tip top toker
Well-Known Member
Question for you fella. is a burn a problem?
Water Causing Burns on Plant Leaves, a Myth?
- Thread starter jack ripa
- Start date
Brick Top
New Member
Like I said to you in one of my PMs, not all plants, bushes and trees are the same.
"But on leaves with small wax hairs," say like the trichomes on cannabis plants, "the hairs," like trichomes on cannabis plants, "were able to hold water droplets above the leaf surface, creating a magnifying-glass effect that gave the leaves a noticeable sunburn."
Water Drops Magnify Sunlight and Burn Leaves
LiveScience Staff
Date: 10 January 2010 Time: 02:00 PM ET
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CREDIT: stock.xchng Many gardeners swear you should not water in the midday because water droplets on plants can magnify the sun's rays and burn leaves. But the idea has never been rigorously tested, until now.
"This is far from a trivial question," said biophysicist Gabor Horvath at Eotvos University in Budapest, Hungary. "The prevailing opinion is that forest fires can be sparked by intense sunlight focused by water drops on dried-out vegetation."
Horvath and colleagues used both experiments and computer modeling to figure out the physics that goes on. The results varied depending on the type of leaf.
On smooth surfaces, such as a healthy maple leaf, no leaf burn occurred.
But on leaves with small wax hairs, such as those of the floating fern, the hairs were able to hold water droplets above the leaf surface, creating a magnifying-glass effect that gave the leaves a noticeable sunburn — though no open flames resulted.
Could the same effect on a dry leaf start a forest fire?
"If the focal region of drops falls exactly on the dry plant surface intensely focused sunlight could theoretically start a fire," Horvath said. "However, the likelihood is reduced as the water drops should evaporate before this, so these claims should be treated with a grain of salt."
However, hairy human skin might suffer the same effect, enhancing sunburn, the researchers speculate.
"In sunshine water drops residing on smooth hairless plant leaves are unlikely to damage the leaf tissue," Horvath and colleagues conclude. "However water drops held by plant hairs can indeed cause sunburn and the same phenomenon can occur when water droplets are held above human skin by body hair."
The findings are detailed in the journal New Phytologist.
http://www.livescience.com/6017-water-drops-magnify-sunlight-burn-leaves.html
ChubbySoap
Well-Known Member
see what you've done!?
You have awakened a wrath older than time itself!
I hope you're happy!
*runs and hides*
You have awakened a wrath older than time itself!
I hope you're happy!
*runs and hides*
Brick Top
New Member
I just had to post he information. The thing is about people with no actual knowledge in horticulture is they will Google and find something that fits their beliefs and believe that they provided the singular answer to a question. But as I told jack ripa in a PM, in more than one actually, that not all plants and bushes and trees are the same.
His information is accurate IF someone is talking about plants or bushes or trees that do not have trichomes, or wax-like hairs on them like cannabis plants do. But cannabis plants do have trichomes and they react different than smooth leaves when it comes to water droplets.
He told me in a PM that when he is proven wrong he is very humble. So now I am awaiting his response where, if he was honest about himself, he will be eating a very healthy portion of humble pie.
Possibly he may care to do the same here in the thread since he was misleading people, spreading inaccurate information and has now clearly been proven to be incorrect.
tip top toker
Well-Known Member
The very article he chose to dismiss made that exact point between different types of leaves having a different experience. Some people just read what they want to read, as you say.
ChubbySoap
Well-Known Member
no disrespect was intended....
i very much enjoy when the local Krakens are awakened....awe inspiring and well respected beasts they are too.
even when i get trampled underfoot for my foolishness...i learn something every time lolz
i very much enjoy when the local Krakens are awakened....awe inspiring and well respected beasts they are too.
even when i get trampled underfoot for my foolishness...i learn something every time lolz
Brick Top
New Member
People who lack education in a certain field, if cornered, will attempt to dismiss all inconvenient facts out of sheer desperation to attempt to appear as if they know more than they do. They hope others do not realize that facts are facts so possibly they can still appear as if they know what they are talking about, but the facts that are not convenient cannot simply be ignored. They remain facts even though they prove someone wrong when that person desperately does not want to be proven wrong because they have taken such a firm stance on some issue.
The more concrete of a stance they take the more desperate they will be to attempt to spin and blow smoke and misrepresent what proves them to be incorrect into appearing to not prove them to be wrong. They always fail in their attempts. People always see through it, the person never gets away with it, but most of those people would eat a yard of their own shit before admitting they were wrong.
tip top toker
Well-Known Member
I'm still waiting for his definition of problems and that of burn. Because unless burning a leaf isn't in some way a problem, he's already admited that it happens, and then instantly contradicted himself to maintain his position.
