Tokers Voting NO on Proposition 19

grow4fun

Active Member
The reason for the decline in support is that people are starting to look at the down-side of Prop 19. Marijuana (1 ounce) has already just been decriminalized in California; no charges, no court, no record. You can flaunt your bag in front of a cop right now, and there's not jack they can do about it. Except maybe write you a ticket.

So now Prop 19 is mainly about economics. A lot of people feel that (both economically and otherwise) they'd have more options without it.

A website that explains all this stuff is http://no-on19.com It's made by stoners
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People are also realizing that an initiative is FOREVER. So it's not just like "well, i'll vote for this flawed one now as a first step until something better comes along". An initiative can never be changed --- ever. Except by another initiative; until someone raises huge money & a campaign for a new initiative.

That's why Dennis Peron, who wrote Proposition 215, is urgently telling people not to vote for it. He's probably the most experienced person out there on initiatives, and cannabis -- and he hates it. Makes ya wonder....

Also voting for Prop 19 blocks the way for the good initiatives that are brewing right now. That accomplish the desired goals:

1) making marijuana legal, while at the same time

2) keeping hundreds of thousands of Californians fully or partially self-employed thru cannabis, and

3) keeping the money in the state & in the pockets of the people (we're talking about $15 Billion dollars annually pumped into our economy).

4) keeping big corporations and government out of an industry that should remain people-based.

As soon as an initiative is out that does those 4 things, SIGN IT, then VOTE FOR IT.

Btw, some are saying Assemblyman Tom Ammiano has 'drafted' some proposed bill that would fix the things wrong with Prop 19. And then try and push it thru the Legislature. But Amiano's last legalization bill did not make it thru the state Legislature & it was much less liberal than this new one. So it's not likely this new one will either. If somehow it did, then it would make Prop 19 obsolete. So either way, it doesn't affect the debate on Prop 19.

just my 2c
 

calidankkk

Active Member
hey grow4fun, i totally agree with you and have been trying to tell everyone the same. everyone just thinks LEGALIZED! and they get excited and focus only on that one point while forgetting about the much larger downside there is to this. why fuck with something that isn't broken, and in fact is doing very well for itself.

i hope people read up on it and educate themselves before jumping to yes on 19. do you really want large multi-million dollar companies involved in the industry that has been established out of the efforts of individual peoples and private parties? it just doesn't seem right.

it's so important educate and make the right decision.
 

Hogg

Active Member
above posters are all morons. I hope you all get busted...Your greed and thats all it is, is harming the rest of us so you need to be removed. Rot in hell
 

guy incognito

Well-Known Member
What is wrong with Proposition 19:
(and why politicians can't discuss the real issues)

Propostion 19 is a classic example of political influence-buying by a small group of very wealthy people. Including businessmen who own million-dollar marijuana dispensaries and Big Tobacco. These individuals have a grand scheme to pull a grand coup --- to take the billions in cannabis-revenues (from cannabis-sales) which are now being equally distributed among the citizens of California (private individuals across the state, like you) and concentrate it all into the pockets of a handful of big businesses. Leaving the rest of Californians 'in the dust'.

Think about it: even if you live in a cramped dwelling in a big city, in even the smallest grow-space you can easily produce enough high-quality buds to not only pay your rent (or make your house-payment) but probably to offset your entire monthly living-expenses. You can do that anywhere in the state within the state's medical-cultivation limits. In a laundry-room, shed, spare room, or whatever. $6000 ( 2 pounds of indoor) every 2 months can come from a large closet !

That is all legal to do, right now, today. Without Proposition 19. You go to one of the many cannabis M.D.'s (who will write you a prescription for a small fee). Then you can legally produce thousands of dollars worth of cannabis. Which you should not sell, although you easily could. But you can legally be re-imbursed for your cannabis, by dispensaries for instance. Not to mention that many cannabis-doctors prescribe much larger plant-numbers than the state maximum; anyone willing to look and find one of them can cultivate 4 or 5 times the state maximum amounts, totally legally. [It is specified in the wording of 215 that the plant number on your doctor's recomendation supercedes the state maximum plant numbers and dried amounts].

The reason for the perfect balance that exists now is: right now cannabis is legal to grow, but only for individuals. People, who have gotten thier doctor-slip. Big, greedy companies can't get a doctor's-slip. Only individual citizens like you can. So right now you are the only ones who can grow & sell it legally and thus the only ones that can benefit from it's tremendous revenue.

