Totalitarianism Marches On ....

"Thieving is going on everywhere, it's just that the poor are prosecuted for it and the rich aren't"

Enron?

While your statement above may have been true in the past, tough laws have been passed to punish corporate thieves severely. This is one of Bush's accomplishments.

NCIA: News & Events - Mr. Liberty

Vi
 
ViRedd said:
"Thieving is going on everywhere, it's just that the poor are prosecuted for it and the rich aren't"

Enron?

While your statement above may have been true in the past, tough laws have been passed to punish corporate thieves severely. This is one of Bush's accomplishments.

Yeah right. Lets see how many savings and loan companies are prosecuted for bogus loans, how many un-scrupoulous realtors are prosecuted for over-inflating home values, how Haliburton will be prosecuted for lost trillions of taxpayer money, wake the fuck up. The poor go to jail every day for stealing nickles and the rich steal millions and walk away clean.
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1. Loan brokers ARE being prosecuted as we speak.

2. Real estate agents don't inflate the price of homes. The market does. If what you say is true, is it also true that real estate agents are now deflating the prices of homes?

3. Unless you can show some facts regarding Halliburton "losing" trillions of taxpayer's money, I'll just disregard your statement on that and consider it to be more of your hyperbole.

4. You're correct, the poor go to jail every day. So do the middle class and the wealthy.

Vi
 
ViRedd said:
1. Loan brokers ARE being prosecuted as we speak.

2. Real estate agents don't inflate the price of homes. The market does. If what you say is true, is it also true that real estate agents are now deflating the prices of homes?

3. Unless you can show some facts regarding Halliburton "losing" trillions of taxpayer's money, I'll just disregard your statement on that and consider it to be more of your hyperbole.

4. You're correct, the poor go to jail every day. So do the middle class and the wealthy.

Vi
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Well, since the jails-prisons are 99% filled with poor people, I guess your anology is bogus. BTW if I could prove Haliburton stole the money, I'd be assassinated quickly. That is top secret shit. Why do you think even the congress won't go after them. Those fuckers are the rulers. Also, The prices are coming down because they were over inflated, DUH!
 
medicineman said:
Well, since the jails-prisons are 99% filled with poor people, I guess your anology is bogus. BTW if I could prove Haliburton stole the money, I'd be assassinated quickly. That is top secret shit. Why do you think even the congress won't go after them. Those fuckers are the rulers. Also, The prices are coming down because they were over inflated, DUH!
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1. There are more poor people than rich people, so it stands to reason that there would be more poor people in jail than rich people in jail.

2. So, Halliburton's thieving ways are "top secret" but YOU know they stole the money? Now how bizarre is THAT?

3. Housing prices are coming down because there is less of a demand than there was during the "boom." Its all supply and demand, Med.

Vi
 
ViRedd said:
1. There are more poor people than rich people, so it stands to reason that there would be more poor people in jail than rich people in jail.

2. So, Halliburton's thieving ways are "top secret" but YOU know they stole the money? Now how bizarre is THAT?

3. Housing prices are coming down because there is less of a demand than there was during the "boom." Its all supply and demand, Med.

Vi
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You are wrong wrong wrong. I'l not debate this any longer as you have left the field of reason. BTW, where did those billions go??? Also there is no demand because no-one can afford to buy a home at this time. I'm sure glad I didn't listen to your advice to mortgage my homes and go out and buy more. What a set-up that was.
 
medicineman said:
You are wrong wrong wrong. I'l not debate this any longer as you have left the field of reason. BTW, where did those billions go??? Also there is no demand because no-one can afford to buy a home at this time. I'm sure glad I didn't listen to your advice to mortgage my homes and go out and buy more. What a set-up that was.
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Actually, now would be a good time. There is a huge pent up demand right now ... and activity is really starting to pick up at this point. As soon as the media starts reporting positive news prices will go through the roof again. Come on Med ... now's your chance to take a risk and reap the gains. :blsmoke:

Vi
 
medicineman said:
Theft is disguised in many ways.
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your definitions of theft fall right in line with popular marxist theory and, like many a stalinist before you, your solutions always seem to involve even greater evils than those you wish to resolve.

The owning of the media by 4-6 large corporations is theft in a way as it limits the viewpoints being presented.
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and yet, all across the internet differing points of view are presented for anyone willing to seek them out. public access and alternate publications are everywhere, if only you expend the energy to look for them. as with anything, effort is rewarded and the indolent are left with the crumbs. as it should be.

Stock holders that sit on their dead asses and rake in the profits by reason of having enough money to buy stock are basically stealing from the wealth pool. All greedy people steal from the wealth pool by hoarding their capital.
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just who do you think it is that owns these stocks and what do you think those funds are used for? your retirement accounts are invested in the market, i've got a couple of old 401's that are heavily invested in some rather risky shit. hell, the stock market is crawling with little folks hoping to strike it rich. those willing to gamble their savings to fund enterprise surely deserve something back for the risks involved. without public trading the wealth would be restricted into a tighter and tighter circle of people until only a few owned it all and the rest of us lived in that comfortable poverty you so adore.

