Types of libertarians

UncleBuck said:

and as far as what i would do to cut the gap....

raise the ss age a shitload. it was never meant to take care of people with so many years left. also, raise the cap on earnings from 107k to as high as i fucking could. allow for early entry into ss at a reduced benefit table.

military pullback bla bla bla

other big one is healthcare, not so sure here...insurers will have to eventually make sure 80% of their funds go to actual healthcare thanks to ppaca, but i would love to see administrative costs even lower like other countries. modernizing health records would help, but lots of people have their justified privacy concerns...oh what a pickle. in any case, lower admin costs on healthcare would be my first concern, with forcing them all to be non profit as my far reaching goal.

i would not do a thing to hurt social assistance programs like unemployment insurance as the right wing is currently doing since UI acts as a stimulus far better than tax cuts to millionaires. i would let tax rates for the more wealthy increase to pre-W levels, but not 250...adjust for inflation...make it 500 or a million...but historically, tax rates have been much higher and the republic has prevailed, even boomed. hell, i would enact a billionaire tax rate...not to punish the accomplishment of becoming a billionaire, but to ensure the well being of the society from which billions of dollars were derived, and because most companies that pull in so much dough from us find a way to not pay anything at all.

capital gains tax goes up, payroll tax sharply decreased and dependent upon number of employees.

other social assistance and other programs go untouched....the national parks, planned parenthood, food stamps, animal control...no hurt.

education would be a good investment. perhaps they would be the beneficiaries of the billionaire tax.

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I think your point about unemployment and the republican's is a bit misguided. I don't think the repubs are against unemployment insurance so much as they wanted the Bush tax cuts extended. We are taling about extensions here which don't occur with this magnitude under normal circumstances. I am not sure what percentage of unemployment is federally funded under normal circumstances anyways. It was always my understanding that the employer and employee pay for the bulk of it.

Johnnyorganic said:

Exactly at what point did I make it personal, Meddie?

Specific example, please.

It shouldn't be hard. I only made one post prior to this.











Who is stupid?

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How gratifying it is when Progressives need comic strips (and Comedy Central & SNL) to explain their own opinions to them.

All the while dismissing their opposition (or is it enemies?) as stupid.
Seems this is a little sideways ad hominum attack, no? Suggesting progressives (Me) are so idiotic that they only can converse through comedy. I know your demeaner John, and you were certainly coming at me sideways, Yeah, I was putting all the preconcieved notions about libertarians out there, but lord knows, you righties have never made fun of us progressives, eh?? BTW, opposition pretty much means enemies, just look at congress. I've been on this site for 3+ years and have never yet seen any capitulation between progressives and conservatives. If you have, please inform me. If anyone has ever capitulated, it was probably me., I am open to compromises, It is hard to find from conservatives.

medicineman said:

How gratifying it is when Progressives need comic strips (and Comedy Central & SNL) to explain their own opinions to them.

All the while dismissing their opposition (or is it enemies?) as stupid.
Seems this is a little sideways ad hominum attack, no? Suggesting progressives (Me) are so idiotic that they only can converse through comedy. I know your demeaner John, and you were certainly coming at me sideways, Yeah, I was putting all the preconcieved notions about libertarians out there, but lord knows, you righties have never made fun of us progressives, eh?? BTW, opposition pretty much means enemies, just look at congress. I've been on this site for 3+ years and have never yet seen any capitulation between progressives and conservatives. If you have, please inform me. If anyone has ever capitulated, it was probably me., I am open to compromises, It is hard to find from conservatives.

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Oh Meddie!

medicineman said:

How gratifying it is when Progressives need comic strips (and Comedy Central & SNL) to explain their own opinions to them.