What that means is that the annual 15 billion dollars of cannabis-revenue now go --- and EXCLUSIVELY GO --- into the pockets of regular people. Not to R.J. Reynolds Tobacco & Cannabis Company. And that this revenue is SPREAD OUT; fairly & evenly distributed far and wide throughout the state. To the people, not concentrated into the hands of the biggest company that can replace all the private parties who're growing it now. The familiar WalMart syndrome.
[Please note: any Californian can get a 'doctor-slip' ($80?). We don't condone that situation. But some feel it actually works for the best: allowing cannabis & cultivation to any adult who wants it, but through a regulated means (better than Prop 19), while preserving the State's cannabis-economy (unlike Prop 19). And anyone else can still posess an ounce.]


The phony 'people's initiative', Proposition 19, was invented by a handful of the richest 'cannabis-club' owners in Oakland. Then funded by a consortium of big-business investors to the tune of $3 million dollars, much of which was spent to PAY professional canvassers to go out and get the signatures. Multi-billionaire George Soros is now funding it, to insure industry takes away the people's largest employer. With that kind of money, we could put a lot of things onto the ballot, anyone could.

With that kind of money to play with, it becomes possible to 'meet' with city-council members and other politicians. After the meeting, the council-members are suddenly..........quite agreeable. Most people tend to agree with me when I discreetly slip $100,000 or so into thier pocket. And with the dollar-figures at stake for these entrepreneurs (billions), the players in the 'rich-cannabis-guys-buy-off-poor-local-politicians' game look at bribes of that size as just a tip.

The crafty gentlemen who crafted this so called 'initiative' are desperately using any argument they can think of to get that money into their pockets: like creating a few hundred low-paying jobs. For the same poor folks they've just disenfranchised ? The logic is: "ok, right now you're growing in your closet to supplement your day-job by a few thousand a month. Let me take that away from you and you can go to work in my cannabis-factory for minimum-wage. Isn't that a good deal ?"

Many people aren't buying that logic. Or the Prop 19ers' promise of 'giant tax-revenues to the state.' To most it's obvious there would be no increase in tax-revenues at all under Prop 19.

Conversely, if Prop 19 doesn't pass (i.e. how things are now): GIANT amounts of tax revenue are ALREADY being channeled into the state's economy. Because right now all those billions in cannabis-revenue are being collected by citizens like you, and then spent in their own localities. The local and state governments are RIGHT NOW collecting giant tax revenues, because all of the cannabis-money that private citizens make, private citizens spend. And at that point in the cycle the cannabis-money is taxed.

So if cannabis did become worth less than it is now (we doubt it): the tax collected on it's sales would then be less than the tax that's being collected from it right now. Collected from the private-citizen cannabis-revenues being spent. In stores. Supporting local businesses. What will the State do for those local businesses, to replace the percentage of thier sales that came from those billions in private-citizen-spent cannabis-dollars, once they've taken them away ? ....Nothing of course.

But those cannabis-sales revenues WILL go to the biggest company, that can swing the big contracts: R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company and Phillip-Morris Tobacco Company. Who are probably owned further up the chain by whichever multi-national company, so the revenues will eventually be deposited in Saudi Aradia, Japan, or China.

So much for the companies' argument about saving our State thru tax revenues. Prop 19 would do just the opposite. Not to mention, when was the last time you saw tax dollars that were given to the government ?

Would it be better for you to participate yourself in the present 'medical' system of pot, from which [for-profit] companies are excluded? And have the tax revenues flow through your pocket and then to the state, through the tax on things you buy with the money ? Or let the companies take the revenue out of your pocket and spend it as they see fit (meaning Californians will never see a dime of it) ?.
Possesion of an ounce has already been decrimialized (no charges, no court, no record). You can wag your bag in front of a cop and there's not a thing they can do about it, except maybe write you a ticket.
So now Prop 19 is mostly about economics. Some voters can only see the small-picture: a bag of pot may (or may not) be cheaper. They overlook the fact that right now they have available a potential means of substantial self-employment. Or supplementary employment. At home. A substantial source of income (even while employed otherwise) should the need ever arise.
In the present state of the economy, having such an option open to each and every Californian seems like good financial sense. Those with an understanding of the California economy vigorously oppose Prop 19. For example the Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce, representing the views of business-owners all over Southern California. And even Governer Schwarzenegger himself. But politicians can't discuss these dynamics openly.
Since initiatives last forever, voting yes on Proposition 19 will permanently close the door on you, to that option for income. One which is now open to all Californians.
We're reminded of the early days of NAFTA (that sent the American jobs overseas). At first all people could see was " Now I can get a lower price at WalMart (made in China), why should I care where it comes from?" Now that it affects them (all the jobs are gone and the U.S. economy lays in ruins), people see what folly it was to have allowed big corporations to do that. But too late.

