What causes the flowering stage to happen?

freejoy

New Member
Hi
This is my first post here. I've been reading the forum for a while but i have a question that i haven't found an answer to...

I've been looking into buying my first grow light and I noticed one can get a "full spectrum" light or buy two, a blue and a red, one for flowering and one for vegetation. It seems one can put a plant into the flowering stage basically anytime by changing the lighting and reducing the light time. But if one has a full spectrum that grows the plant "full term" can one still put it into the flowering stage or would it grow more like it was grown outdoors? It seems one could only cause it to flower by reducing only the light timing.

What causes the plant to start flowering? The light timing or the red light or both?

Thanks
 
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reza92

Well-Known Member
a) why is this in the outdoor thread, the indoor or general growing thread would be more appropriate

b) what causes the plant to flower depends on if the plant is a photoperiod or auto flowering plant.

simply an auto will flower when it is mature and ready to do so even if the plant is running under 24hr of light the plant will still flower when its mature

a photoperiod plant will flower when the amount of light it receives in a day is less than or equal to 12 hrs.

the spectrum or colour of the light isn't what causes the plant to flower. outside in the real world when the days are longer there is more light from the blue spectrum and when the days are shorter there is more light from the red spectrum and has to do with the angle that the sun hits our atmosphere at. inside many growers will try to match their light spectrum to what nature would naturally provide outside (more blue in veg more red in flower) although this isn't necessary, there are many growers who only veg under hps lights which mainly throw off light in the red spectrum and im sure there has been a grower who has flowered under nothing but a mh before, while not optimal it will work.

im sure someone with more knowledge on lights and light spectrum's will be able to outline the pros amd cons of using each spectrum in any stage.
 

mikeykrinshaw12

Well-Known Member
a) why is this in the outdoor thread, the indoor or general growing thread would be more appropriate

b) what causes the plant to flower depends on if the plant is a photoperiod or auto flowering plant.

simply an auto will flower when it is mature and ready to do so even if the plant is running under 24hr of light the plant will still flower when its mature

a photoperiod plant will flower when the amount of light it receives in a day is less than or equal to 12 hrs.

the spectrum or colour of the light isn't what causes the plant to flower. outside in the real world when the days are longer there is more light from the blue spectrum and when the days are shorter there is more light from the red spectrum and has to do with the angle that the sun hits our atmosphere at. inside many growers will try to match their light spectrum to what nature would naturally provide outside (more blue in veg more red in flower) although this isn't necessary, there are many growers who only veg under hps lights which mainly throw off light in the red spectrum and im sure there has been a grower who has flowered under nothing but a mh before, while not optimal it will work.

im sure someone with more knowledge on lights and light spectrum's will be able to outline the pros amd cons of using each spectrum in any stage.
Wrong.

the circadian rhythm is what causes plants to flower.

It is a genetically stored hormonal reaction that the pigments in the tissue of the plants releases when a concentration of the R-FR spectrums Flare out within a cycle that indicates to the plant its growing season is coming to a close.

Cryptochromes- and Phytochromes react directly to both the red and blue spectrum's of light independently.

The rhuderalis strains you are referring to that flower under 24 hrs of light are indigenous to tropical equitorial zones that do not adhere to the same climate and lighting conditions as the strains that developed in the southern and northern hemispheres. These plants actually do not have phytochromes, which is why they flower automatically.
It also is not so regulated by 12/12 as everyone would say. But as a general rule of thumb- it works. Full spectrum bulbs contain a dense enough amount of the F-FR spectrum to induce flowering, HPS has much more FR density which helps the plant regulate its hormonal balance with a focus on fruit production- so yes you were correct about the "light angles changing" what is actually changing is the part of our atmosphere that the radiation enters from blocks less FR spectrum, and its increased density triggers a hormonal reaction in the plant to begin flowering.
The natural light schedule decrease signals colder weather and uninhabitable conditions (also measured by the same pigments) which causes the plant to put all of its energy into reproductive processes before the days are too short and cold to be inhabitable.

