Vero vs Citizen

caretak3r

caretak3r

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
both are great chips and great values

send me a vero 22 and ill test it next to a citi

heres my test of vero29 gen 7 vs citi gen 5

View attachment 3906532

id have to guess based on the relative performance of V22C vs the V29 veros ive tested and relative gen 6 to gen 5 citi performance, that the vero 22 would hang well with the 1818 up to 50W then drop off. it doesnt have the V29 performance as you approach 100W, prob package size limited on dissipation.

just a guess
Click to expand...
You can pretty much assume that the V22C will NOT out perform the Vero29C, so by inference, this chart helps quite alot when contemplating what real world performance might look like driving the v22c < 50W (as opposed to what the vero XLS calculator shows)
 
MeGaKiLlErMaN

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
both are great chips and great values

send me a vero 22 and ill test it next to a citi

heres my test of vero29 gen 7 vs citi gen 5

View attachment 3906532

id have to guess based on the relative performance of V22C vs the V29 veros ive tested and relative gen 6 to gen 5 citi performance, that the vero 22 would hang well with the 1818 up to 50W then drop off. it doesnt have the V29 performance as you approach 100W, prob package size limited on dissipation.

just a guess
Click to expand...

What's the temp the lights were durring this test? And the length of time to get up to the temp?
 
CobKits

CobKits

Well-Known Member
all were tested in similar patterns from low current up to high current over the same period on a big ass heat sink with a fan, roughly 3-4 minutes maybe to take 20 measurements

the data is only relatively useful in comparison to other cobs on the same test.
 
SaltyNuts

SaltyNuts

Well-Known Member
Take with a huge grain of salt because so far this is just theory but I've been beating the various datasheets to death online and comparing different makes and models on youtube and on paper for over two years. So far the price to gains ratio didn't make sense with LED, despite the cool factor. ChilLed looks awesome but the cost is still high. The Quantum boards look promising but cost is still a factor there too. But the gen 7 Vero's look great on paper and the price is right in the zone. According to the V22 datasheet the $14 52V model looks like a winner if you want about 35W - 55W from the chip. That's easy to pair with a cheaper passive heat-sink to run fairly cool and you give up only a little efficiency compared to the 68V V29C gen 7. Running 700 to 1050 mA the efficiency is about 185 to 165 lm/W.

So it's looking fairly affordable and reasonable to build a 300W-class DIY that can rival a CMH315, for about $300. Less than retail is what DIY should cost! So next time I'm thinking of an equipment upgrade I could do this instead of a CMH315 or 400W - 600W HPS and feel like the money is not extravagant. I'd actually be saving up-front, not to mention the yearly $100 savings from escaping bulb replacement. I really do want to get into an LED because of the other benefits like efficient dimming and instant on/off with no cost, and the thermal rewards.

So here's a mockup of a fixture you could dim up or down to veg and flower with good efficiency:

6ea - V22 @ $14ea = $84 https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/bridgelux/BXRE-30E6500-C-73/976-1451-ND/6152461
6ea - 65W heatsinks = $80 https://northerngrowlights.com/collections/all/products/sst120-passive-heatsink-kit
1 hlg-320H-C1050B = $100 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mean-Well/HLG-320H-C1050B/?qs=/ha2pyFaduiCyBUOaCslb26PB1QPL5KekCurtS8tEQIT0FFikBibCg==
plus misc parts to build, total about $300
~40,000 lumens at 220W (equals brightness of 400W HPS)
~55,000 lumens at 320W (far surpasses CMH 315 33,000 lumens)

Two of these DIY fixtures should effectively output near the range of a 1000W HPS, for close to the MSRP of a Gavita DE 1000W unit.

