The president who cried wolf

Your basic reasoning: Because federal taxes on tobacco increased, and a majority of those who smoke earn less than 250K, Obama broke his promise not to raise taxes on those who earn less than 250K.

Why you are out of touch with reality: Tobacco has a cost on society. You and I both are effected financially because assholes like me who smoke cost assholes that don't smoke more money. If you dispute this, you are even more out of touch with reality than this simple rant can even attempt to address. So, given the fact that smokers cost everyone dollars in the end, who better to foot the bill than the assholes who are causing it? If you show me a tax that has been imposed on families earning less than 250K or individuals earning less than 200K yearly, I will gladly insert foot in mouth, just like I did when I realized there are federal taxes on tobacco. I admitted I was wrong. You need to do the same here. A tax on tobacco is not a tax on individuals. Your reasoning is for shit

dukeofbaja said:

Your basic reasoning: Because federal taxes on tobacco increased, and a majority of those who smoke earn less than 250K, Obama broke his promise not to raise taxes on those who earn less than 250K.

Why you are out of touch with reality: Tobacco has a cost on society. You and I both are effected financially because assholes like me who smoke cost assholes that don't smoke more money. If you dispute this, you are even more out of touch with reality than this simple rant can even attempt to address. So, given the fact that smokers cost everyone dollars in the end, who better to foot the bill than the assholes who are causing it? If you show me a tax that has been imposed on families earning less than 250K or individuals earning less than 200K yearly, I will gladly insert foot in mouth, just like I did when I realized there are federal taxes on tobacco. I admitted I was wrong. You need to do the same here. A tax on tobacco is not a tax on individuals. Your reasoning is for shit

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At least you are correct on one point. You summed up my basic reasoning pretty well. Good show.

Raising Federal taxes on all smokers regardless of income is a tax increase. He said he would not raise taxes on those making less than 250K, but he did it anyway. Your inability to understand that does not change the reality.

I have already explained how the states soaked the tobacco companies for damages due to sick smokers.

And tobacco taxes have been in place for a while at both the state and Federal level. The states may use those revenues however they see fit, but it would be wise to counter-effect the health care related costs of smoking. And as Health care is not a Federal issue, the taxes raised are irrelevant to health care costs related to smoking.

If you think my reasoning is for shit, it's all in your head. The shit, that is.

I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you.

Johnnyorganic said:

I did not forget anything.

The Constitution states quite clearly that anything not specifically delegated to the Federal government is a state issue. It is the responsibility of each state to choose whether to provide health care to its citizens. Constitutionally, health care/health insurance is a state issue.

This does not void any individual Constitutional protections afforded to all citizens.

The Democratic leaders claim this to be the case, but that pesky Congressional Budget Office says different. MessiahCare would be enormously expensive.

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So, the correct course to have federal regulated or federal controlled Healthcare would be to expand the bill of rights / amend to the constitution to include Health Care and or education. Then those would both fall under the federal government? Then it would be constitutional and you would support it?

In truth Obama has not yet raised taxes on the middle class. But he has certainly proposed it and that is a breech of promise in itself. If he fails to raise taxes it won't be because he was keeping the promise, but because he couldn't get it done.

vasioplunk said:

So, the correct course to have federal regulated or federal controlled Healthcare would be to expand the bill of rights / amend to the constitution to include Health Care and or education. Then those would both fall under the federal government? Then it would be constitutional and you would support it?

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You are correct.

IF the Constitution were amended specifically delegating the responsibilities of Health Care and Education to the Federal Government, I would have no choice but to accept it.

I would not have to like or support such Amendments, but I would accept them. In fact, I would fight like hell to defeat the ratification of such Amendments by my state.

Illegal Smile said:

In truth Obama has not yet raised taxes on the middle class. But he has certainly proposed it and that is a breech of promise in itself. If he fails to raise taxes it won't be because he was keeping the promise, but because he couldn't get it done.

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A middle class citizen who is a pack-a-day smoker pays an additional $225.68 in Federal taxes per year since PrezBo signed off on the tax increase.

abe23 said:

Most packs of cigarettes probably cost 250K in added health-care costs...saying it's a tax on the poor is a little bit exaggerated. I'm not for paternalist legislation in most cases, but taxing substances that are known to be harmful isn't something you're going to see me argue against. Maybe I misunderstood this...

Rising healthcare costs are something almost every american is worried about, so I do think obama has a popular mandate to do something about it.

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Sorry.... WRONG!

Keep it simple... most poor ppl smoke. It's a tax on the poor....pure and simple.

Having the govt. tax them so as to offset health care is FALSE. The insurance companies ALREADY make a smoker pay more for their policies. It's a double whammy tax.

Illegal Smile said:

In truth Obama has not yet raised taxes on the middle class. But he has certainly proposed it and that is a breech of promise in itself..

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Really? When was this?

Dragline said:

Really? When was this?

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He proposed and supported the tax on cadillac healthcare plans and he recently said he is "agnostic" about new middle class taxes. Now he proposes "fines" (read taxes) on those who don't buy insurance.