That link discusses mostly Auxins- and unless you actually understand that Auxin is many hormones that do different things reacting to environmental stimulus, its pretty much useless in actually understanding what causes flowering.

Never try to chemically induce flowering in a plant that you want to see a smokable harvest from.

We have the exact same pigments in our skin that do the exact same things- reacts to light change and signals a hormonal response in our bodies.

so- Circadian rhythm is what actually causes flowering to start and regulates its progress.

Marijuana is deciduous- The primary difference between indica and sativa is the zones they originated in and became indigenous to. One (sativa- came from the shrub/tree zone) the other (indica the herb zone).

When lighting changes- back to signalling the plants hormones that a growth season is present or coming- it will reveg.
 

mikeykrinshaw12

Well-Known Member
So, are cannabis plants annuals, perennials or biennials...? What kills them in nature, frost?
in nature- by the very cycle of the plant- exhaustion. << that is very dependent on Auxins and how the plant transfers, stores, and uses its energy>> according to the plants natural cycles it would put ALL energy into flowering/reproducing (males and females alike). However, indica and sativa are VERY different in regards to this, Sativa is similar to perennials in its ability to slow its growth, drop its leaves and flowers, and rely on long stored Auxins in the base cambrium to release as soon as the blue/yellow spectrums increase in density and duration.

only hard frosts that last more than 24 hrs would actually kill begin killing the plants- or like snow for example.

botanists argue about what it is all the time- Cannabis can be all of the above depending on where it is and how it is treated- including evergreen. Because cannabis is so adaptable, and it's genetics so amiable to acclimatizing quickly to different zones- it regulates its own circadian rhythm based on environmental factors to provide for its propagation- the genomes for this are built in.
 

freejoy

New Member
a) why is this in the outdoor thread, the indoor or general growing thread would be more appropriate

b) what causes the plant to flower depends on if the plant is a photoperiod or auto flowering plant.

simply an auto will flower when it is mature and ready to do so even if the plant is running under 24hr of light the plant will still flower when its mature

a photoperiod plant will flower when the amount of light it receives in a day is less than or equal to 12 hrs.

the spectrum or colour of the light isn't what causes the plant to flower. outside in the real world when the days are longer there is more light from the blue spectrum and when the days are shorter there is more light from the red spectrum and has to do with the angle that the sun hits our atmosphere at. inside many growers will try to match their light spectrum to what nature would naturally provide outside (more blue in veg more red in flower) although this isn't necessary, there are many growers who only veg under hps lights which mainly throw off light in the red spectrum and im sure there has been a grower who has flowered under nothing but a mh before, while not optimal it will work.

im sure someone with more knowledge on lights and light spectrum's will be able to outline the pros amd cons of using each spectrum in any stage.
I thought I did post it in the indoor section. I'm using a cell phone and sometimes I push the wronge links. Oh well. Thanks
 

mikeykrinshaw12

Well-Known Member
I thought i did post this in the "indoor"

I thought I did post it in the indoor section. I'm using a cell phone and sometimes I push the wronge links. Oh well. Thanks
Your answer is typically more well understood by veteran outdoor growers- that grow much more than just pot ;)
 

gilbsy123

Well-Known Member
in nature- by the very cycle of the plant- exhaustion. << that is very dependent on Auxins and how the plant transfers, stores, and uses its energy>> according to the plants natural cycles it would put ALL energy into flowering/reproducing (males and females alike). However, indica and sativa are VERY different in regards to this, Sativa is similar to perennials in its ability to slow its growth, drop its leaves and flowers, and rely on long stored Auxins in the base cambrium to release as soon as the blue/yellow spectrums increase in density and duration.

only hard frosts that last more than 24 hrs would actually kill begin killing the plants- or like snow for example.

botanists argue about what it is all the time- Cannabis can be all of the above depending on where it is and how it is treated- including evergreen. Because cannabis is so adaptable, and it's genetics so amiable to acclimatizing quickly to different zones- it regulates its own circadian rhythm based on environmental factors to provide for its propagation- the genomes for this are built in.
Are you a botanist? That is a very thorough answer. I thought that plants were classified as annuals or perennial based on their genetics but it seems that many are based on how they are cared for.