All the while dismissing their opposition (or is it enemies?) as stupid.
Seems this is a little sideways ad hominum attack, no? Suggesting progressives (Me) are so idiotic that they only can converse through comedy. I know your demeaner John, and you were certainly coming at me sideways, Yeah, I was putting all the preconcieved notions about libertarians out there, but lord knows, you righties have never made fun of us progressives, eh?? BTW, opposition pretty much means enemies, just look at congress. I've been on this site for 3+ years and have never yet seen any capitulation between progressives and conservatives. If you have, please inform me. If anyone has ever capitulated, it was probably me., I am open to compromises, It is hard to find from conservatives.

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You present a cartoon and I merely point out that it's funny how Proggies use it (as well as Comedy Central & SNL) to explain and understand their viewpoints.

So just responding to your post is a personal attack.

I stated this previously, but it bears repeating because I'm addressing your dumb ass.

You took it personally.

I'm glad we cleared that up.

Ain't it funny how bullies claim victim status when they get their eyes dotted?

We all saw what Progressive compromise looked like before the election. It looked like a Porkulus Package. It looked like Cappy Trade. It looked like MessiahCare.

Obama summed it up when he was 'negotiating' with Republicans during the health care brouhaha. His response and I quote him directly, "I won."

Happily he has changed his tune recently and he now agrees with the Right that a tax increase is not the best idea during an economic downturn. I can live with that kind of compromise, and the Donks get what they want - deadbeats get their earned income credits (wealth transfers) and unemployment subsidies.

Johnnyorganic said:

deadbeats

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and you accuse the left of arrogance and elitism

i guess the wealthy who also collect unemployment insurance (not subsidies) are deadbeats too?

nice sweeping generalization.

i suppose anyone who was gainfully employed yet lost their job through no fault of their own are all deadbeats to you.

forget the fact that during a time of 9.8 percent unemployment (forget who caused this and how), you somehow believe the fairy tale that supply side, trickle down economics will provide a tangible stimulus to the economy...please try to justify your position that unemployment insurance is not seen by all economists, left and right, as one of the best and cost effective stimuli around...whereas tax breaks to billionaires are not.

deadbeats ... i see them everyday

UncleBuck said:

and you accuse the left of arrogance and elitism

i guess the wealthy who also collect unemployment insurance (not subsidies) are deadbeats too?

nice sweeping generalization.

i suppose anyone who was gainfully employed yet lost their job through no fault of their own are all deadbeats to you.

forget the fact that during a time of 9.8 percent unemployment (forget who caused this and how), you somehow believe the fairy tale that supply side, trickle down economics will provide a tangible stimulus to the economy...please try to justify your position that unemployment insurance is not seen by all economists, left and right, as one of the best and cost effective stimuli around...whereas tax breaks to billionaires are not.

deadbeats ... i see them everyday

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Not accuse, Buck. I merely point out the obvious.

And even though we may disagree, I would never call you my enemy unless you proved to me with your actions that you are my enemy.

Unemployment is a trap.

The employer pays the state and federal unemployment taxes the employee never sees, but pays nonetheless. Then if a time comes when the person is unemployed, the government essentially bails them out. The government. Not themselves. Not the employer who paid the taxes.

Meanwhile a person may let an opportunity pass them by for whatever reason, because the government is subsidizing their inactivity.

As time passes, it is harder and harder for an unemployed person to find work. I am sure there is some psychological reasoning behind this, but the statistics bear it out.

I pay for it in the form of lower wages because I have no choice. But I won't apply for it if the time comes. I'll just get another job. While it may be true that I might not be making as much money as I think I should, I'll still be working.

Government programs suck the initiative right out of you.

You object to the word deadbeat? Tough.

Welfare Queens - deadbeats.
99ers - deadbeats.
Illegal aliens who consume public services - deadbeats.
Any able-bodied, working-age, person who chooses to stay home and collect a government check rather than work or go to school - deadbeats.

There are more, but you get the idea.

I like you, Buck.

Even when we trade barbs, it's all in good fun.

And even though Meddie would never believe it... I like him, too.

I enjoy pushing his buttons and watching the ensuing histrionics.

Medicineman make Johnnyorganic go 'Ha ha!'

