what is it that convinces you ?

Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
diesel15 said:
no man, how can someone live and not know what life is? im tryna show what life is. God is life. if you see and understand what life truly is, then you'll see God's proof within life.
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Proof is not simply having things make sense. You are observing things you can't explain (design) and assigning an intentional agent (god) and settling on the comfort that explanation seems to bring, without thinking through the implications or offering support for the conclusion. You are simply saying, life is great..therefore god exists. This amounts to a guess, and guesses can be right, but careful observation and thought suggests god is actually a poor explanation which serves to compound the problem rather than solve it, which makes it a poor guess.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
sen.c said:
I love it, what makes you big in your own mind is your arrogance and pride. You sit back on your computer and use all your big words in an effort to make you feel superior as if you are some intellectual giant but the fact of the matter in the grand scheme of things is you are no more than a blip on the radar that is time.
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If you need me to explain any of my big words I can. Meanwhile how about you offer an actual rebuttal instead of abuse. I point out mistakes, you point out personal dislike.

Everytime I turn around you have an issue with how I go about debating, if you are such a scholar maybe you should write a book that outlines the details and rules of engagement for people to be able to debate you.
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The standards of debate were decided independent of me. Many websites outline the proper way to debate, and also list common invalid debate tactics and logical fallacies. No need for me to write a book; the need seems to lie in your lack of awareness. There is nothing wrong with demanding your points carry intelectual merit beyond manipulation. If you don't want your assertions criticized, don't bring them to the table.

I love your assertion that religious people have some evident lack of knowledge according to you, last time I checked we were all people endowed with the same abilities as you. Just another pride drunken statement to make you feel better.
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My statement pertained to the religious ideology and practice of process; in it's inability to self-correct and embrace critical analysis as compared to science. Science prepares us for and propels us into the future. Science fosters progress. Religion keeps us anchored in past mythology and hinders, indeed outright discourages, advancement.
 
diesel15

diesel15

Active Member
Heisenberg said:
Proof is not simply having things make sense. You are observing things you can't explain (design) and assigning an intentional agent (god) and settling on the comfort that explanation seems to bring, without thinking through the implications or offering support for the conclusion. You are simply saying, life is great..therefore god exists. This amounts to a guess, and guesses can be right, but careful observation and thought suggests god is actually a poor explanation which serves to compound the problem rather than solve it, which makes it a poor guess.
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iunderstand what your sayin. but ihave to ask you. do you know what life truly is? imean to the point where you could be in a crap situation, look around and say wow, life is truely great. but look, nothin is just going to happen(instint or over a prolonged time period) such as life as we know it, from single cells that came together without a master plan being in place from the very beginning. someone(higher being) would have to have commanded them to come together. imean just look at how the body works from the heart/digestion/lungs 5senses/communication etc. its too complex for it all to ''just happen(instint or prolonged)'' without a master plan to be in play from the beginning.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Diesel, you are using an argument from ignorance. I am not calling you stupid or dumb or any of the bullshit sen.c accuses us of. All I'm saying is that it's a logical fallacy. Just because you don't understand how something could have happened naturally doesn't mean it couldn't. Biology has well established how our bodies form and why they work, from the smallest cell to each individual organs. There are still mysteries, but the foundation of human anatomy is already well explained, no divine intervention required.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
diesel15 said:
iunderstand what your sayin. but ihave to ask you. do you know what life truly is? imean to the point where you could be in a crap situation, look around and say wow, life is truely great. but look, nothin is just going to happen(instint or over a prolonged time period) such as life as we know it, from single cells that came together without a master plan being in place from the very beginning. someone(higher being) would have to have commanded them to come together. imean just look at how the body works from the heart/digestion/lungs 5senses/communication etc. its too complex for it all to ''just happen(instint or prolonged)'' without a master plan to be in play from the beginning.
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I think your are correct in your point that life is too complex to be explained by random convergence.