For example:
Peppers, they can be brought indoors over winter and continue to produce in the spring. Tomatoes can do that too.

Many people grow them as annuals because they supposedly decrease production in the second year and don't taste as good.

I've also heard of some sativas growing as perennials and never fully ripening.
 

freejoy

New Member
Your answer is typically more well understood by veteran outdoor growers- that grow much more than just pot ;)
Actually i want to grow fruit and vegetables. Maybe a couple pot plants but mostly fruit like tomatoes, squash, strawberries, ect. I thought they would mostly need about the same kind of light as they all need full sunlight. So in the end what kind of lighting would you suggest full spectrum or a sperate red and blue? Also don't you think plants in general need the green and yellow lights spectrum too? I can tell there is much i have to learn :) thanks
 

reza92

Well-Known Member
Wrong.

the circadian rhythm is what causes plants to flower.

It is a genetically stored hormonal reaction that the pigments in the tissue of the plants releases when a concentration of the R-FR spectrums Flare out within a cycle that indicates to the plant its growing season is coming to a close.

Cryptochromes- and Phytochromes react directly to both the red and blue spectrum's of light independently.

The rhuderalis strains you are referring to that flower under 24 hrs of light are indigenous to tropical equitorial zones that do not adhere to the same climate and lighting conditions as the strains that developed in the southern and northern hemispheres. These plants actually do not have phytochromes, which is why they flower automatically.
It also is not so regulated by 12/12 as everyone would say. But as a general rule of thumb- it works. Full spectrum bulbs contain a dense enough amount of the F-FR spectrum to induce flowering, HPS has much more FR density which helps the plant regulate its hormonal balance with a focus on fruit production- so yes you were correct about the "light angles changing" what is actually changing is the part of our atmosphere that the radiation enters from blocks less FR spectrum, and its increased density triggers a hormonal reaction in the plant to begin flowering.
well i like learning things.

so question, are you saying its possible to flower a plant by providing large amount of F-FR spectrum even under 24hrs of light??
 

mikeykrinshaw12

Well-Known Member
I am in no place to recommend what kind of light to use if I don't know what kind of schedule or how many plants and what techniques you plan to use on them.

I can tell you I recently picked up a 400W MH 7200K (predominantly blue spectrum) that I particularly like to use with plants that need to "heal" or "recover"- but produces large thick and strong growth. I also liked the full spectrum 1000W MH (daylight) for larger plants that I wanted to do controlled growth segments with, and there is a full spectrum (daylight) hps conversion bulb (600W) that I like to use for getting plants to stimulate denser growth among the top regions of the plant and while doing LST techniques- the stem strength of plants under the 1000W and 600W has been noticeably stronger than those under the 400W. Hope that helps a bit- You could use HPS to flower, some say that their plants grow faster under that spectrum, but I believe that plants store less energy and use more energy for vegetative growth under the more red spectrums, they also do not recover as well from shocks or mistreatment under that light- just my experience.

And no- it is the Flaring off of the Far Red spectrum signalling the end of the grow season which triggers the flowering response- I don't think it would work unless it was a rhuderalis. It is not based on amount absorbed, but the cycle of flaring on and off at certain times.
 

freejoy

New Member
ths in no place to recommend what kind of light to use if I don't know what kind of schedule or how many plants and what techniques you plan to use on them.