The very bottom line on this issue is whether or not you want the Government in charge of health care. In other words, do you want the same people in charge of the DMV and the post office deciding what medical treatment you get? I can see it now, 6 weeks to see a doctor, then a 4 hour wait in a crowded room just to find out you have 3 miles of red tape to deal with.

We need to fix the health care system. We need regulation that stops insurance companies from pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. But tossing the baby out with the bath water and handing it over to the Government has failed in every instance it was tried. Medicare is not the same - it is the many paying for care for the few, and even that barely works. Try to switch it around and see how that works out.

Canada has something like 25 million people IIRC, we have over 300 million and I'd bet we have a far higher percentage of professional welfare recipients than they do. And many Canadians still complain about shitty coverage.

The Obama plan is to bankrupt traditional health care providers and institute socialized medicine. If you are unemployed and plan on remaining that way, this might work out for you, but for everyone else it is going to suck big time. IMO, there are a lot of ways to fix the current system without destroying it.

BTW, stop saying people don't have medical coverage - what people don't have is insurance. Anyone can walk into a hospital and get treated. The hospital can not refuse them treatment by law. That is universal coverage.

Taxing tobacco products is not equivalent to taxing individuals. Unless of course you can prove he is making you buy those cigarettes. That argument is the biggest pile of rubbish I have ever heard. It doesn't help lend credence to anything else you have to say when you propose an argument so ridiculous.

There's no need to discuss whether Obama is a tax and spend liberal. That ship sailed long ago. He leaves ordinary tax and spend liberals in the dust with his maniacal desire to drive america to socialism.

dukeofbaja said:

Taxing tobacco products is not equivalent to taxing individuals. Unless of course you can prove he is making you buy those cigarettes. That argument is the biggest pile of rubbish I have ever heard. It doesn't help lend credence to anything else you have to say when you propose an argument so ridiculous.

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It's a tax on the poor ... none the less. Then the govt. makes the tobacco companies advertise AGAINST their very own products.... but still collect taxes from them..

Our government...

And you want more of it... double

It's a tax on a tobacco products that no one is forcing you to buy. You can avoid it by ordering cigarettes from abroad or taking a drive to the res. It is not a tax on the poor. It is a tax on tobacco products that can easily be circumvented in any number of ways.

It doesn't matter what a tax is a tax on in that ALL taxes are a drag on the economy and a way for the government class, who produce nothing, to live off the work of those who do.

This is funny......

Johnnyorganic said:

You are correct.

IF the Constitution were amended specifically delegating the responsibilities of Health Care and Education to the Federal Government, I would have no choice but to accept it.

I would not have to like or support such Amendments, but I would accept them. In fact, I would fight like hell to defeat the ratification of such Amendments by my state.

A middle class citizen who is a pack-a-day smoker pays an additional $225.68 in Federal taxes per year since PrezBo signed off on the tax increase.

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Because, you support state rights? Well some states can’t afford even a subsidized healthcare without federal support. Some states are corrupt to the core. With some of the worst schools in the United States. I mean serious corruption. And while you may tout state rights some states can barely help their own people. Not everyone lives in California, Texas, Colorado or New York Sir. They decriminalized Marijuana in Mississippi not because they are pro marijuana but because they couldn’t afford to keep it criminal. Healthcare and Education have reached a point where some states can’t afford it. California schools or even Texas schools compared to Mississippi schools.. Ya man States rights!

It is criminal that Texans get 100x better education than people in Louisiana or Mississippi.

PRESIDENT Obama,thank you.The jobs bill passed the senate tonight,with most of the good stuff included.Get ready Rightwingers.Healthcare reform is waiting in the wings.That will give you something to bitch about.

olishell said:

PRESIDENT Obama,thank you.The jobs bill passed the senate tonight,with most of the good stuff included.Get ready Rightwingers.Healthcare reform is waiting in the wings.That will give you something to bitch about.

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In approximately eight months, Proggies will have something to bitch about, too.

dukeofbaja said:

It's a tax on a tobacco products that no one is forcing you to buy. You can avoid it by ordering cigarettes from abroad or taking a drive to the res. It is not a tax on the poor. It is a tax on tobacco products that can easily be circumvented in any number of ways.

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Ur living in a hypothetical Keynesnian world.... the facts ARE that poor ppl make up the largest market when it comes to tobacco.

You must be a RUBE to think the government is not aware of that fact. You're not that naive are you?

It's a tax on the poor. Pure and simple. The fact that it eludes you is precisely the goal of the government. Stealth tax.

Folks like you make it easy for them. You enable them.

Johnny, You can spill the constitution about these things, but by the constitution the D.E.A is unconstitutional. Federal Drug laws are unconstitutional. Because it is up to the states on howto regulate this. My point is. You can spill about how federal takeover of healthcare being unconstitutional, but how is it we have federal regulations on drugs, chemicals etc. All of this should be delegated to the states. Which means our country is unconstitutional. With that it is legit to resist and depose the government. ( Obviously, there is many more constitutional violations ). This is why the Civil war was fought. This shows the Hypocrisy clearly in our government, and amongst our citizens.

If you want to fight against taxation of tobacco. Then we need to create co ops distributing tobacco freely amongst the members of the co ops. Get rid of the profit and get rid of the taxation.