Imagine a rain shower falling on a sidewalk. Now imagine we recorded the sounds of the drops hitting the concrete and discovered that it tapped out, in perfect Morse code, the novel "The Stand" by Stephen King. Obviously this is within the realm of possibility, but it's not going to happen. Think of how unlikely this is, and realize that the chances of a chicken being the result of some cells randomly assembling is orders of magnitude more unlikely. Saying the design of life arose from chaos by chance is thourougly unacceptable and unsatisfying, in this point we agree.

Now we have the explanation of a creator. An intelligence that decided to give order to life and all it's astounding designs. This would seem to offer a reasonable explanation until you consider the question of, where did the creator come from? This seems to be a cliched question but give it some thought for a second. If he exists, wouldn't he himself have to be the product of either random convergence or purposeful design? If you believe he was randomly born (which is possible) then why not believe life's design was randomly born, it is after all far more likely for life to accidentally arise than for a godlike being. Or to keep with the example, it's more likely for the rain to tap out a Stephen King novel than his entire library. You have already rejected random convergence to explain life, so to be consistent you have to reject it for the existence of a deity. So we are left with creation. The creator was created, which leads to the question of who created the creator's designer? We are now inside of an infinite logic loop that has no resolve.

So do we have another explanation for life's design? We do of course, natural selection. What if the rain shower only had to tap out the first word of the novel, or even the first letter. The rest of the taps are simply mistakes that failed and although are present, get ignored. The next time it rains, we only need the next letter, and so on and so on for about 4 billion years. Do you think the rain would eventually have the chance to tap out a novel? Now, this would require a selective process. The taps themselves are random, but we would select only the taps which spelled out the words we wanted. Selection is the opposite of randomness, and selection is exactly what we find in the pressures that arise from our environment. These selective pressures have shaped life's random mutations and demanded they take a form which favors survival. With this explanation of design, we do not have to jump to the top of Mt Improbability in one leap by claiming god, but can leisurely climb up on a gradual slope of selective trial and error.

So, of the two explanations for design, which seems more plausible?
 
diesel15

diesel15

Active Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Diesel, you are using an argument from ignorance. I am not calling you stupid or dumb or any of the bullshit sen.c accuses us of. All I'm saying is that it's a logical fallacy. Just because you don't understand how something could have happened naturally doesn't mean it couldn't. Biology has well established how our bodies form and why they work, from the smallest cell to each individual organs. There are still mysteries, but the foundation of human anatomy is already well explained, no divine intervention required.
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...ok man, you can believe what you want. im going to believe what iwant. they can believe what they want. he/she/shehe/heshe/it can believe what he/she/shehe/heshe/it wants. idont care its your, my, they, he, she, shehe, heshe, it's right to accept and believe what you, me, they, shehe, heshe, it wants. good night to all.

p.s. everybody, dont bother replying to any of my previous posts in this thread because idont care and will not answer them. thank you

with love,
diesel
 
Luger187

Luger187

Well-Known Member
diesel15 said:
...ok man, you can believe what you want. im going to believe what iwant. they can believe what they want. he/she/shehe/heshe/it can believe what he/she/shehe/heshe/it wants. idont care its your, my, they, he, she, shehe, heshe, it's right to accept and believe what you, me, they, shehe, heshe, it wants. good night to all.

p.s. everybody, dont bother replying to any of my previous posts in this thread because idont care and will not answer them. thank you

with love,
diesel
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Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
diesel15 said:
...ok man, you can believe what you want. im going to believe what iwant. they can believe what they want. he/she/shehe/heshe/it can believe what he/she/shehe/heshe/it wants. idont care its your, my, they, he, she, shehe, heshe, it's right to accept and believe what you, me, they, shehe, heshe, it wants. good night to all.

p.s. everybody, dont bother replying to any of my previous posts in this thread because idont care and will not answer them. thank you

with love,
diesel
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Everyone has the right to believe what they want, just as everyone has the right to put their fingers in their ears and cry when that belief undergoes critical analysis. The difference lies in those who are willing to listen to criticism and either validate or refute it. This approach to idea falsification is the essence of progress, where as finger plugging is the essence of religion.
 