Johnnyorganic said:

I like you, Buck.

Even when we trade barbs, it's all in good fun.

And even though Meddie would never believe it... I like him, too.

I enjoy pushing his buttons and watching the ensuing histrionics.

Medicineman make Johnnyorganic go 'Ha ha!'

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are you kidding man? i love you and your well thought out responses. doc too.

i would chip in more but this whole making rent without government subsidizing my laziness is crippling me. simply CRIPPLING.

if it weren't for the government subsidizing my indolent, deadbeat lifestyle, i probably would have starved to death or gone homeless before i got on my own two feet again with my own business. yes, if it weren't for that measly, below poverty check so coveted by deadbeats like myself, i would be hogging money from the economy instead of injecting money back into it.

unemployment is not the trap, my friend, it is the cycle of poverty. there are very few deadbeats in this world, but a lot of people who don't have anything near the opportunity that someone like you or i have.

YOU KNOW THIS.

Johnnyorganic said:

Not accuse, Buck. I merely point out the obvious.

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if you are not accusing, then what is so obvious?

is it obvious that anyone who ever collected unemployment of utilized the EIC is a deadbeat, as you claim? not by any stretch.

i would love to hear you explain that to the multitude of people that i know, qualified, hard work ethic people, that WANT to work but can not find it. some deadbeats.

you simply have more opportunities than the average joe, i would wager. you hold this against those trapped in the cycle of poverty. that is the definition of elitism.

agreed, there are some who truly are deadbeats, but i would not use the label as broadly as you choose to. plenty of 99'ers are simply people like myself, laid off an artificially high paying job, willing to accept lower pay but being rejected/blackballed as a bad pay level fit or unemployed for too long, willing to accept equal or higher pay but not quite qualified against the field of college grads in those jobs. i would be counted quite technically as a 'discouraged worker'...which is not quite accurate as i am working harder than ever to make rent in my own way (not male prostitution).

i just think you are using the term deadbeat way too broadly. i'm sure you know a few hard working, qualified people who don't deserve what they are getting from this recession.

UncleBuck said:

i guess the wealthy who also collect unemployment insurance (not subsidies) are deadbeats too?

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80% of wealthy people are self employed. Self employed people are not eligible for Unemployment benefits.

UncleBuck said:

if you are not accusing, then what is so obvious?

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What is obvious is that Donks love to accuse those on the Right of being elitists, yet dismiss those on the Right as being stupid. Or uninformed. Or ignorant.

And I love how Proggies cling to their elected officials who went to Ivy League schools and demean the opponents of those same elected officials because they went to some third-rate state college nobody ever heard of.

Or how they went after John McCain because his wife owned seven houses. But John Kerry has a fucking yacht he still has not paid sales taxes on in his home state. Not even a whimper from your side.

The selective indignation of the Left makes me want to laugh until I upchuck.

You point out to me all the time when you feel I am showing hubris. But the key fact you seem to ignore is I don't deny it.

I merely point out the irony of the situation because it's just so damn funny.

UncleBuck said:

is it obvious that anyone who ever collected unemployment of utilized the EIC is a deadbeat, as you claim? not by any stretch.

i would love to hear you explain that to the multitude of people that i know, qualified, hard work ethic people, that WANT to work but can not find it. some deadbeats.

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Of course they are not all deadbeats. They are just fools, because as I stated previously - unemployment benefits are a trap.

I just talked to my uncle who is a business owner, his unemployment taxes just jumped from 2% to 6%. Just what do you think that will do to his ability to hire new employees?

I'll tell you who are deadbeats: The 99ers. In fact, anyone drawing unemployment six months or longer is a deadbeat. Tell me with a straight face that someone not working almost two years, two fucking years(!), can't find some kind of work.

I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but even I know that if you can't find work doing what you know, you re-train.

UncleBuck said:

you simply have more opportunities than the average joe, i would wager. you hold this against those trapped in the cycle of poverty. that is the definition of elitism.