Seems slightly silly and contradictory to me
Seems slightly silly and contradictory to me
Brick Top
New Member
In a PM he said that he proved me wrong and included links to information about plants where what he repeatedly claimed to me to be true, that water droplets cannot burn plants, but as what has been posted has proved there is a difference if a leaf is smooth or if it has hairs/trichomes, and then it can and will burn.I'm still waiting for his definition of problems and that of burn. Because unless burning a leaf isn't in some way a problem, he's already admited that it happens, and then instantly contradicted himself to maintain his position.
Seems slightly silly and contradictory to me
[/B]
Now I did agree with him that the odds of it happening to CFL growers are slim to none, but he said in PMs that even under HID lighting or the sun burning from water droplets on leaves could not occur.
ChubbySoap
Well-Known Member
even said farmers prefer to water in the late afternoon...instead of the blistering heat of the noon day sun
why do they wait until the sun is at a lower angle and when it's already cooling off anyways for?
let's temporarily ignore the ludicrous claim of evaporating water not being able to carry away more heat than a drop of water just sitting there in an even cooler environment...
yes, even though it totally goes against all known forms of respected thermodynamics
why do they wait until the sun is at a lower angle and when it's already cooling off anyways for?
let's temporarily ignore the ludicrous claim of evaporating water not being able to carry away more heat than a drop of water just sitting there in an even cooler environment...
yes, even though it totally goes against all known forms of respected thermodynamics
Farmers prefer to do so to prevent evaporation and give cooling when the plants need it most. When they have used the moisture in their root zone between the time moisture wicks out and eventually leeches back to the needed area.
You guys are funny. That article does not reference any studies whatsoever. Brick top has been calling me out in PM and I honestly thought someone would have some sort of proof of this happening with MJ but as it turns out this is like so many MJ ideas, a well entrenched myth that will persist regardless of my attempts to clarify.
I said that it probably can occur under extreme circumstances, ie. hard water, intense reflected sun, possibly on a super small scale just under normal conditions. To think for a second that this is a worry in our gardens or a threat to our plants is the myth.
It's funny to see you guys clamor though.
You guys are funny. That article does not reference any studies whatsoever. Brick top has been calling me out in PM and I honestly thought someone would have some sort of proof of this happening with MJ but as it turns out this is like so many MJ ideas, a well entrenched myth that will persist regardless of my attempts to clarify.
I said that it probably can occur under extreme circumstances, ie. hard water, intense reflected sun, possibly on a super small scale just under normal conditions. To think for a second that this is a worry in our gardens or a threat to our plants is the myth.
It's funny to see you guys clamor though.
tip top toker
Well-Known Member
So it can occur but if i were to tell someone it can occur, this is totally false? I'm confused. I'm just repeating what you've said there.
Brick Top
New Member
Smokescreen, spin, avoidance technique. Farm crops are not cannabis. You might as well tell us about how and when the grounds crew at Wrigley Field waters the grass.
Face the facts dude, you have been totally inaccurate when the plant in question is a cannabis plant due to having trichomes and not being some farm crop.
Ok, so then show me this occurring with cannabis then. You haven't shown a shred of credible information. I can find three scientists who believe in UFOs but I can't seem any studies to show that their opinions are correct or factual. You accuse me of cherry picking but you are doing the same. In fact my link if far more credible than yours. I am compiling a list of studies. Keep up to date and Brick, buddy, calm down. You are taking this way too personally. It wreaks of fear, not knowledge. Your belittling doesn't prove anything.
Let's get to the bottom of this.
My claim: weed growers don't need to worry about water burn. My personal 25 years of growing expereince at all levels has shown this to be true. Show me your water burns caused by clean water under normal conditions if you can. Show me anyone who has shown definitively that this is a problem.
Let's get to the bottom of this.
My claim: weed growers don't need to worry about water burn. My personal 25 years of growing expereince at all levels has shown this to be true. Show me your water burns caused by clean water under normal conditions if you can. Show me anyone who has shown definitively that this is a problem.
Waterspots are not burns. Hard elements can spot and possibly burn. Your water likely has an excess of ca or cl in it.
For a guy with a horticultural degree you show a real lack of understanding of plants. MJ is not the only plant with trichomes. Many farm crops, indeed many many plants have trichomes.
As soon as you present them I will do so.
ChubbySoap
Well-Known Member
right...see? right there....you just said it again....
whatever i could show you, you would claim to be attributed to the solution outside the cells increasing in salt concentration (as the water evaporates), osmotically drawing water from the leaf cells, causing injury to the cells. Even if there is an entire squad of solemn reputable scientists at my back.
you would be indeed correct that your idea happens as well...cause it does...but to say water drops never doing it is plain silly.
btw...what light source are we talking about currently?...you keep hopping around...each have different chances of producing said effects
After all, rain doesn't wait for night-time to fall, and you don't recall seeing leaf injury from raindrops unless there was hail associated with the rain, right?
