Topping and Trimming Question

Redoctober said:

Defcon9, I basically just do a few trims here and there every couple of days on different plants. I don't take that much off at one time, but good to know

Jason and darkdestruction, I think tying down would probably be a better way to go than trimming (less stressful), but I have to rig something to tie the stems to. When you tie the plants i.e. LST, do you ever untie them? Or do you let the side branches develop a bit and flower them in the tied down position?

What has happened is that I'm trying aero for the first time and the plants ran away on me a bit. I'm trying to obtain and set up a filter/fan duct system and it's been slow going, so the plants are still in veg because I'm not ready to deal with odor yet. I wanted to have it all set up 2 weeks ago, but it just hasn't worked out, and the plants (bless em) just keep vegging away like a freight train!

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One thing to be real carefull of in aero is that the pumps will heat up your water which can be a bad thing. Make sure to check water temps. I had to use a water chiller when I used aero but now I am back to hydro which works a lot better for me.

https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog10746-more-grow-pics-videos.html

darkdestruction420 said:

forgot to add-No, it will not make your plant hermie. Stripping fan leaves will stress the plant and reduce the amount of energy it can make to keep growing. the stress from them being stripped in itself isnt what i would be most(or at all for the most part, these plants are tougher than you could imagine) concerned over, its the loss of the energy making capabilities.

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Hermies generally happen when you have light leaks in your dark cycle when flowering.

https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog10746-more-grow-pics-videos.html

darkdestruction420 said:

Again though you dont show a side by side w/exactly replicated growing conditions with clones of the same age from the same mother. The topping them and lollipoping so you dont get any popcorn buds is fine and is what doubling your yeilds. I said dont cut off fan leaves b/c they are supposedly blocking light or a drain on the plants somehow or any of the other rumors like that. It's also really quick and simple to either tuck or tie the fan leaves out of the way so that makes it all the more unneeded and unwise to remove the fan leaves. We are pretty much on the same page. You kind of misunderstood me. When i see strip fan leaves in this context and the logic is that they are preventing light from getting to the budsites or that the plant has to waste energy on the fan leaves to keep them alive when its the other way around and the leaves are giving energy to the plant. the guy who we were talking to advised to cut every single fan leaf off all but the top 2 fan leaves, which is an unbelievabley bad idea. How does reducing drastically your plants ability to make energy for new growth speed up new growth? it doesnt, it also throws away all the stored energy they contained that would of been given to the buds towards the end of flower to add most of the buds final weight. thats the whole point of it storing energy...... to be used for the flowers.

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That was a great answer better advice rep for that one!

https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog10746-more-grow-pics-videos.html

My420, Amazing setup you have in those videos! You cant even tell how many plants there are, but it's very organized! My setup is somewhat similar but only with a few plants and no netting. They have formed a canopy so it's like a scrog without the screen. I'm not sure I completely understand your net method. You say you first trim any small lower branches that you know will never grow big enough to reach the canopy? Then you take the remaining side branches and train them out horizontally with the net such that they are more fanned out and even, is that correct? Wouldn't the main cola still grow straight up in the middle and dwarf all the branches being held back by the net? I must be missing a detail here, unless you top the main cola, but you mentioned that you no longer do this.

Also with bud topping (never heard of this before but it sounds interesting), you wait until the bud begins to develop correct? About how far in, 3 weeks or so? You say you then to top the buds by "pinching out the middle" I'm not sure I know what you mean exactly. I'm thinking you cut off the top half of the bud with a pair of shears? Could you clarify this because I'd like to give it a try? Thanks for all the great info and videos

Ok to these questions:
#1:You say you first trim any small lower branches that you know will never grow big enough to reach the canopy?
yes correct,

#2: Then you take the remaining side branches and train them out horizontally with the net such that they are more fanned out and even, is that correct?
No, what i do is let the plant grow up until tall enough to bend the top of the plant under a piece of the net and about 1 day later the top will turn up again toward the light. When I bend that piece to the next square piece of the net the side branches are not as long as the top so they are still in the original square. Kind of hard to explain so I made this video for you.

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/429540-bending-technique-here-example-how.html

#3you wait until the bud begins to develop correct?
Yea about 3 and 1/2 weeks or so when they are about the size of a quarter then i take my fingers and pinch the middle of the bud out so it kinda looks like an apple sitting up but on the top it kind of dips down where the stem is. So picture making the bud look the same way instead of looking like a top of something round put a dent in it like the top of an apple so you almost have a shape like this -___- instead of like this _----_ sorry this sucks but it should give you an better idea. If not I will make another video for you.