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This country is saturated with educational opportunities. The vast majority of Americans live within driving distance of a learning institution be it a university, college, junior college, or community college. And let's not forget distance learning via the internet.

You can shovel that horseshit somewhere else.

UncleBuck said:

agreed, there are some who truly are deadbeats, but i would not use the label as broadly as you choose to. plenty of 99'ers are simply people like myself, laid off an artificially high paying job, willing to accept lower pay but being rejected/blackballed as a bad pay level fit or unemployed for too long, willing to accept equal or higher pay but not quite qualified against the field of college grads in those jobs. i would be counted quite technically as a 'discouraged worker'...which is not quite accurate as i am working harder than ever to make rent in my own way (not male prostitution).

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Yeah it's probably best to take a pass on the whole gigolo thing. You might find that you have to bed more than a few heifers.

UncleBuck said:

i just think you are using the term deadbeat way too broadly. i'm sure you know a few hard working, qualified people who don't deserve what they are getting from this recession.

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And there are people who never file for unemployment benefits. They just go do something else. They do not expect a handout from Uncle Sugar.

They just go out there and do it.

Johnnyorganic said:

Of course they are not all deadbeats. They are just fools, because as I stated previously - unemployment benefits are a trap.

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a trap, eh?

people must clamor mightily for the opportunity to live at poverty level, by your logic.

how foolish it is to accept the only thing that will put food on the table while you look for new work or re-train.

BLITHERING FOOLS!

Johnnyorganic said:

anyone drawing unemployment six months or longer is a deadbeat.

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meanie.

i will tell you with a straight face that i have honestly looked for work at, below, and above my previous pay level for going on 1.5 years now. sent out hundreds of tailored resumes and cover letters. had 3 interviews, and never a single call back.

the only work i've had is through my family and canvassing for political campaigns, both very temporary positions.

you really should look around. my story is not uncommon.

i'll even be happy to show you my resume via pm. it is a nice resume. it's not like i am unemployable, and it is not that i don't try. but life is rough and times are hard, so here's your fucking christmas card.

UncleBuck said:

a trap, eh?

people must clamor mightily for the opportunity to live at poverty level, by your logic.

how foolish it is to accept the only thing that will put food on the table while you look for new work or re-train.

BLITHERING FOOLS!

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Near double-digit unemployment may be fine as the new normal if you favor European-style Socialism.

I don't just say no; but fuck no!

Government programs will not get our economy out of its present funk.

The government getting out the way and reducing burdensome regulations and oppressive taxation will.

Clear the way for entrepreneurs to do what they do best.

UncleBuck said:

meanie.

i will tell you with a straight face that i have honestly looked for work at, below, and above my previous pay level for going on 1.5 years now. sent out hundreds of tailored resumes and cover letters. had 3 interviews, and never a single call back.

the only work i've had is through my family and canvassing for political campaigns, both very temporary positions.

you really should look around. my story is not uncommon.

i'll even be happy to show you my resume via pm. it is a nice resume. it's not like i am unemployable, and it is not that i don't try.

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I am sure you will find something soon. But I am equally sure you would have found something a long time ago had there been no government teat.

It's called tough love, Buck.

UncleBuck said:

but life is rough and times are hard, so here's your fucking christmas card.

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Your Christmas card is invalid. You're a Jew.

Johnnyorganic said:

I am sure you will find something soon. But I am equally sure you would have found something a long time ago had there been no government teat.

It's called tough love, Buck.

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not likely. desk jobs, i have come to realize, are for squares.

had there been no government teat on which to suckle, i would be even more malnourished and likely to suckle more money off other teats.

oh, and a smattering of those entrepreneurs you gush about so lovingly wouldn't have received about $300 a week of my money, or anyone else on the teat for that matter, further decreasing demand and weakening the economy.

surely you know this, unless you shun the opinion of 99.9% of all credible economists.

Johnnyorganic said:

Your Christmas card is invalid. You're a Jew.

