The far red thread

[maxlev]

Too difficult to get all 18 diodes to show up correctly from single camera angle, so showing half strip diode config (same config on both halves). Pic taken through led sunglass lense to dim exposure.

View attachment 4182835

yellowish are 3 red diodes, pink are 4 deep red diodes, circles show 2 far red diodes.

If you get this light, be very careful about putting ANY pressure on socket that connects to driver cord - extremely delicate!!!

If the socket craps out & a toothpick won`t fix it, there is a Molex Lite-Trap power input at other end.

Supplied power supply should be good for 33 watts at 1.4A.
Board can handle 2.1A = 50 watts so you do have a good excuse to spend more dosh, to crank it up.
My spare HLG 40H 24A should be good for 40 watts, adjustable from 1-1.67A

 

[Or_Gro]

All reds up and ready to grow some ginormous colas.

Far Red Bar: currently running for first 15 mins after lightsout



HLG QB-35 Emerson Boards: Four of them mounted in offset pairs on each Timber 48sams, will be running for full lightson once stretch is done.





Far red bar is also on (never will be on when other lights are on), but relative intensity perceived by human eyes is too low to see when other lights are on.

 

[Or_Gro]

Afterburners lit...

 

[maxlev]

Informative Far Red video
Really flash light meter (wickedly expensive)

 

[Or_Gro]

Informative Far Red video
Really flash light meter (wickedly expensive)

Nice meter, c-7000, 380-780nm, ppfd, spectrum, lotsa other stuff (i wouldn’t probably use), $2200

 

[KonopCh]

Anyone did side by side with FR "at the end of the day" vs. "when lights on + at the end of the day"? So EOD vs. "FR boost + EOD"?
@Randomblame discussed on the other subforum here that he runs second option. And he has 90CRI also, so with FR he has a lot of FR. Maybe some other member with 80 CRI and FR?

 

[Randomblame]

Yeah, I've used the far-red trigger all day long since the stretch is done(end of week 3)and this time with a 12,5/11,5h lighting regime from start to finish and it seems the fastest run with the current strains. It's day 51 and the Bubba'sGift is almost done and get's chopped this friday(54 days) and the SuperLemonHaze will need a few days more but not more than 60. And the summer was hot this year...
With the 13,5:10,5h daylength I've used last run with the same strains they needed 60 and 70 days.

The trigger runs for additional 5 minutes after lights off for EoD treatmjent and in the first three bloom weeks I've used the far-red tigger for 3+2 minutes before+after lights off to keep the plants short.
Mainlights are 3000°k, ⅔ CRI80 + ⅓ CRI90 and the far-red trigger -when run all day long- adds around 20μMol/s/m² of far-red. Probably the same amount of far-red like it would be with CRI90 only..
I can not say whether it is due to the additional 20μMol far-red or if it is only due to the 12,5:11,5h rhythm. I think both are equally responsible for the shortening.
I remember a few threads where they used the same 12,5: 11,5h rhythm with CRI90 only + EoD and they have reported similar foreshortening. I don't think I have much more far-red compared to them.
But what is best, the yield seems to be almost the same... at least it looks like. I'll let you know when it's done and dry.

 

[Or_Gro]

Anyone did side by side with FR "at the end of the day" vs. "when lights on + at the end of the day"? So EOD vs. "FR boost + EOD"?
@Randomblame discussed on the other subforum here that he runs second option. And he has 90CRI also, so with FR he has a lot of FR. Maybe some other member with 80 CRI and FR?

Been using far red initiator (15 mins after lights out) since flip, at 13.50on:10.5off, for 1st 2 wks. Was somewhat disappointed with speed of change, switched to 12:12, and saw almost immediate speed up (within days).

Turned on emerson bds at 3wks for full lightson, completely defoliated, and a week later refoliated and huge increase in pistl ball size.

