To flush or not to flush when changing from veg to flower nutes

BubbaGumpHemp

Well-Known Member
I find this as an interesting reply.
To me what your doing is not a "flush".
To me a "flush" is to put multiple times the pot size in gallons of water through it. Don't do that.
"Start from a clean slate", I don't understand how you could get a "problem" from "any veg nutes still hanging around" as many people continue veg feeding into weeks 2-3 of bloom.
In bloom it is the increased P that needs to be watched. Usually from high P bloom foods and unneeded bloom "boosters".
Running straight water for a time does reduce available nutrition from synthetic nutrients. It should reduce the amount of "stored" P and that can be a good thing in the scope of the plant being able to "use" the higher P made available in high P bloom foods. Of course until the plants ability to store and use the P is surpassed by it's availability, thus creating the P tox problems seen all over this site.

At any rate I find your practice as interesting and your observations from this practice the same. I simply wanted to explain just what "flush" means to most of us.

Peace on dude.
and yes my methods are a little different than most. after college i figured if u want to see something different u got to try something different, so i stepped out of my old "by the book" way of growing and haven't looked back since (i prefer going by the latest science). there is a lot of new research out there regarding the need for synthetic nitrogen. if you use a live culture of both aerobic and anaerobic microbes they are constantly decomposing elements into usable form for the plants. forgive me but this is going to get a little scientific here. to understand why and when the plant truly needs nitrogen u need a basic understanding of how N is converted to different forms.
the first step would be the conversion of atmospheric N (which is happening in your roots all the time) through a process called nitrogen fixation which is carried out by beneficial bacteria living in the root zone the (diazotrophs) combine hydrogen with nitrogen to produce ammonia (NH4) in a process called ammonification. this is important because the latest research has shown that when soils are lacking N these beneficial organisms will produce ammonia (which is converted to NO2 during nitrification by the oxidation of ammonium) in exchange for some carbohydrates. (another fascinating thing that is yet to be fully understood by the scientific community is the fact that the plant trades back some of the amino acids it produces back into the bacteria inorder to skip the whole process of ammonium assimilation process. however NO2 still cannot be used by the plant, this requires another step, yet again by the microbes you should be adding to your soil every month at least. once the nitrites (NO2) are converted by nitrifying bacteria into nitrates (NO3) which is important because nitrite is toxic to plants, the N can finally be assimilated by the plants roots mostly as nitrate ions. once in the plant the nitrate ions are converted into ammonium ions. the ammonium ions are the final product of this long and fascinating process. once the N has been assimilated into ammonium ions the ammonium is what the plant uses to build amino acids, chlorophyll and nucleic acids, which as you know are the fundamental building blocks to life. that's the basic logic behind why i am getting away with lower N levels in early flower/late veg. microbes microbes microbes. did i mention microbes? lol this is a little overly simplified. there is a lot more complexity to the exchange of amino acids between microbes and the plant but i don't feel like typing a whole thesis here atm. BTW i do have a degree in microbiology with a minor in descriptive inorganic chemistry, i have to say this little symbiotic relationship that goes on between microbe and plant is only just now beginning to be understood. its been a lot of fun putting all these theories and research to real life application in the cultivation of cannabis :-) okay im done. just wanted to explain a bit of reasoning behind my madness. this transittion period is the part of the plant cycle that i have really been working hard to understand, as i believe it is the most critical point in the entire cycle for the best end result. yes N is very important however u can cut the added N way back in the transition. let the microbes do the fine tuning for u in transition and see your nodes get tighter and tighter
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Nicely put there Bubba.!
Great posting, I enjoy the science you share. Your methods are, as I stated earlier, interesting!
And everyone should know that if it works for you.....It WORKS.
Thanks for sharing and I may just give your method a good old American try on a few with a side by side testing.
I sure don't have anything to loose by trying! (maybe some time and work, but I like to try out different things to "see" for myself).
There are things I will closely monitor when I do.
Trying is how we learn.

Grow on!
 

BubbaGumpHemp

Well-Known Member
Nicely put there Bubba.!
Great posting, I enjoy the science you share. Your methods are, as I stated earlier, interesting!
And everyone should know that if it works for you.....It WORKS.
Thanks for sharing and I may just give your method a good old American try on a few with a side by side testing.
I sure don't have anything to loose by trying! (maybe some time and work, but I like to try out different things to "see" for myself).
There are things I will closely monitor when I do.
Trying is how we learn.