The backers of the initiative want to capitalize on a very cool concept: marijuana, legal! Woohoo! That in itself is a great concept, but one must look beneath the surface, (in the case of Prop 19) at the small details.
Legalization was the very last thing rich cannabis-entrepreneurs wanted. But recently, it began to look increasingly likely. So they figured their best move was to at least control the circumstances surrounding it's legality by pushing their own legalization initiative.

Their planned scenario (about to take effect): a small number of people will make untold millions in the year or so before the market's been gutted, when the biggest fish (Big Tobacco) force everyone else out of the game. Leaving the people of California, individuals, without a source of income that has garnered Californians billions, for decades. A sad but familiar stoy.


To see an example of a 'real' voter initiaive, that legalizes marijuana-use by the people, but does not allow the government to tax it, see Jack Herer's finely-drafted initiative. The fear of REAL inititives like Mr. Herer's was undoubtedly what spurred the Oakland Cartel to come up with their alternate 'initiative' to compete with it. They suceeded, blowing it out of the water with cannabis mega-bucks and putting their WalMart-friendly pseudo-initiative on the ballot in it's place.
We encourage you to do the people of California a favor and show up at the polls November 2nd to vote NO on Proposition 19.
So what they're saying is that the system in place right now is easily scammed and taken advantage of, but its by a bunch of regular people so it's ok. And the revenue from all this feeds back into the pockets of regular people in the community, and not too heavily to any one person, or any "greedy companies", its "SPREAD OUT; fairly & evenly distributed far and wide throughout the state. To the people, not concentrated into the hands of the biggest company that can replace all the private parties who're growing it now. The familiar WalMart syndrome." Yet at the same time there are a bunch of rich "cannabis club" owners (apparently NOT profiting off the current system? independently funding this cause for no financial gain I assume?).
 

JayTrinity

Active Member
jerry brown (The governor) supports prop 215 and the safe access but challenged the right to have "Unlimited" amounts (but did not get anywhere)

jerry brown (The governor) ran from Oakland, pretty much a town that exists off prop 215.
 

guy incognito

Well-Known Member
These other tabs of that webpage are even worse. My god, I sure hope this pathetic page didn't sway too many people. Anyone brainwashed by tripe like this doesn't deserve suffrage.
 

guy incognito

Well-Known Member
No, that webpage is not about facts or rules of law. I'm not even in california, but I did in fact read prop 215 and 19 and that site is giving flat out WRONG information. I'm just going to take the first comparison on the comparison page:


How much can you possess ?

With prop 19:
may posess up to one ounce

With NO prop 19:
may posess up to 5 pounds, depending on the physician.. You must seek out one of the many cannabis-MD's available who prescribe/specify the larger quantities you need.
Some of our staff currently have recomendations for 19 pounds per person, per year.

WRONG and certainly misleading to people. The chart should look like this:

How much can you possess ?
With prop 19:
With medical card:
may posess up to 5 pounds, depending on the physician.. You must seek out one of the many cannabis-MD's available who prescribe/specify the larger quantities you need.
Some of our staff currently have recomendations for 19 pounds per person, per year.
Without medical card:
may posess up to one ounce

With NO prop 19:
With medical card:
may posess up to 5 pounds, depending on the physician.. You must seek out one of the many cannabis-MD's available who prescribe/specify the larger quantities you need.
Some of our staff currently have recomendations for 19 pounds per person, per year.
Without medical card:
NONE


Now which one is better?
 

JayTrinity

Active Member
Prop 19 would not have affected Michigan,
I guess people think prop 19 was going to "Culminate" across the world??
 

Olympus Mons

Well-Known Member
Prop 19 would not have affected Michigan,
I guess people think prop 19 was going to "Culminate" across the world??
It would have challenged federal law and the War on Drugs which we all want abolished. California lead the way with legalized medical cannabis so it is logical to assume that, had it passed, it would have set a precedent for other states to follow.
 
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