diesel15

diesel15

Active Member
Heisenberg said:
Everyone has the right to believe what they want, just as everyone has the right to put their fingers in their ears and cry when that belief undergoes critical analysis. The difference lies in those who are willing to listen to criticism and either validate or refute it. This approach to idea falsification is the essence of progress, where as finger plugging is the essence of religion.
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you make some good points im not bouta sit here and lie. its just this wii internet is so irratating pointing and typing every single little letter in every single post. idont mind criticism not 1 bit its just this wii and my batteries are bouta die in this remote and theres non in the house thats why im frustrated
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
diesel15 said:
no man, how can someone live and not know what life is? im tryna show what life is. God is life. if you see and understand what life truly is, then you'll see God's proof within life.
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Talking in riddles only gives the appearance of deep, intellectual thought. I ask what would this proof look like and you can only reply that I'll see God's proof within life. Very profound and ultimately meaningless. As I said, you seem to have been convinced by personal revelation, you had an experience(s) that tells you there's a god. For those of us that have tried in earnest, some for decades, and never get that same insight (although told others very similar nonsensical combination of words), what do you say to us? It becomes insulting when we tell theists that we have actually tried all of their suggestions. I would hit my knees daily asking only to do god's will and to be open to his presence. Any glimpse or feeling I ever had came from within. There is no way to distinguish legitimate divine presence with a false trick of the mind. The only way I can accept a god is if I actively ignore the strong evidence that humans are wired to have these types of experiences. We can induce spiritual experiences with very weak magnetic fields.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
diesel15 said:
you make some good points im not bouta sit here and lie. its just this wii internet is so irratating pointing and typing every single little letter in every single post. idont mind criticism not 1 bit its just this wii and my batteries are bouta die in this remote and theres non in the house thats why im frustrated
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Oh shit dude I feel ya! I hate typing replies on my phone! I wouldn't even fuck with a wii, waaaaay too frustrating to begin with!
 
tyler.durden

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
diesel15 said:
...ok man, you can believe what you want. im going to believe what iwant. they can believe what they want. he/she/shehe/heshe/it can believe what he/she/shehe/heshe/it wants. idont care its your, my, they, he, she, shehe, heshe, it's right to accept and believe what you, me, they, shehe, heshe, it wants. good night to all.

p.s. everybody, dont bother replying to any of my previous posts in this thread because idont care and will not answer them. thank you

with love,
diesel
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Damn! You got knocked out in the third round by THE GLACIER :)
 
blazinkill504

blazinkill504

Well-Known Member
my question to anyone who thinks we cant be here by chance is have you ever for real thought about the BILLIONS of known stars in the universe? never thought that maybe out of the BILLIONS of scenarios life couldnt have came up in one of them? and lemme say this too im not tryin to make you leave your religion or tryin to convince you that god/creator doesnt exist im just givin you another angle to look at it from cause it bein made by some higher bein doesnt automatically have to be the answer...its the most appealin answer to everyone, but that doesnt mean its correct. well get high first then start thinkin about it. :eyesmoke:
 
diesel15

diesel15

Active Member
mindphuk said:
Talking in riddles only gives the appearance of deep, intellectual thought. I ask what would this proof look like and you can only reply that I'll see God's proof within life. Very profound and ultimately meaningless. As I said, you seem to have been convinced by personal revelation, you had an experience(s) that tells you there's a god. For those of us that have tried in earnest, some for decades, and never get that same insight (although told others very similar nonsensical combination of words), what do you say to us? It becomes insulting when we tell theists that we have actually tried all of their suggestions. I would hit my knees daily asking only to do god's will and to be open to his presence. Any glimpse or feeling I ever had came from within. There is no way to distinguish legitimate divine presence with a false trick of the mind. The only way I can accept a god is if I actively ignore the strong evidence that humans are wired to have these types of experiences. We can induce spiritual experiences with very weak magnetic fields.
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you see heres the thing. burnin herbs can open your mind up to see reality if you use it correctly. imean, its not mentioned throughout the bible for nothin. its a sacred plant. the bible says Abraham burned herbs and God liked that, even Jesus talked about this plant. but why? i and many others can feel God's presence when we burn. whenever iburn im not concerned with things of the world. im one with God, free, peaceful, lovin. you see, being high isn't different, it just brings things you overlook or dont notice to the light where you can experience it. what your experiencing is life. God is life, so your experiencing God when you burn, and erybody loves to burn, so erybody loves God. use the herb to see life(God) and once you see life, you'll see God. but what is life? seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, feeling, interacting with the environment. once you understand these basic things, you'll know who God is. just go with the flow. no stopping and second guessin because it'll make you question your journey. just walk, listen, learn, n burn.