I can tell you I recently picked up a 400W MH 7200K (predominantly blue spectrum) that I particularly like to use with plants that need to "heal" or "recover"- but produces large thick and strong growth. I also liked the full spectrum 1000W MH (daylight) for larger plants that I wanted to do controlled growth segments with, and there is a full spectrum (daylight) hps conversion bulb (600W) that I like to use for getting plants to stimulate denser growth among the top regions of the plant and while doing LST techniques- the stem strength of plants under the 1000W and 600W has been noticeably stronger than those under the 400W. Hope that helps a bit- You could use HPS to flower, some say that their plants grow faster under that spectrum, but I believe that plants store less energy and use more energy for vegetative growth under the more red spectrums, they also do not recover as well from shocks or mistreatment under that light- just my experience.

And no- it is the Flaring off of the Far Red spectrum signalling the end of the grow season which triggers the flowering response- I don't think it would work unless it was a rhuderalis. It is not based on amount absorbed, but the cycle of flaring on and off at certain times.
Thanks The way im planning this is based on the lighting that i use i.e. the footprint. Im leaning towards induction lighting although the eye horilux HD seems very good. iGrow makes induction lighting but they cost a lot and they want you to buy two a red and blue. i was reading a post that says plants go throught a little shock when one changes from blue to red also. Also they dont give much information on their light micromoles or give a picture of their lights spectrum. Seems they are hidding something (maybe so we can't compare). They have much research on induction though that I found interesting.
But basically I'm going to grow aeroponically using a (probably) 3x3x4 foot root chamber using air assisted oil waste nozzles (like Fatman suggested). I'm wanting to grow mostly strawberries (any other thing I grow has to love the strawberry environment). That's the basic idea.
 
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mikeykrinshaw12

Well-Known Member
http://www.vintagehardware.com/proddetail.php?prod=Grow-Light-Induction-Light-for-Plant-Growth-(TL-200)&gclid=CLbfjIeQ5cMCFRSPfgodJTgAWg

I like the looks of the 400W model myself. There are also many specs about light output. Didn't know you had that kind to put into it. Well, its up to you really. I do enjoy the idea of comparing the different lighting types side by side with control groups.

If you are going to do strawberries and not get them very tall you could certainly go lower wattages, or do t5 and switch out bulbs for desired spectral spread (way cheaper initial investment)- as you don't need the density as much. But if you were to add or switch to growing larger plants vertically, you would want the higher density output. would be nice to see your grow once you get it up and running. if I remember correctly strawberries i grew liked lower ph (5.5) and lower ppm (500 or less). Best of luck.
 
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freejoy

New Member
http://www.vintagehardware.com/proddetail.php?prod=Grow-Light-Induction-Light-for-Plant-Growth-(TL-200)&gclid=CLbfjIeQ5cMCFRSPfgodJTgAWg

I like the looks of the 400W model myself. There are also many specs about light output. Didn't know you had that kind to put into it. Well, its up to you really. I do enjoy the idea of comparing the different lighting types side by side with control groups.

If you are going to do strawberries and not get them very tall you could certainly go lower wattages, or do t5 and switch out bulbs for desired spectral spread (way cheaper initial investment)- as you don't need the density as much. But if you were to add or switch to growing larger plants vertically, you would want the higher density output. would be nice to see your grow once you get it up and running. if I remember correctly strawberries i grew liked lower ph (5.5) and lower ppm (500 or less). Best of luck.
Yeah i like that light too. It just might be the best out there. Ive been trying to get my head around these lights for a few weeks now. Been reading that plants can build a synergy from different colors in the spectrum. I guess its ki d of like taking vitamin c in isolation and eating an orange, you get the stuff that goes with it. Thanks for the link I might get that one.
 

calicocalyx

Well-Known Member
There is some in depth knowledge here. I was just going to add that I think of it as based on the dark period more than the light. Meaning that flowering hormones build up during the night cycle and once the night cycle is a certain length, that's the trigger for photo plants. On another note, I know some old heads that talk of an outdoor plant kept alive for 9 years, in the PNW even. They mulched it and kept it warm, probably kept some light on it in the depths of winter. It must have been a beast.
 
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