Grow on!
thank you Dr.! heck yeah thats what i always say! i love trying new techniques ive never tried or heard of :-) science is my passion well i may like cannabis a little more but i am trying to put the latest scientific info i learn to use in a real life way. i always say the day i don't enjoy learning new things is they day i just need to give up. that technique takes some tinkering thats for sure! need to find the right live cultures to use in you region, grow room, media etc., as different ratios of different species in the culture will yield different results. the strain varies it a lot as well, i havent quite figured it out yet but there seems to be a big difference between incica and sativas in how they share proteins and molecules and how much they share. sativas from what ive seen so far, seem to react better than indicas when tampering with that delicate symbiosis. not to say it wont work in indicas by any means, i just havent dialed it in. i have Bubblicious (my more sativa strain) and OG18 X purple wreck (mostly OG indica pheno) the bubblicious responded very well to my little experiment. the POG went a little N deff early in bloom, resulted in super dense buds but the node spacing has def left something to be desired, it streched like CRAZY on me whereas the Bubblicious all tightened right up and turned out spectacular. this next crop i will have mostly POG growing since i feel like i have my Bubblicious mostly figured out now. im keeping fingers crossed it can go as well.
i have a bit of a theory as to why it doesn't work so well with indicas, mind you i have no proof or research to back up my thought process (i dont believe anybody has studied sybiosis of anyplants at altitude to my knowledge yet). indica is native to areas of a generally higher altitude, meaning that the air is thinner where they grow naturally. that makes me think that the plant does not rely as heavily on that symbiosis between microbes and plant as much since there is less N and less O to oxidize the ammonium into protein chains (amindo acids, clorophyl etc.). so it may just be a genetic pre-disposition of sativas to be able to manipulate growth by biological processes. idk i find it interesting to think about, but im just a science nerd lol im entertained by funny things like that
 

215roller

Well-Known Member
No need to flush in between cycles. Once you know you're going to flip to 12/12 just back off the veg nutes. Especially if you're going to take clones.
 

kushkilla

Well-Known Member
After reading bubbagumphemp's post I feel unqualified to answer this question! But, to be hones with you what has worked for me is not really flushing @ all. I grow organic with a soil mix that enables me to just add plain water during the entire grow cycle from veg to flower. However once weekly I do "leach" the soil with a double watering so to speak. At the beginning of flower I top dress my soil with worm castings for extra N for the crazy growth and stretch during the first few weeks of flower depending on genetics. So I guess depending on what your definition of a flush is I flush every week, but to my understanding a "flush" is only necessary when using chemical fertilizers.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
^^^ I to am running far more organic runs then synthetic. I tend towards TLO style, with some spiking and some not. I prepare my own super soil and am enjoying it, as do my patients. ^^^
I never flush organic or synth grows.
But his theory is interesting.
 

kushkilla

Well-Known Member
^^^ I to am running far more organic runs then synthetic. I tend towards TLO style, with some spiking and some not. I prepare my own super soil and am enjoying it, as do my patients. ^^^
I never flush organic or synth grows.
But his theory is interesting.
The cost, efficiency, and quality of my grows improved substantially when I started using my own super soil mix. Relating to what Gump was saying I think that when you grow this way that flush is unnecessary. The microbe populous makes all the nutrients easily available to the plants which is also why I believe you can strive in an organic grow with such low NPK numbers. Since ive gone organic the only problems ive had was the occasional fungus gnat. Totally unrelated to the topic but my last watering is two weeks before harvest, and the last week of grow is complete darkness
 

BubbaGumpHemp

Well-Known Member
yea having a health thriving ecosystem in your roots alleviates a lot of the need to be supplementing the soil constantly. im not an organic grower per say, id consider it a hybrid organic/synthetic. i let the microbes do all they can do, but to get a perfectly healthy plant u still must add some NO3 so that the plant has something it can use right away when it needs it. that critical 2 week transition to flower is the time u should be able to cut out NO3 supplementation if you have healthy happy soil :p which in turn have drastically tightened the whole plant up, especially in varieties which are more sativa dominant
 

BubbaGumpHemp

Well-Known Member
Don't back off of veg nutes at all, whats the point of that?
the point tends to be to limit the amount of stretch in that pre-flower period. if theres an abundance of NO3 (the nitrogen the plant uses directly) it will have a tenancy to grow out a lot. if u limit any excess amount of NO3 in the root zone and make the plant rely on that natural nitrogen fixation process where its just N thats naturally in the air that gets converted to NO3 its a much slower process. also forces the plant to give back some amino acids and carbohydrates which will keep things tight ideally during that transition period as well. theres nothing at all wrong with feeding N all through the life cycle, this is just a new approach to the same old problem. like a rotary telephone (for those old enough to know what that is) vs. an iphone. the rotary phone is great and everybody is completely happy with it until the iphone comes along. nothing wrong with an old rotary telephone, its tried tested any everybody knows it will work every time u need it to, just sometimes u need to use a cell phone
 

RL420

Well-Known Member
Tons of studies out there done that all show the same thing, more nitrogen, more flowers, bigger flowers and higher quality flowers but like you said to each his own.
 
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