Not a side-by-side for either treatment, but positive that both treatments add signif value, in early flowering at least, at 1000+ppfd, 1500+ppm co2, 81-83F, ~60-62.5% rh, super silver haze & nyc diesel (12 weekers).

Pics at https://www.rollitup.org/t/extreme-flowering-under-pair-of-timber-48sams.974039/page-7

 

[KonopCh]

@Randomblame 12.5h on or off? @GroErr swears by 12.5h off and also he reported the fastest finishing times.

 

[Or_Gro]

Fyi, https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/489030, provided to me by @SMT69.

Big flaw, not necessarily fatal, is they grew at 450 ppfd, ok for veg; but should be higher for flower, min 600 imo.

Probably should have done a range of flowering intensities, and 45 days is short for cannabinoid levels.

Still, progress!

 

[Randomblame]

Been using far red initiator (15 mins after lights out) since flip, at 13.50on:10.5off, for 1st 2 wks. Was somewhat disappointed with speed of change, switched to 12:12, and saw almost immediate speed up (within days).

Turned on emerson bds at 3wks for full lightson, completely defoliated, and a week later refoliated and huge increase in pistl ball size.

Not a side-by-side for either treatment, but positive that both treatments add signif value, in early flowering at least, at 1000+ppfd, 1500+ppm co2, 81-83F, ~60-62.5% rh, super silver haze & nyc diesel (12 weekers).

Pics at https://www.rollitup.org/t/extreme-flowering-under-pair-of-timber-48sams.974039/page-7

I would switch with 12/12h regime + EoD treatment for the first 1 or 2 weeks at least and then increase to 13,5/10,5h. Outing takes longer (almost the same like without far-red) if you start directly with 13,5 hours.

 

[Or_Gro]

I would switch with 12/12h regime + EoD treatment for the first 1 or 2 weeks at least and then increase to 13,5/10,5h. Outing takes longer (almost the same like without far-red) if you start directly with 13,5 hours.

Thanks man, i’ll try it next time.

 

[Randomblame]

Fyi, https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/489030

Big flaw, not necessarily fatal, is they grew at 450 ppfd, ok for veg; but should be higher for flower, min 600 imo.

Probably should have done a range of flowering intensities, and 45 days is short for cannabinoid levels.

Still, progress!

Nice find! And it shows that an improved spectrum with more blue and UV increase thc content dramatically. 9,5% with HPS vs 15,4% with the NS1 LED is a lot.

 

[Or_Gro]

Nice find! And it shows that an improved spectrum with more blue and UV increase thc content dramatically. 9,5% with HPS vs 15,4% with the NS1 LED is a lot.

Warrants further research, but good start.

I’m sure you checked citations for other new & useful research, i’m too busy at the moment with my “real” farm to dig into it.

 

[Randomblame]

@Randomblame 12.5h on or off? @GroErr swears by 12.5h off and also he reported the fastest finishing times.

No it's 12,5 on 11,5 off and I'm already impressed by the difference. With 11,5:12,5 it would be probably another 3-5 days faster.

 

[churchhaze]

Yeah, I've used the far-red trigger all day long since the stretch is done(end of week 3)and this time with a 12,5/11,5h lighting regime from start to finish and it seems the fastest run with the current strains. It's day 51 and the Bubba'sGift is almost done and get's chopped this friday(54 days) and the SuperLemonHaze will need a few days more but not more than 60. And the summer was hot this year...
With the 13,5:10,5h daylength I've used last run with the same strains they needed 60 and 70 days.

The trigger runs for additional 5 minutes after lights off for EoD treatmjent and in the first three bloom weeks I've used the far-red tigger for 3+2 minutes before+after lights off to keep the plants short.
Mainlights are 3000°k, ⅔ CRI80 + ⅓ CRI90 and the far-red trigger -when run all day long- adds around 20μMol/s/m² of far-red. Probably the same amount of far-red like it would be with CRI90 only..
I can not say whether it is due to the additional 20μMol far-red or if it is only due to the 12,5:11,5h rhythm. I think both are equally responsible for the shortening.
I remember a few threads where they used the same 12,5: 11,5h rhythm with CRI90 only + EoD and they have reported similar foreshortening. I don't think I have much more far-red compared to them.
But what is best, the yield seems to be almost the same... at least it looks like. I'll let you know when it's done and dry.

