gains and higher standard of living for the majority of citizens. The U.S. by contrast has seen most of it's economic growth go to the top 10%.

So in short, yes, the nanny state creates slower economic growth overall. But at what cost? A more equal society? Is that a cost? I'd argue it's a benefit. The problems the French are having is due to their mismanaging of it pension policies (retiring at 60, etc) than anything. To say that the nanny state failed, however, and to point to France as an example is misleading. The numbers suggest that all economic growth lost literally went to boosting quality of living across the board for the French. Inequality in the U.S. - specifically stagnant income gains among all outside the top 10% - has become an undeniable problem. Countries with higher tax rates dont have this problem nearly to the extent of the U.S. and they sacrifice little growth.

The U.S. nanny state reduces poverty by only 28%, compared with 54% in Canada, 61% in Britain, and 78% in Sweden. To match the level of effectiveness found in these countries we'd have to spend an addtional 2.5%(Canada), 4%(most of Europe), or as much as 9%(Sweden) more towards welfare programs. The facts are, these programs are very successful and, as the numbers point out, most of the French workforce is just as likely to work as the American workforce(although they get more vacation time and work less hours by comparison... Which allows for a higher quality of living overall despite a loss in net income). So, that kind of put a dent in the whole "the nanny state reduces the incentive to work!" argument.

These countries are able to do this because they bring in more revenue. We are in debt, so we couldn't immediately bolster the welfare state without going further in debt - but we can raise taxes and cut defense spending. The CPC's plan balances the budget by 2021 - 20 years faster than the Ryan plan and it doesn't cut the vital American programs of the New Deal - which avoids lowering the standard of living for the little guy. The U.S. takes in less revenue than most of the other developed nations and has seen no growth in wages for those outside the top 10% in several decades (wages are barely keeping pace with inflation since the 80's). Now, you give me some real evidence to suggest that we should not be raising taxes... Go ahead, I'm waiting. but I wont hold my breath.

(note: all of this information is sourced out of "The conscience of a Liberal", by Paul Krugman. Chapter 12, pages 252-256. All information found within is sourced from various organizations including but not limited to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, OECD and the Tax Policy Center... Fuck off I'm not listing the 3 pages of sources from the bibliography I'd be here all day lol)
The book was written in 2007 with the most recent data available so keep in mind all numbers are before the 08 recession.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
The 28% poverty number? It is absolutely true actually. I also have numbers for a couple of European countries and Canada. Here is another post with all of the numbers in it. If you reallly want me to source back past Paul Krugman, I can... But I'd rather not lol, these stats are responsible for like 2 -3 pages of bibliography... The relevant numbers are in paragraph 4:

The book was written in 2007 with the most recent data available so keep in mind all numbers are before the 08 recession.
Please tell me Mame, what was the exact percentage of people in poverty in the USA in 1933, 1859, 1948, 1957, 1901, 1897? You can't answer any of those questions, there is no data.

What actually caused the reduction in poverty was the fact that little johnny planted an apple tree, I can prove it, he planted it in 1942. Ever since then all these great things have happened since then, it MUST be because he planted that tree.

See your logic? Total reduction in poverty is actually only about 7% with provable statistics. Don't believe me? Look up Mollie Orshansky, prove it to yourself.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Please tell me Mame, what was the exact percentage of people in poverty in the USA in 1933, 1859, 1948, 1957, 1901, 1897? You can't answer any of those questions, there is no data.

What actually caused the reduction in poverty was the fact that little johnny planted an apple tree, I can prove it, he planted it in 1942. Ever since then all these great things have happened since then, it MUST be because he planted that tree.

See your logic? Total reduction in poverty is actually only about 7% with provable statistics. Don't believe me? Look up Mollie Orshansky, prove it to yourself.
Now I'm going to have to spend the time looking up the original source for those numbers i got and compare to yours. I wont be doing it tonight, I'll save it for when I 'm at work tomorrow. ;)
 

mame

Well-Known Member
Elizabeth Warren was on the Daily show today, she made a pretty compelling case for the Financial Protection bureau and really made a pretty good case overall for government regulation. Love that old lady haha

http://www.thedailyshow.com/
 
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