Union extortion now illegal in Michigan

Dr Kynes said:
when i worked in a vineyard tending cuttings and grafting rootstocks, i worked for the vineyard owner. when the "farm worker's union" came in to "organize" they tried to force me to work for their shitty union instead of the vineyard owner. result: the owner fired all his employees who joined the union, and those of us who were LOYAL stayed on. i worked for this vineyasrd for another 6 months or so, until the owner caved and accepted the shitty union. he doesnt have a vineyard any more. the union broke him, and that land is now part of an agricorp's holdings. nice job union. nice job.
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i think that owes more to the competency of the vineyard owner. i mean, he did hire you.

strike one.

Dr Kynes said:
really strong companies can simply tell unions to pound sand.

when i worked for a small farmer down south, i was a hired hand. when the union came in, i became an employee, and that farm went from a family run farm with a few full time hands to a "business" with seasonal migrant labour. nice job unions.
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nice try, but you would have been proud to mention if the union broke that family run farm. family probably sold it and moved to carmel to play golf in their retirement. all you did was illustrate the need for unions, because corporations don't mind forcing a race to the bottom in the name of profit, workers and labor be damned.

strike two.

Dr Kynes said:
when i worked in a factory, i had to join the teamsters to operate the loaders, the teamsters did NOTHING for me, i got the same pay same benefits and same working conditions as i did before i joined the union, but i also got docked for their cut of the action. i took home LESS, and eventually the company shed it's union workforce and switched to part time temp service shclubs. productivity dropped but profits went up. nice job unions.
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like i said above, you only illustrated the need for unions. corporations are happy to exploit cheap labor rather than more evenly share proceeds with the labor that made it possible.

strike three.

Dr Kynes said:
unions are crap. unions with the power to force their will on those of us who dont want their interference are just criminals with plenary indulgences.

i dont expect everyone to hate unions, but union boosters expect everybody to join with them or be cast out. unions are a cult, demanding complete acceptance of their doctrines or those who dissent are threatened with violence or excommunication. scabs at least have their dignity.
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it's funny to watch a bircher accuse others of cultism. i enjoy a nice LOL.
 
abandonconflict said:
Two dollars a day is a common wage paid by US corporations to third world workers. If the cost of keeping slaves in the US south in the 18th and 19th centuries was more than that (considering what would be worth 2 dollars in the money of the time) then yes, slave is the correct word to use.

Even a small amount of research will show that I am being very generous by saying two dollars a day. On that note, southern plantation owners were known to feed black slaves well since they wanted them to work so hard.
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it was more than that... you HAD to pay for their healthcare and such back then.
 
Guys, don't fall into the trap of comparing wages here to other places. Some places you can live off 2 bucks a day better than you can here on 200 bucks a day. Not many places, and admittedly, some people who work for non-living wages make it by extended families living together and pooling resources. We used to have to do that here. My dad grew up during the depression, living with 13 people in a 3 bedroom house. He thought that was just the way it was and FDR was Godlike. Those fireside chats went a long way to convincing people he was the answer.
 
ginwilly said:
Guys, don't fall into the trap of comparing wages here to other places. Some places you can live off 2 bucks a day better than you can here on 200 bucks a day. Not many places, and admittedly, some people who work for non-living wages make it by extended families living together and pooling resources. We used to have to do that here. My dad grew up during the depression, living with 13 people in a 3 bedroom house. He thought that was just the way it was and FDR was Godlike. Those fireside chats went a long way to convincing people he was the answer.
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It is most certainly not a trap. Capitalists will continue to send jobs overseas as long as wages are lower in 3rd world countries and that affects jobs here. When our industries can not compete because our workers demand high pay, the answer seems obvious, pay them less and loot their pensions. NO, pay the 3rd world people more and raise their standard of living.
 
abandonconflict said:
It is most certainly not a trap. Capitalists will continue to send jobs overseas as long as wages are lower in 3rd world countries and that affects jobs here. When our industries can not compete because our workers demand high pay, the answer seems obvious, pay them less and loot their pensions. NO, pay the 3rd world people more and raise their standard of living.
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point is. Comparing wages dollar for dollar doesn't count for cost of living. If 20k a year bought me a huge house and a live in maid I would not consider myself earning poverty level wages. This is true when comparing manhattan to the ozarks, surely you can see how much more this would relate when comparing to Ubekastan.

All I'm saying is if you think it's more just and honorable to pay Americans ten bucks an hour than to pay some third world er two bucks a day, we have to know what that two bucks day pays for. It may be twice as much as our ten bucks an hour, it may be a tenth as much. Without knowing though, your outrage is embedded in ignorance.
 
ginwilly said:
point is. Comparing wages dollar for dollar doesn't count for cost of living. If 20k a year bought me a huge house and a live in maid I would not consider myself earning poverty level wages. This is true when comparing manhattan to the ozarks, surely you can see how much more this would relate when comparing to Ubekastan.