Corporations are among the largest thieves, government is right in there. The players in government are really thieving scumbags, right in concert with the corporations and the elites, scumbags all.
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your corporate bogeyman is getting old and the grand conspiracy you feel is ruining our lives is just as tired. though surely conspiracies exist, your paranoia seems to be mounting and you might try seeking some professional help.:lol: i would agree, however, that government is the largest threat. they buy the public trust with deception and sell it for the power to control our lives.

Is a white collar thief that cheats on his taxes any less guilty than the poor man that steals a sandwich from an AM-PM? Does the poor man deserve 5 years in jail for a 5.00 sandwich while the white collar thief steals thousands and gets a slap on the wrist? Thieving is going on everywhere, it's just that the poor are prosecuted for it and the rich aren't.

....since the jails-prisons are 99% filled with poor people, I guess your analogy is bogus.
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and just where so you suppose the inequities in our judicial system originate? between this ill conceived war on drugs and the constant struggle for politicians to purchase more and more power, it's no wonder justice is on sale to the highest bidder. prosecutors attempting to climb the political ladder, law enforcement corruption and moronic judges handed their positions in return for political support can all be traced back to the inordinate amount of power we have handed to our government. bigotry and stupidity are commonplace in the system precisely because the people have lost control of the government they created.

....if I could prove Haliburton stole the money, I'd be assassinated quickly.
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again with the conspiracies?:roll:
 
undertheice said:
your definitions of theft fall right in line with popular marxist theory and, like many a stalinist before you, your solutions always seem to involve even greater evils than those you wish to resolve.

and yet, all across the internet differing points of view are presented for anyone willing to seek them out. public access and alternate publications are everywhere, if only you expend the energy to look for them. as with anything, effort is rewarded and the indolent are left with the crumbs. as it should be.

just who do you think it is that owns these stocks and what do you think those funds are used for? your retirement accounts are invested in the market, i've got a couple of old 401's that are heavily invested in some rather risky shit. hell, the stock market is crawling with little folks hoping to strike it rich. those willing to gamble their savings to fund enterprise surely deserve something back for the risks involved. without public trading the wealth would be restricted into a tighter and tighter circle of people until only a few owned it all and the rest of us lived in that comfortable poverty you so adore.

your corporate bogeyman is getting old and the grand conspiracy you feel is ruining our lives is just as tired. though surely conspiracies exist, your paranoia seems to be mounting and you might try seeking some professional help.:lol: i would agree, however, that government is the largest threat. they buy the public trust with deception and sell it for the power to control our lives.

and just where so you suppose the inequities in our judicial system originate? between this ill conceived war on drugs and the constant struggle for politicians to purchase more and more power, it's no wonder justice is on sale to the highest bidder. prosecutors attempting to climb the political ladder, law enforcement corruption and moronic judges handed their positions in return for political support can all be traced back to the inordinate amount of power we have handed to our government. bigotry and stupidity are commonplace in the system precisely because the people have lost control of the government they created.

again with the conspiracies?:roll:
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Ho-Hum, boring. What nonsense you speak. Try and come up with some original thought, if possible. Defending Bush and Cheney and Haliburton shows how ignorant you really are. You're fiddling while Rome is burning. Blind obedience is still blind.
 
There are none so ignorant as those who think they are informed when they are not.

Med ... did you actually read Undertheice's last post? Hardly "boring."

Vi
 
ViRedd said:
There are none so ignorant as those who think they are informed when they are not.

Med ... did you actually read Undertheice's last post? Hardly "boring."

Vi[/quo

When ones position is to defend Bush and criticize the left at every twist and turn with every post, Sort of like you, It's extremely boring. Yeah, I get it, you hate the left, the stinking commie bastards, boring............................
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undertheice said:
greed was never the enemy. it's as natural as fuckin' and just as necessary to the survival of the species. the desire for the accumulation of goods as a means of guaranteeing the perpetuation of the species. once the point of satiation is reached mankind's more charitable traits are allowed to kick in and those incapable of success, for whatever reason, may be taken care of.


that's what i get for watching the national geographic channel too much. :razz:
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This is a crock. Early societies practiced a kind of tribal communism. They did not have the same concept as ownership as we did. This really kicked in around the time when agriculture began. And went into overdrive during the industrial revolution.

People usually use this excuse to justify the way things are. So they do not have to feel guilty.

You self defense mechanism is transparent.

Unfortunatley this mindset is making the planet unihabitable and we are bumping up against the plants limits in resources. Free-market capitalism is about to kill a lot of people via high fuel and food prices.