So just to confirm, after the stretch is finished, running far-red the whole day won't cause stretch, and will cause faster flowering? I've been thinking about trying this for a while. Any disadvantages you can see? Is it worth the extra power? I could easily change my timer to get another 10W or so of FR during lights on.

 

[Or_Gro]

So just to confirm, after the stretch is finished, running far-red the whole day won't cause stretch, and will cause faster flowering? I've been thinking about trying this for a while. Any disadvantages you can see? Is it worth the extra power? I could easily change my timer to get another 10W or so of FR during lights on.

I believe randomblame is in europe (nighttime there) so i’ll answer just so you don’t make a mistake.

Far red initiator is on only 15 min or so, partly/totally after primary lights go lightsoff. Its purpose, in this use, is to put plants in “sleep” mode, almost immediately. It normally takes plants a couple hours to go to “sleep”. If other lights are on while far red is on it can lead to increased stretch (see note below). When plants go to sleep immediately, it is believed that they only need minimum 10-10.5 hrs or less of primary lights lightsoff: so some people will do 13.5-14 hours primary lights lightson:10-10.5 hrs lightsoff, even going as far as less lightson hrs than lightsoff hrs. Randomblame was explaining this part.

Note: it has been found that far red in combination with red/deep red stimulates more efficient photosynthesis than normal par spectrum (emerson effect). With proper ratio of these other reds to far red, far red can be on for full time primary lights are lightson.

 

[Randomblame]

So just to confirm, after the stretch is finished, running far-red the whole day won't cause stretch, and will cause faster flowering? I've been thinking about trying this for a while. Any disadvantages you can see? Is it worth the extra power? I could easily change my timer to get another 10W or so of FR during lights on.

Hey buddy, good to see you more often again.
I've added the far-red during the day based on the paper below. A certain amount of far-red(up to 90μMol/s/m² were used in the paper) evens out the excitation states of PS-I and PS-II and makes PS more efficient. There seems to be an imbalance because most white and blurple LEDs lack in far-red. I've used the flower initiatior until the stretch was done and since then it runs all day + 5 minutes end of day treatment. Compared to the last run with 13,5/10,5h regime from BW3-9 and a 10th week 11/13h it seems ~10 days faster. But as mentioned above I've used a 12,5/11,5h regime this time so I can not say which one has more effect. There is also no deep-red diodes to date but a 3k mix of CRI80 and 90(⅔+⅓). Maybe I'll add some CRI97 COB's to get even more red/deep/far-red, I plan a few optimizations in the winter break. I'm so f.... addicted to the shit! New ideas pop up all the time ..

Btw,
no additional stretch ...

 

[Randomblame]

I believe randomblame is in europe (nighttime there) so i’ll answer just so you don’t make a mistake.

Far red initiator is on only 15 min or so, partly/totally after primary lights go lightsoff. Its purpose, in this use, is to put plants in “sleep” mode, almost immediately. It normally takes plants a couple hours to go to “sleep”. If other lights are on while far red is on it can lead to increased stretch (see note below). When plants go to sleep immediately, it is believed that they only need minimum 10-10.5 hrs or less of primary lights lightsoff: so some people will do 13.5-14 hours primary lights lightson:10-10.5 hrs lightsoff, even going as far as less lightson hrs than lightsoff hrs. Randomblame was explaining this part.

Note: it has been found that far red in combination with red/deep red stimulates more efficient photosynthesis than normal par spectrum (emerson effect). With proper ratio of these other reds to far red, far red can be on for full time primary lights are lightson.

