When Does Life Begin ...

Oh and not all women are going out whooping it up when they get pregnant, Zen.Some women can't afford to crap out a kid.We're not baby factories...I know that may shock you.What of a married woman, in her late forties, who because of menopause has irregular periods and so miscalculates and gets pregnant?Are you saying this woman should have to have this child, when not only is it more of a physical risk for her, but she'll be nearly seventy when the kid's grown.Yup, she was partying there.Grandma really knows how to let her hair down.Are you saying an 11 year old girl should have to give birth, simply because she went a little too far with her 13 year old boyfriend and let him put the head in?Yeah, saddle that stupid little whore up with a baby she doesn't want...or know how to care for....that kid's gonna be so grateful for the gift of life!

ZenMaster said:

They are innocent by default, they did nothing to incur the hand to snuff out their life. Save from the fact they are in the way of mama going and partying.

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But where in the bible did they get that a woman has no reproductive rights?

medicineman said:

These right wing zealots know no reason. They speak from the Babel of the Bible, a book that was written by man and interpreted by man so many times it has lost the original meaning. They had no such thing as abortion when the bible was written. The word from God is, "Love your neighbor as yourself", If this was followed by all these "faux Christians", the world would be a paradise. But they'd rather try and tell everyone else how to live, disgusting!

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Stoney McFried said:

You know nothing about me,so you can't make statements regarding my character.If you choose to keep the baby, then take care of your body.Nowhere did I say, gee, go do drugs when you're pregnant.

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Spitzered's statement was

Spitzered said:

My real problem is the argument that the woman has the right to chose because it her body. Don't get caught smoking a joint, that 'your body' argument ceases to be relevant.

Am I mistaken or is that hypocrisy?

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Which meant that you cannot do things while pregnant even though its your body. With your response

Stoney McFried said:

And yes, the woman has the right to choose because its her body.Whatever anyone does to their own body is their own business, including smoking a joint.Do you like the government telling you that you can't smoke marijuana with your own lungs?

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Which is evident that you claim you are able to do anything you want because its your body, so don't get all pissed at me because of my criticism to your response when you did not fully understand what Spitzered meant.

Stoney McFried said:

As for being immoral, I bet even by your standards, I couln't be so judged.I don't care if you like it or not that a woman thinks it's her body...it doesn't change the fact that it is.The woman carries to term.The woman goes through labor.The woman's body is irrevocably changed forever.It's easy for a man to bitch and moan about it not being just her choice when all he has to do is ejaculate.

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Unfortunately Stoney, with this selfish attitude it is hard not to judge you on your immaturity. The real fact its not your body anymore, you are now sharing it and also that baby belongs as much to the male as the female. Its not solely yours, deal with it. Don't bitch because of how the system of reproduction works, so all we do is have to ejaculate but that doesn't cut us from it all. Sex is meant for one thing, and one thing only, when you do it for fun and accidentally achieve its purpose you take responsibility for it.

Stoney McFried said:

You all want to bitch about innocent lives?Then go help some of the children starving, right here in this country.Buy some decent clothing for them...donate...hell, millions of children alive now in India....they're being sold into protitution....I don't see any of you moral crusaders over there doing anything about it.No, you choose to sit on a high horse on an internet forum and rant about people that don't even exist yet.And ignore the people who do.

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Me and my family have donated so much to the homeless and starving that it would amaze you, don't preach to me on this. The world is a sad cruel place and some are born with the silver spoon and some aren't, but at least they have a fighting chance than no chance at all. I'd rather be born into vast poverty than not to be born at all. Don't think you'd be doing the child a favor by not showing them this world, that is just a feeble excuse for your own selfish desires. Us "moral crusaders" do what we can to make this a better place, all over the world, you need to grow up. And believe me, I'll shred you on this face to face and not just the internet as I have many others, don't think I am launching a crusade across the interw3bz, I fight this battle on all fronts.

Stoney McFried said:

Yes, it is about religion...mind control if ever there was any...and the want to control women and keep them in their "place"I repeat, you can't stop it.You just want it made illegal so the mothers have to die, too, to satisfy your interpretation of what your god wants.

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This is where you lose me. This isn't some plot to make women a house wife, this is the fight to make them have some responsibility and stop acting like a little spoiled adolescents. The only "mind control" is in your own mind.

I want to keep it illegal so that mothers have to die? The chance of dying from giving birth used to be something to worry about 100 years ago, with today's medical field the chance of you dying from birth are very very low. Also, you make it sound that I want to kill women because of what God wants? You are so messed up on your views of God and religion that you need serious intervention. I just pray someone has the patience with you.