one more thing inoticed from personal experience, dont look at how far you got to go. look at how far you came
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
diesel15 said:
you see heres the thing. burnin herbs can open your mind up to see reality if you use it correctly. imean, its not mentioned throughout the bible for nothin. its a sacred plant. the bible says Abraham burned herbs and God liked that, even Jesus talked about this plant. but why? i and many others can feel God's presence when we burn. whenever iburn im not concerned with things of the world. im one with God, free, peaceful, lovin. you see, being high isn't different, it just brings things you overlook or dont notice to the light where you can experience it. what your experiencing is life. God is life, so your experiencing God when you burn, and erybody loves to burn, so erybody loves God. use the herb to see life(God) and once you see life, you'll see God. but what is life? seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, feeling, interacting with the environment. once you understand these basic things, you'll know who God is. just go with the flow. no stopping and second guessin because it'll make you question your journey. just walk, listen, learn, n burn.

one more thing inoticed from personal experience, dont look at how far you got to go. look at how far you came
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What are the rest of us doing wrong? I've smoked cannabis for 7 years, many on these forums have smoked way longer than that, nothing.

Could you give more specific instructions?
 
diesel15

diesel15

Active Member
Padawanbater2 said:
What are the rest of us doing wrong? I've smoked cannabis for 7 years, many on these forums have smoked way longer than that, nothing.

Could you give more specific instructions?
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ive burned to just get high many times and its cool but unsatisfying. herb for the service of man is part of a bible verse so its for multipurpose use. iuse it to better myself and to gain knowledge and wisdom. also, to experience what life is, which is so hard explaining but once you get it you'll see the light. if you want to see the light you have to be open minded, brave, and unbiased. you have to get out in nature and see what God has created: plants, birds, trees, vision, hearing, sounds etc. becoming one with nature is a good 1st step. the most satisfying thing iever did while high was read the bible. the book of proverbs.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
diesel15 said:
ive burned to just get high many times and its cool but unsatisfying. herb for the service of man is part of a bible verse so its for multipurpose use. iuse it to better myself and to gain knowledge and wisdom. also, to experience what life is, which is so hard explaining but once you get it you'll see the light. if you want to see the light you have to be open minded, brave, and unbiased. you have to get out in nature and see what God has created: plants, birds, trees, vision, hearing, sounds etc. becoming one with nature is a good 1st step. the most satisfying thing iever did while high was read the bible. the book of proverbs.
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What makes you think we haven't done this? You have to understand that what you are saying is essentially meaningless, in that it doesn't explain anything to me. I understand that you've had profound moments while under the influence that you attribute to your faith, but to me these things can all be explained. The more you know, the less there is to guess about. You are being too vague and ambiguous in your explanation. I'm still not getting it.

"go out into nature and just experience life" doesn't tell me anything because I have done that, as have many others, and yet we still don't believe like you do.

There has to be a way to explain the process to someone who doesn't believe. I've gone out into nature, it's beautiful but there is nothing, absolutely nothing, from the animals to the plants to the mountains to the rocks to the water to the very Earth I stand on that can't be explained through naturalistic means. None of this is the trademark of a creator if you understand what you're looking at. Furthermore, if nature was the standard in which we observed divinity, how would you explain things we see in nature that are completely inconsistent with human survival? Sure we see patterns and human faces when there are none, but what do you make of those patterns or faces when they're observed in things like storm clouds, hurricanes, volcano explosions, the HIV virus, Cancer, etc? How do you account for all the things in nature that exist that could kill us in seconds? Is that God's creation too?
 
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