All I'm saying is if you think it's more just and honorable to pay Americans ten bucks an hour than to pay some third world er two bucks a day, we have to know what that two bucks day pays for. It may be twice as much as our ten bucks an hour, it may be a tenth as much. Without knowing though, your outrage is embedded in ignorance.
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Indeed the cost of living is lower there, and also, if wages rose, cost of living would too, just like if a muscle that had been atrophied suddenly were forced to exert would suddenly consume more oxygen and divert higher volumes of blood.
 
abandonconflict said:
Indeed the cost of living is lower there, and also, if wages rose, cost of living would too, just like if a muscle that had been atrophied suddenly were forced to exert would suddenly consume more oxygen and divert higher volumes of blood.
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And if China didn't manipulate their currency the dollar would have even less buying power. Blame China for wages being so low based on the dollar. Waaaay too many factors to just assume those people are miserable slaves earning only enough to eat mud because of greedy corporations. Unless its just your default position to blame all of the world's problems on capitalism, in that case, carry on
 
ginwilly said:
And if China didn't manipulate their currency the dollar would have even less buying power. Blame China for wages being so low based on the dollar. Waaaay too many factors to just assume those people are miserable slaves earning only enough to eat mud because of greedy corporations. Unless its just your default position to blame all of the world's problems on capitalism, in that case, carry on
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So it is China to blame for the ills of capitalism? Are you arguing that if China weren't manipulating currency, that wage slaves would be paid more since the meager wage they receive would have more purchasing power? I'm not really arguing according to the value of the dollar. That is quite the strawboy you have erected but even so, it is weak and I can easily destroy it while pointing out how it has very little to do with my point. I think they would just be paid even less if the dollar had greater purchasing power, whether it were a result of lower cost of living or greater demand for the dollar.

The capitalist sends jobs to third world countries because Americans demand a higher wage. This is directly proportionate to the higher standard of living in America. Since third world labor is so cheap, they can produce goods cheaper. The obvious solution would be to pay the American less and loot their pensions in order to compete, so that CEOs can maintain ridiculously high standard of living (fuck the little guy). The best solution however, is to pay third world workers more. Fuck the bourgeois motherfuckers.
 
I'm having trouble deciphering what you are talking about. Of course wages would be lower if the dollar had more buying power. Not just in China, but here too. I'm missing your point on why this is good or bad.

35% corporate taxes compared to as small as none has way more to do with moving jobs overseas than wages.

The point I was trying to get across is there is way more to it than just saying we are evil because we don't pay people in Mongolia as much as we do here. Some of the reasons are nefarious, some are not, sometimes it just makes good business sense. How many jobs in America would be lost if iPads cost 1500 bucks? Could Apple even compete?

Growing up in Detroit I got to witness protectionism and nationalism at it's core concerning the autos. It didn't work. People used to be willing to pay more for an inferior product, but seeing all of the imports and Apple product it seems we've learned our lessons. Or most of us have I should say, I'll admit to still never buying a foreign car. It's been beat into me and I doubt I ever will. It's my small part I play in preserving good jobs, but I understand if we all did this it would cause another slip in our quality.
 
Dr Kynes said:
i'd rather make my own choices than have the lowest common denominator decide how i live my life.

you wouldnt understand that. you are a user, not a productive worker.
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THis statement presume that one CAN "make my own choice" in a situation where there is an individual up against a corporation or large business. Without any protection you get the right to work as the business demands or not work at all. That isn't much of a choice for most people. For many workers, decades of strife and pain resulted in the opportunity to have a pleasant life while working for an otherwise hostile employer. Most of those who hate unions havn't seen what it took to get them their chance even if they themselves never need to join the union. These folks think that their work conditions and paychecks simply floated down from the sky one day, or worse, that employers care about them enough to offer them the best health care plan and two weeks vacation and a pension and safe working conditions. The harsh reality is that few of these things would be so easily gotten had it not been for unions and government.
 
Weakened unions means that those unions are no longer able to employ lobbyests that see to it that workers get a decent break in government. Business sees no such crippling of it's ability to represent itself in washington. With the citizens united decision, it is essential that unions put up some sort of defense against the onslaught of business and state by state unions are being shorn of that ability.


What do you suppose will be the result?
 
ginwilly said:
I'm having trouble deciphering what you are talking about.
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Capitalists will continue to send jobs overseas as long as wages are lower in 3rd world countries and that affects jobs here. When our industries can not compete because our workers demand high pay, the answer seems obvious, pay them less and loot their pensions. NO, pay the 3rd world people more and raise their standard of living.
 
abandonconflict said:
Capitalists will continue to send jobs overseas as long as wages are lower in 3rd world countries and that affects jobs here. When our industries can not compete because our workers demand high pay, the answer seems obvious, pay them less and loot their pensions. NO, pay the 3rd world people more and raise their standard of living.
Click to expand...



But.. but... but... that might mean that we will have to pay more for our sports shoes and iphones.
 
abandonconflict said:
So owning slaves in the US was more expensive than employing wage slaves in 3rd world serfdoms is.
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when i borrowed your slave to help out.. i paid him, paid you, paid his hospital bills and and fed him with my food.

nowadays.. he has to find his own food, own healthcare, and i pay him a little.


why say 3rd world though? we have wage slaves here with our inflation and stagnation rates
 
I think in this particular state, going right to work was vindictive. It may end up better for the state in the long run but Snyder was saying as recently as a few months ago that he wasn't going to do this. Then unions spent millions getting a constitutional amendment on the ballot that would have crippled the local legislators ability to deal with overblown public unions. (see Detroit) And it feels like Snyder said "well screw you then".

In MI, where this measure failed miserably (only 60% union members actually voted for it) is also a good example of the use of union dues. 40% of the employees had money forcibly removed from their pockets to pay for a cause they voted against. This change in status will give those employees the option of keeping their money instead.

It's still a bit dirty how it all went down.
 
tomcatjones said:
when i borrowed your slave to help out.. i paid him, paid you, paid his hospital bills and and fed him with my food.

nowadays.. he has to find his own food, own healthcare, and i pay him a little.


why say 3rd world though? we have wage slaves here with our inflation and stagnation rates
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and with right to work laws, we are going to have a whole lot more wage slaves soon enough
 
abandonconflict said:
and with right to work laws, we are going to have a whole lot more wage slaves soon enough
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I'm expecting 20 hr work days in boiler rooms over 100 degrees with no holidays, vacation or sick time to start by the first of the year. I wonder if we'll still get Sundays off.
 
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