Thank you so much for the video My420 +rep! It did clear up many things. One thing I'm not sure I could see in the video, and just to clear up, you are bending and training the main cola, but are you also bending and training the side branches when they get big enough to penetrate the net? In other words, the way I'm picturing it (just judging from how my plants grow) is that you veg for "x" amount of time, and the plant has let's say one main apical stem, and several side branches. The apical stem is the first to reach and pierce the netting. When it does, you take it and bend it under the net, thereby checking its vertical growth while allowing the lower, side branches to catch up and grow through the net. In this way you trick the plant into creating more apical stems? Boy it sure looks like it's hard to keep track of the main cola after a while haha!

Now here's where I wasn't sure what you meant in the video. So at this point you continue training the original main stem under the net, weaving it in whatever pattern you like, and all the while new "side" branches, or nodes, are forming off of that main stem which, because the cola is trained horizontally by the net, now grow straight up vertically through the net towards the light instead of at 45 degree angles like side branches normally do? So, now you are in a situation where you have: one main cola continually tucked under the net forcing it to grow in a horizontal direction only, several original side branches, which have now come way up through the net, and all the new side branches coming off the main stem that have formed during the time since you started training it? Since the original side branches have probably come way up through the net by this point, would you also bend and train them as well, or only do this with the main stem? Also how do you time all of this? Do you start training while the plants are still in veg, or wait until you go 12/12 to start training?

I'm still not quite sure I understand the bud pinching. It sounds like something that would best be demonstrated visually

Thank you again for taking the time to answer all of my noob questions, I'm sorry for the sheer volume of them...what can I say, I'm a sponge

Redoctober said:

Thank you so much for the video My420 +rep! It did clear up many things. One thing I'm not sure I could see in the video, and just to clear up, you are bending and training the main cola, but are you also bending and training the side branches when they get big enough to penetrate the net? In other words, the way I'm picturing it (just judging from how my plants grow) is that you veg for "x" amount of time, and the plant has let's say one main apical stem, and several side branches. The apical stem is the first to reach and pierce the netting. When it does, you take it and bend it under the net, thereby checking its vertical growth while allowing the lower, side branches to catch up and grow through the net. In this way you trick the plant into creating more apical stems? Boy it sure looks like it's hard to keep track of the main cola after a while haha!

Now here's where I wasn't sure what you meant in the video. So at this point you continue training the original main stem under the net, weaving it in whatever pattern you like, and all the while new "side" branches, or nodes, are forming off of that main stem which, because the cola is trained horizontally by the net, now grow straight up vertically through the net towards the light instead of at 45 degree angles like side branches normally do? So, now you are in a situation where you have: one main cola continually tucked under the net forcing it to grow in a horizontal direction only, several original side branches, which have now come way up through the net, and all the new side branches coming off the main stem that have formed during the time since you started training it? Since the original side branches have probably come way up through the net by this point, would you also bend and train them as well, or only do this with the main stem? Also how do you time all of this? Do you start training while the plants are still in veg, or wait until you go 12/12 to start training?

I'm still not quite sure I understand the bud pinching. It sounds like something that would best be demonstrated visually

Thank you again for taking the time to answer all of my noob questions, I'm sorry for the sheer volume of them...what can I say, I'm a sponge

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Thank you so much for the video My420 +rep! It did clear up many things. One thing I'm not sure I could see in the video, and just to clear up, you are bending and training the main cola, but are you also bending and training the side branches when they get big enough to penetrate the net? In other words, the way I'm picturing it (just judging from how my plants grow) is that you veg for "x" amount of time, and the plant has let's say one main apical stem, and several side branches. The apical stem is the first to reach and pierce the netting. When it does, you take it and bend it under the net, thereby checking its vertical growth while allowing the lower, side branches to catch up and grow through the net. In this way you trick the plant into creating more apical stems? Boy it sure looks like it's hard to keep track of the main cola after a while

Answer to that yes correct.

to this one

Now here's where I wasn't sure what you meant in the video. So at this point you continue training the original main stem under the net, weaving it in whatever pattern you like, and all the while new "side" branches, or nodes, are forming off of that main stem which, because the cola is trained horizontally by the net, now grow straight up vertically through the net towards the light instead of at 45 degree angles like side branches normally do? So, now you are in a situation where you have: one main cola continually tucked under the net forcing it to grow in a horizontal direction only, several original side branches, which have now come way up through the net, and all the new side branches coming off the main stem that have formed during the time since you started training it? Since the original side branches have probably come way up through the net by this point, would you also bend and train them as well, or only do this with the main stem? Also how do you time all of this? Do you start training while the plants are still in veg, or wait until you go 12/12 to start training?