Welcome to the beginning of the dark ages. Infinite growth does not work on a finite planet....
 
medicineman said:
Ho-Hum, boring. What nonsense you speak. Try and come up with some original thought, if possible.
Click to expand...
the nonsense i speak may seem unoriginal to you because it is common knowledge, just as the drivel you spout is the typical rhetoric of socialist dogma and the double-speak of big government lackeys. we can spend our entire lives blaming our failures on faceless corporations or we can step up and, taking responsibility for our own lives, grab hold of those opportunities that present themselves. you seem to believe in the philosophy of the former, i find the latter to be more productive.

Defending Bush and Cheney and Haliburton shows how ignorant you really are. You're fiddling while Rome is burning. Blind obedience is still blind.
Click to expand...
i have never been accused of being an apologist for governmental corruption and i find it a rather unique experience. because i refuse to scapegoat one administration, i suppose those with a narrow view of the situation may see me as such and are welcome to that opinion. i prefer to consider our situation to be only a point along the way in our evolving political and economic systems. while you may follow the notion that we should passively allow government to turn us into children dependent on their good will to solve our social woes, i believe that the private sector and the people themselves are more than capable of making positive change. where you see government restraints on the market as necessary to save us from ourselves, i see them as just another avenue to enslave the very people they are sworn to protect. you seem to have a deep and abiding trust in the government you profess to detest. i see it as an institution filled with mere mortals who crave power and are more than willing to prostitute themselves to gain it, the need for which we must grow out of if we are to ever achieve our full potential as a society.
 
undertheice said:
the nonsense i speak may seem unoriginal to you because it is common knowledge, just as the drivel you spout is the typical rhetoric of socialist dogma and the double-speak of big government lackeys. we can spend our entire lives blaming our failures on faceless corporations or we can step up and, taking responsibility for our own lives, grab hold of those opportunities that present themselves. you seem to believe in the philosophy of the former, i find the latter to be more productive.

i have never been accused of being an apologist for governmental corruption and i find it a rather unique experience. because i refuse to scapegoat one administration, i suppose those with a narrow view of the situation may see me as such and are welcome to that opinion. i prefer to consider our situation to be only a point along the way in our evolving political and economic systems. while you may follow the notion that we should passively allow government to turn us into children dependent on their good will to solve our social woes, i believe that the private sector and the people themselves are more than capable of making positive change. where you see government restraints on the market as necessary to save us from ourselves, i see them as just another avenue to enslave the very people they are sworn to protect. you seem to have a deep and abiding trust in the government you profess to detest. i see it as an institution filled with mere mortals who crave power and are more than willing to prostitute themselves to gain it, the need for which we must grow out of if we are to ever achieve our full potential as a society.
Click to expand...

:clap:

I wholly agree with this post however I as much as I hope we could grow out of human nature's lust for greed and power, I do not find it plausible to acquire it convivially.

It would take the power of the people.
 
Arraya said:
This is a crock. Early societies practiced a kind of tribal communism. They did not have the same concept as ownership as we did. This really kicked in around the time when agriculture began. And went into overdrive during the industrial revolution.
Click to expand...

i am, admittedly, a bit of a dreamer. i believe that humans, no matter how evil they may seem, are capable of understanding that doing the right thing is actually in their own self-interest. i'm also no fool, i understand that to expect the entire race to realize that simple fact overnight is an idiotic notion and i see the need for some sort of control. what i rail against is the notion of tighter and tighter controls in an age when we should be worrying more about educating people in the use of their freedoms. it seems rather counter-productive to treat the people more and more like children when the rational goal is their independence.

People usually use this excuse to justify the way things are. So they do not have to feel guilty.
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i don't see that i have that much to feel guilty about. i've spent most of my adult life understanding that undermining others does me no good. perhaps i'm one of those unfortunate unevolved souls, trapped in a modern society with a tribal sense of self. possibly my sense of charity is more evolved than average, more willing to share what there is and naively hoping that others may follow the same path. probably i'm quite mad and have no real place in your oh so sane world.
 
undertheice said:
i am, admittedly, a bit of a dreamer. i believe that humans, no matter how evil they may seem, are capable of understanding that doing the right thing is actually in their own self-interest. i'm also no fool, i understand that to expect the entire race to realize that simple fact overnight is an idiotic notion and i see the need for some sort of control. what i rail against is the notion of tighter and tighter controls in an age when we should be worrying more about educating people in the use of their freedoms. it seems rather counter-productive to treat the people more and more like children when the rational goal is their independence.

Oddly, I agree with you here.

i don't see that i have that much to feel guilty about. i've spent most of my adult life understanding that undermining others does me no good. perhaps i'm one of those unfortunate unevolved souls, trapped in a modern society with a tribal sense of self. possibly my sense of charity is more evolved than average, more willing to share what there is and naively hoping that others may follow the same path. probably i'm quite mad and have no real place in your oh so sane world.
Click to expand...

Oh, the world I see is not sane. I was just saying greed is not human nature it's human behavior which is a construct of our culture.
 
medicineman said:
Maybe self interests are all right when tempered with a modicum of social conscience, otherwise it's just "Old selfish Bastard".
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That exactly what I meant all those times when I said that greed (self interest), positively directed, is a good thing.

Vi
 
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