I'd go with the 35K V22 if they were in stock (best efficacy), and add some XP-E2 660nm reds for shits and giggles :D
 
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CobKits

CobKits

Well-Known Member
SaltyNuts said:
So it's looking fairly affordable and reasonable to build a 300W-class DIY that can rival a CMH315, for about $300.
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pretty much any current cob can do this. even a 300W cree diy build is under $300, more like $200 to match a cmh (with better GPW and zero ongoing bulb costs) with the regualrly priced chips like vero/citi/luminus

while its slow to be adopted cob has "been there" for a while vs cmh and hps... and is only gaining advantage as time rolls on
 
SaltyNuts

SaltyNuts

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
pretty much any current cob can do this. even a 300W cree diy build is under $300, more like $200 to match a cmh (with better GPW and zero ongoing bulb costs) with the regualrly priced chips like vero/citi/luminus
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I'm not coming on here trying to be contrary. Quite the opposite. But that claim doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm just not getting it. But the CXB3590 is almost three times the cost of the V22.
 
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DankaDank

DankaDank

Well-Known Member
KonopCh said:
Vero vs. Citizen is thread...

Gen 7 Vero wins in (all) currents as can I see. They are also cheaper, and only V22 C (which is 14 bucks) is over 160 lm/W at 1050 mA. Comparing with 1212 and more expensive 1818 gen 6 (21 bucks). At the same temperatures, CRI and spectrum (3000K, 3500K, 80 CRI)!! Even if you drive 2x 1212 at 700 mA, they are more expensive than Vero V22 C.

So I think this is best COB for your money in this class (for 200-300W).
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I brought up the V22C awhile ago on the basis of how underrated they are. If the Bridgelux tool is correct, then they are hands down the best cost/performance chip on the market.
 
SaltyNuts

SaltyNuts

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
chip cost is maybe a 1/3-1/2 of the cost considering drivers and heatsinks and holders etc.
View attachment 3922620
Click to expand...
I appreciate this kind of data, but frankly I would put more stock in the corporate datasheets. But your graph still bolsters the idea that the V22-C performs competitively with chips costing more. And 1/3 to 1/2 the cost is very significant, it could be the difference between a $300 DIY project or one costing $450. Based on what I read it seems the 52v V22-C hits the price/performance sweet spot for running in the 30W-50W range. Price is close to that for the citizen 1212, but 35W performance roughly parallels the V29-C 55W performance. Anyone using the 2700K or 3000K? Or the 6500K?
 
CobKits

CobKits

Well-Known Member
DankaDank said:
I brought up the V22C awhile ago on the basis of how underrated they are. If the Bridgelux tool is correct, then they are hands down the best cost/performance chip on the market.
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theyre solid. i did not expect that poor low current data and will run the other sample i have

irs hard to say what is the best cost/performance when looking at just chip costs

for example look at the $17 luminus vs the $14 vero, on a chip cost level thats 20% but if you do up a build with heatsinks drivers etc at the typical $1/watt level, its gonna be 5% more at most for the chips that are going to produce 5% more par day in, day out.

is 5% more yield 6 crops a year worth $12 in chips....i think so
 
SaltyNuts

SaltyNuts

Well-Known Member
CobKits said:
theyre solid. i did not expect that poor low current data and will run the other sample i have

irs hard to say what is the best cost/performance when looking at just chip costs

for example look at the $17 luminus vs the $14 vero, on a chip cost level thats 20% but if you do up a build with heatsinks drivers etc at the typical $1/watt level, its gonna be 5% more at most for the chips that are going to produce 5% more par day in, day out.

is 5% more yield 6 crops a year worth $12 in chips....i think so
Click to expand...
For sure.
 
SaltyNuts

SaltyNuts

Well-Known Member
I just don't see any other datasheets claiming such high lm/W ratios at such a low price as the V22-C. I know, I know, lumens, lumens, datasheets, crap, crap, but still, it's a general reference point.

btw I like the spectral distribution chart for the CXM-27 3000K 97 CRI, big peak from 600nm- 650nm and it still has a nice bump at 450nm... I'm sure lm/W would be low, but that PPF would stoke
 
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