yes basically and I do wait till 12/12 to do it. Now the biggest reason that I do this is because of how the plant reacts. I am going to paste a post that I did before that will break down the science of it and never be sorry for asking a question. That and trial and error are the only ways we learn. SO here is a much more descriptive reason as to why to bend and what it makes the plant do and again ask as many questions as you like and if I know I will share if I do not know I will try to find out for you.

o sum this up in great detail here is something for you to ponder on.

I really hope this helps in your decision or gives you any help at all.

To start, let me explain just what low stress training is. In the thread I will refer to it as (LST). All a training is, is making your plant do something you want.The best part about LST, is the key "Low Stress". It doesn't stress your plant nearly as bad as other training methods exe. Topping. All LST involves doing is the tieing or staking down of a plants top/uppermost growth shoots in order to get more top growths. This bends the plant over and spreads the light to the undermost parts of your plants. When you do this, it makes the undergrowth bush out as well. However, spreading the light isn't what makes your plant bush out.

Auxins
I can not stress enough the importance of this word. Auxins, as defined in the science world are a type of plant growth hormone. In marijuana, they are the most import hormone when it comes to vegetative growth. In an untrained, regular marijuana plant, the auxins are most heavily distributed to the top/uppermost growth. ( Which counters your claim of losing 30% ) The plant identifies this growth as its top and strives to grow it up towards the light more than the other lower growths. This is where LST comes into play. When you bend a plants top growth over, the plant identifies that it's top growth is no longer growing up, and it works to gain a new top growth. In essence, the auxins spread throughout your whole plant and this creates new growth along your nodes that have the potential to be equal to a "top bud or cola". Here is an example on the growth a plant recieves from the auxins being redistributed via. LST.

View attachment 1171750View attachment 1171753View attachment 1171793View attachment 1171800View attachment 1171819

Please take note at the new growth between the nodes. This is the work of the auxins. Also, take a look in the last picture as to where the original "top growth" is, and where the new top growth is. The plant created new ones. When flowering, this will give you more top buds, but less smaller popcorn buds that formed along the bottom of a regular grown plant. This particular LST grow was done with a smaller plant, but you can do it with large plants like in the video link I will post at the bottom.

Now, let's take a look at the reasons why we LST.

1. Space- Many of times growers do not have the space to allow their plant to grow through the vegetative and flowering phase straight up (PC grows, attic grows, box grows). This is where LST comes into play. By tieing/staking down your plant, instead of growing vertically your plant grows horizontally, allowing your plant to still develop to maturity without growing up against your lights..

2. Light- As a plant grows upward towards the light, you constantly have to move your lighting fixture up to keep from burning your plant. As your light gets higher up, it gets further away from your bottom nodes and leaves. This can cause for more scraggly buds and leaves on the bottom of your plant, and put a dent in your harvest. This is especially true when you have lower powered lights(t5, CFLs, etc.)However, if you LST your plant sort of grows horizontally, allowing all of your budsites that grow up to be more exposed to the light. You will still have upward growth, just not as much depending on how long you let your new growth shoots grow before flowering, or LSTing the new growth down.

3. Stealth- Many of times those outdoor plants you have growing by the fence in the backyard just get too tall. What to do? Instead of growing up, just grow horizontally. This can keep those pesky neighbors from knowing that you have more than tomatoes growing in the yard.

Last but not least, let's learn how to LST. LST can be done in many fashions. I will first explain how to do it the easiest and most inexpensive way that if you make a mistake it does not kill you financially or make you re do hours of work. /SIZE]

The Closehanger​

For this method, all you need is a closehanger, wirecutters, some string or wire, and a piece of ducttape. This is for younger and smaller plants and very cost effective and easy way to do it. I use only netting string and PVC pipe as I find it is easy to cut the PVC and you can leave the legs in your tray as it will not rot in water and works well when your plants increase in size.

Step 1: Cut your closehanger into straight pieces (8-12 inches depending on how tall your plant is). You want the top of the closehanger to be anywhere from 4-6 inches below the top of your plant.

Step 2: Put a Crook or a bend in the end of the closehanger piece. This allows you to put the 2nd node down from the top of your plant under it.