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thanks for the gut laugh. well played, sir.

UncleBuck said:

not likely. desk jobs, i have come to realize, are for squares.

had there been no government teat on which to suckle, i would be even more malnourished and likely to suckle more money off other teats.

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Malnourished. Really? Are you really malnourished?

Or do you simply not have as much money in the bank as you feel you should?

ASIDE: I am not belittling your current position. Simply making a point.

I've seen the American version of poverty. It looks like wide-screen televisions, mobile phones, laptop computers; and not one, but two automobiles.

UncleBuck said:

oh, and a smattering of those entrepreneurs you gush about so lovingly wouldn't have received about $300 a week of my money, or anyone else on the teat for that matter, further decreasing demand and weakening the economy.

surely you know this, unless you shun the opinion of 99.9% of all credible economists.

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I will concede that the economic activity resulting from unemployment benefits goes directly into the economy. But it is nothing more than empty calories. Almost worthless in the larger scheme of things.

It seems a far better solution would be to unleash the power of the fundamental American desire to achieve; not to muzzle it, or to shame it as being greedy or selfish.

UncleBuck said:

thanks for the gut laugh. well played, sir.

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I figured you would appreciate it.

Hi Med, good thread---it warms my heart to see you guys still going at it, as I have not been online much in recent months.
Political opponents have always tended toward humorous stereotyping in order to simplify and disparage unpalatable political world views. 'Twas ever thus!


I am currently more impoverished than ever. I have been able to procure employment well below that to which I became accustomed to for the majority of my life. I am in the "home stretch" in collecting my pension and SS benefits. I have never, and will never, collect unemployment. I will continue to be self sufficient. Pride is a powerful propellant!!!!

Johnnyorganic said:

Malnourished. Really? Are you really malnourished?

Or do you simply not have as much money in the bank as you feel you should?

ASIDE: I am not belittling your current position. Simply making a point.

I've seen the American version of poverty. It looks like wide-screen televisions, mobile phones, laptop computers; and not one, but two automobiles.


I will concede that the economic activity resulting from unemployment benefits goes directly into the economy. But it is nothing more than empty calories. Almost worthless in the larger scheme of things.

It seems a far better solution would be to unleash the power of the fundamental American desire to achieve; not to muzzle it, or to shame it as being greedy or selfish.


I figured you would appreciate it.

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Couldn't have said it better.

Oh BTW UncleBuck, I know a place where you can get a Job no problem, and it will start at about 80K a year, all you have to be able to do is move some heavy stuff around occasionally, be prepared to be dirty and sometimes wet for 12 hours a day and work outside. The job is 1 week on and 1 week off, 12 hours a day. If you pass your pee test your hired, they take people without any experience and send them to school for a few weeks to learn the basics. Expect to see 40 below zero for weeks at a time, and then in the summer 100 above, you will probably need to move. And if that doesn't motivate you there are plenty of service jobs available, in fact there are so many jobs available there that most restaurants are only open 2 or 3 days out of the week because there is no one to work the job. LOTS of opportunities there. Its in the Continental US, so you can drive there, the state has a 1% unemployment rate and runs a surplus on their budget every year. This state also has its own bank. Taxes are very low. My parents live there, but I doubt they will take you in.

UncleBuck said:

are you kidding man? i love you and your well thought out responses. doc too.

i would chip in more but this whole making rent without government subsidizing my laziness is crippling me. simply CRIPPLING.

if it weren't for the government subsidizing my indolent, deadbeat lifestyle, i probably would have starved to death or gone homeless before i got on my own two feet again with my own business. yes, if it weren't for that measly, below poverty check so coveted by deadbeats like myself, i would be hogging money from the economy instead of injecting money back into it.

unemployment is not the trap, my friend, it is the cycle of poverty. there are very few deadbeats in this world, but a lot of people who don't have anything near the opportunity that someone like you or i have.

YOU KNOW THIS.

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Awe, thanks Buck! I feel the same way. I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but I respect you.