I agree with most of it. But white light espechially CRI90 and up has plenty of red and deepred and even CRI80 seems to have enough of these wavelength. So I don't think one is forced to use deep AND far-red diodes to optimize PS.

I know rapidleds emerson booster but I don't like the additional LDDs. You still need a CV driver to run the LDDs and this costs at least 3% efficiency. 97%LDD x 91% HLG-driver = 88,3% efficient conversion and the smaller MWs are only 89% efficient so its even less when you use only one or two bars. A simple CC layout is much easier to realize, cheaper, easier dimmable, more efficient, ...
It would not hurt when one adds more deep red especially the new Osram Square deep-reds are hella efficient(up to 3,91 f.... μMol//J) but low driven CRI90+ COB's would do the same AND contain a certain amount of far-red already and it costs only half that much compared to secret diodes.

My old Cree COB builds had a lot of added deep-red(2 lights á 150w 3500°k/CRI80 + 20w Osram Oslon hyperred) and the results were no better than with my old Vero29gen5 fixture. Probably it would have been better if I had glued 6 far-reds to it. The added far-red this run seems to have more effect although It's only an eighth of energy.
The CRI80/90 mix + UVB works much better for me but probably due to a much better efficiency not so much because of the sepectrum. But the additional blue and UV works against the stretch and they seems earlier focused on flowering. The SuperLemonHaze stopped stretch end of week 3 almost together with the Bubba's Gift in the same tent and look almost like skunk strain with a little bit of haze! Ht difference is maybe 2-4".

But to be honest, I've made a lot of changes recently compared to last year and they've all done their part to the current results. To which percentage is really hard to say. It's still a learning curve to create an optimized spectrum but the CRI80/90 mix + UV + far-red works at least better than CRI80 white mix with deep red.

 

[Or_Gro]

I agree with most of it. But white light espechially CRI90 and up has plenty of red and deepred and even CRI80 seems to have enough of these wavelength. So I don't think one is forced to use deep AND far-red diodes to optimize PS.

I know rapidleds emerson booster but I don't like the additional LDDs. You still need a CV driver to run the LDDs and this costs at least 3% efficiency. 97%LDD x 91% HLG-driver = 88,3% efficient conversion and the smaller MWs are only 89% efficient so its even less when you use only one or two bars. A simple CC layout is much easier to realize, cheaper, easier dimmable, more efficient, ...
It would not hurt when one adds more deep red especially the new Osram Square deep-reds are hella efficient(up to 3,91 f.... μMol//J) but low driven CRI90+ COB's would do the same AND contain a certain amount of far-red already and it costs only half that much compared to secret diodes.

My old Cree COB builds had a lot of added deep-red(2 lights á 150w 3500°k/CRI80 + 20w Osram Oslon hyperred) and the results were no better than with my old Vero29gen5 fixture. Probably it would have been better if I had glued 6 far-reds to it. The added far-red this run seems to have more effect although It's only an eighth of energy.
The CRI80/90 mix + UVB works much better for me but probably due to a much better efficiency not so much because of the sepectrum. But the additional blue and UV works against the stretch and they seems earlier focused on flowering. The SuperLemonHaze stopped stretch end of week 3 almost together with the Bubba's Gift in the same tent and look almost like skunk strain with a little bit of haze! Ht difference is maybe 2-4".

But to be honest, I've made a lot of changes recently compared to last year and they've all done their part to the current results. To which percentage is really hard to say. It's still a learning curve to create an optimized spectrum but the CRI80/90 mix + UV + far-red works at least better than CRI80 white mix with deep red.

In a rush now, i need some time to carefully review.

Bottomline on the lightson far red, though, is you have to have proper red/deepred: far red ratio not to get signif stretch with far red on during lightson. If primary and/or supplemental lights contain enuff red/deepred, should not have much additional stretch, if any. Correct?