Step 3: This is called the countertie, and is probably one of the most important steps. Take your string or wire and make you a piece long enough to reach from the base of your plant to the edge of your pot. Tie your string or wrap your wire about 3 inches up the base of your plant and run it to the edge of the pot. Don't pull on the plant, just make sure it isn't loose. Tape the other end of the wire/string to your pot. This gives a counter resistance to your LST so that your plant doesn't get uprooted on the stake down.

Step 4: Place your closehanger in the dirt of your pot, with the crooked end up.

Step 5: GENTLY bend your plants top over and place it under the closehanger.
View attachment 1171859
Step 6: As your original top growth, and new top shoots begin to grow up, you can continue to stake them down and get lots of new growth. Repeat the process until you are satisfied with the bushiness and amount of top shoots that are on your plant. At this point you may let your plant grow as tall as you want or just switch to 12/12. I reccomend for indoor growers with limited space, as soon as you have the amount of top shoots you want that you switch to 12/12 as the plant will bush out incredibly if you continue to veg.

That is just the way I do LST. I'm not saying it's the best way, or it's the most effective. It's all a matter of personal preference. There are many other ways to do this including.

1. Screw and string Method- This simply involves screwing screws into the lip of your pot all the way around (8-12 of them). You then tie your plants top down to the screw nearest it with string. As new top growths emerge, keep tieing them down to screws around the pot of course bigger plants require a different setup like mine or similar.

2. Weighting- All you need to do here, is get some sort of a weight (Fishing weights, clips, or anything your plant can't lift). You then tie a string to this weight, and tie it to your top node. It pulls it down, and as new top growths appear tie them down with more weights until you have the desired amount of new upper growths.

3.Object Tieing- For bigger outdoor or indoor plants, you can find some sort of an object that the plant can't move, like PVC pipe or something else that is not easily broken and can support the weight of the colas and being able to handle the string being tied tightly to each end with out bowing inward or breaking.

As you can see, there are tons of ways to LST. When it comes to Low Stress Training, there really is no wrong way. Just tie your plant down, spread the auxins, and watch the new growth.

I really hope this helps people better understand LST and get a better feel of what to do when it comes to training their plant and here is the link to my grow using this technique and I really hope it pisses Thexception off more lol.

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/429540-bending-technique-here-example-how.html

Terrific info My420
It's all about auxins!
I think the net method is the one for me. What kind of netting do you use in yours? I looked at home depot but couldn't find anything resembling what you had in the video.
I am thinking that I will start training well before bloom so as to end up with more side branches filling up the netting. I even had grand aspirations of a vertical training grow where I would allow a plant to grow a bit, then switch to a hanging vertical bulb next to the plant and train the branches sideways, wrapping around the bulb in a semicircle, if that makes sense. Think of a garden wire fence set up to form a circle with a bulb in the midle and a few plants spaced evenly around the outside perimeter of the fence. The branches would then want to grow inward towards the bulb, but they would be trained using the fence, their branches weaving their way around the circle until they are eventually allowed to penetrate and flower, filling the entire fence. That would be fun!

The part of this technique that probably comes with experience is knowing when to train the branches and for how long. In contemplating the nature of the training, you'd ideally want to time it such that the branches and side nodes poking through the net should be a fairly even height at the last few weeks of flower in order to form an even canopy of buds, is that right?
In a standard scrog setup, I've seen people actually go into a scrog phase where every few days they tuck all branches and leaves back under the net until it is flower time. Then let the entire canopy rise up at once. But your training is a bit different than that. You are definitely training the apical stem, and I believe some of the side branches as well, but some of them make it through while the main stem is still under (or so it seems from the video).

So I guess my question is how do you time it so that you end up with the even canopy in the video and a bunch of canopy buds that are all the same(ish) sizes? In other words what would be the sequence of "releasing" the various branches from under the netting and allowing them to go vertical? Or...how do you know which branches to tuck, and how long before you let them go? Because the buds are already forming while you are training with the net, which is different from a traditional scrog (I think).

Also at what point in time do you do the bud pinching technique? Is this while they are still under the net being trained, or only after they go vertical?

I think I might need a more idiot friendly explanation of your pinching method if you get a chance? The idea I have in my head of your method may be right, but it could also be totally wrong and cause the universe to explode!

Oh, I also forgot to ask, can you use training to get tighter node spacing somehow? Or is that simply a function of light wattage?