Have you ever actually looked? happens all the time *points out window* especially right after the rare midday downpour and instant high noon sun afterward...
EDIT:
oh wait...right...it doesn't rain ultra pure water...you win again
lmfao
whatever i could show you, you would claim to be attributed to the solution outside the cells increasing in salt concentration (as the water evaporates), osmotically drawing water from the leaf cells, causing injury to the cells. Even if there is an entire squad of solemn reputable scientists at my back.
you would be indeed correct that your idea happens as well...cause it does...but to say water drops never doing it is plain silly.
btw...what light source are we talking about currently?...you keep hopping around...each have different chances of producing said effects
After all, rain doesn't wait for night-time to fall, and you don't recall seeing leaf injury from raindrops unless there was hail associated with the rain, right?
Have you ever actually looked? happens all the time *points out window* especially right after the rare midday downpour and instant high noon sun afterward...
EDIT:
oh wait...right...it doesn't rain ultra pure water...you win again
lmfao
Brick Top
New Member
Originally Posted by Brick Top
Smokescreen, spin, avoidance technique. Farm crops are not cannabis. You might as well tell us about how and when the grounds crew at Wrigley Field waters the grass.
I really dislike it when someone resorts to dishonesty. I said enough times in threads and in PMs to you that I have four family members with degrees in horticulture and that with them we own a nursery that covers roughly 17 acres of land. I have never once claimed to have a degree in horticulture myself.
And I never said that there were no farm crops that do not have trichomes. But it is not like the degree or burn that will occur on them is more damaging than letting them go without water or that they should be protected from rain. Water droplets that cause burn are not like acid that destroy plants or crops, but they will damage them at least to a minor degree. Like how I said in some cases it will cause a minor bleaching and nothing more.
Again you are attempting to rely on spin and to create a smokescreen and use avoidance techniques. The topic is water droplets causing burn on cannabis plants. The information I posted clearly stated that on smooth leaved plants it will not happen but on plants with wax-like hairs, which the resin coated trichomes virtually are, it can and it will cause burning under the right conditions.
You need to accept that you were wrong, accept and admit that you gave out inaccurate misleading information, and learn from this experience and move on as a more knowledgeable grower than you were before this exchange.
Sure you made yourself look foolish in front of everyone, but at least you learned something, so it was not all bad for you.
Haha, ok, you are really bent on me being wrong so here.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/7823032/Sunburnt-plants-myth-is-debunked.html
This article, citing studies, finds that it is mostly a myth but that sometimes plants with hairs can as you say bleach slightly. Thing is, I have seen countless threads where people attribute burning to water or misting and the fact is, that is just really not likely to be the case. As stated in the article, the hairs also tend to shed water. So look, maybe we all learned something today. I can admit that the possibility exists but I would also say that it's a really overblown issue that does not require the amount of attention and worry that most growers seem to be giving it. If you have any air moving leaves, I still assert, you have no worries of burning your plants due to misting.
So, ok, this is why I started the thread. All angst aside from certain high post count members, I will always still advise people to look elsewhere for the issue. I will continue to mist my plants when I feel the need, not when the light is right. A young seedling drowning in a large drop of water will slow it's growth and maybe (thought probably not at mid day) cause bleaching. I don't suggest anyone incessantly spray and keep their environment moist.
So in summary, I may be wrong in the exact details but I feel I am still correct in my belief that it is not a major concern.
So brick, if I feel like giving my advice to newbs with CFLs, I would appreciate you to lay off me and allow me to share my experience with out a barrage of vitriolic PMs. Thanks and good bye.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/7823032/Sunburnt-plants-myth-is-debunked.html
This article, citing studies, finds that it is mostly a myth but that sometimes plants with hairs can as you say bleach slightly. Thing is, I have seen countless threads where people attribute burning to water or misting and the fact is, that is just really not likely to be the case. As stated in the article, the hairs also tend to shed water. So look, maybe we all learned something today. I can admit that the possibility exists but I would also say that it's a really overblown issue that does not require the amount of attention and worry that most growers seem to be giving it. If you have any air moving leaves, I still assert, you have no worries of burning your plants due to misting.
So, ok, this is why I started the thread. All angst aside from certain high post count members, I will always still advise people to look elsewhere for the issue. I will continue to mist my plants when I feel the need, not when the light is right. A young seedling drowning in a large drop of water will slow it's growth and maybe (thought probably not at mid day) cause bleaching. I don't suggest anyone incessantly spray and keep their environment moist.
So in summary, I may be wrong in the exact details but I feel I am still correct in my belief that it is not a major concern.
So brick, if I feel like giving my advice to newbs with CFLs, I would appreciate you to lay off me and allow me to share my experience with out a barrage of vitriolic PMs. Thanks and good bye.