Stoney McFried said:

Oh and not all women are going out whooping it up when they get pregnant, Zen.Some women can't afford to crap out a kid.We're not baby factories...I know that may shock you.What of a married woman, in her late forties, who because of menopause has irregular periods and so miscalculates and gets pregnant?Are you saying this woman should have to have this child, when not only is it more of a physical risk for her, but she'll be nearly seventy when the kid's grown.Yup, she was partying there.Grandma really knows how to let her hair down.Are you saying an 11 year old girl should have to give birth, simply because she went a little too far with her 13 year old boyfriend and let him put the head in?Yeah, saddle that stupid little whore up with a baby she doesn't want...or know how to care for....that kid's gonna be so grateful for the gift of life!

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These cases, which account of probably 1-2% of all abortions being made still remain the same. Yes, the grandma and the 11 year old made a mistake, but they should have to deal with it.

Also, that kid would be grateful for the gift of life whether they choose to keep it or throw it in adoption. They should get some sort of chance rather than no chance.

Sex is meant for one thing, and one thing only, when you do it for fun and accidentally achieve its purpose you take responsibility for it.
!Here's where the rubber meets the road. The thumpers say that sex is meant for procreation only. It seem logical that a merciful and loving God would allow for some recreational sex. After all, that is about all poor people have to look foward to. We have to teach birth control to the minions or mother earth will not be able to sustain us. Birth control, not sex control!

Remember kids............before you can even light a cigarette their is a third person in the room

Actually..I did understand...but I was using the way the government tries to control the use of marijuana as an example.Pay attention.As for acting like spoiled adolescents,once again, you have no idea.I CHOSE to have a child I wasn't prepared for, and yes, it nearly cost me my life.Maybe you need to research how dangerous it REALLY is to have a child, and the united states infant mortality rate...it may surprise you.It's great that you donate...but don't assume life is always the better choice.And don't assume that everyone feels the same way about life that you do.What you want to do is force your morality onto others.Let me say...I don't personally believe that you shouldn't use birth control,and take measure to prevent.But shit happens.Sex is not just for reproduction...that's a Puritan attitude if I ever saw one.Sex can be an expression of affection, a real way to bond between people. But you are trying to fit everyone into your own belief system and judge them according to that.Guess what...not all people believe in Jesus Christ.There is more than one religion in the world.What's "immoral" by your standards may be perfectly acceptable to another religion.So stop trying to force others into your box that you have constructed for yourself.And as for someone having patience with me...I've already learned as much of Christianity as I care to.You keep your god, I don't want him.

ZenMaster said:

Spitzered's statement was


Which meant that you cannot do things while pregnant even though its your body. With your response



Which is evident that you claim you are able to do anything you want because its your body, so don't get all pissed at me because of my criticism to your response when you did not fully understand what Spitzered meant.



Unfortunately Stoney, with this selfish attitude it is hard not to judge you on your immaturity. The real fact its not your body anymore, you are now sharing it and also that baby belongs as much to the male as the female. Its not solely yours, deal with it. Don't bitch because of how the system of reproduction works, so all we do is have to ejaculate but that doesn't cut us from it all. Sex is meant for one thing, and one thing only, when you do it for fun and accidentally achieve its purpose you take responsibility for it.



Me and my family have donated so much to the homeless and starving that it would amaze you, don't preach to me on this. The world is a sad cruel place and some are born with the silver spoon and some aren't, but at least they have a fighting chance than no chance at all. I'd rather be born into vast poverty than not to be born at all. Don't think you'd be doing the child a favor by not showing them this world, that is just a feeble excuse for your own selfish desires. Us "moral crusaders" do what we can to make this a better place, all over the world, you need to grow up. And believe me, I'll shred you on this face to face and not just the internet as I have many others, don't think I am launching a crusade across the interw3bz, I fight this battle on all fronts.



This is where you lose me. This isn't some plot to make women a house wife, this is the fight to make them have some responsibility and stop acting like a little spoiled adolescents. The only "mind control" is in your own mind.

I want to keep it illegal so that mothers have to die? The chance of dying from giving birth used to be something to worry about 100 years ago, with today's medical field the chance of you dying from birth are very very low. Also, you make it sound that I want to kill women because of what God wants? You are so messed up on your views of God and religion that you need serious intervention. I just pray someone has the patience with you.

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Dankdude said:

Jesus Zen, (although the name really doesn't apply in your case) the more I read you, the more I am convinced your an ignorant little boy who knows little or nothing about the real world.

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Feel free to prove this accusation, DankDude or do I have to put you in your place again?

Stoney McFried said:

Actually..I did understand...but I was using the way the government tries to control the use of marijuana as an example.Pay attention.As for acting like spoiled adolescents,once again, you have no idea.I CHOSE to have a child I wasn't prepared for, and yes, it nearly cost me my life.Maybe you need to research how dangerous it REALLY is to have a child, and the united states infant mortality rate...it may surprise you.It's great that you donate...but don't assume life is always the better choice.And don't assume that everyone feels the same way about life that you do.What you want to do is force your morality onto others.Let me say...I don't personally believe that you shouldn't use birth control,and take measure to prevent.But shit happens.Sex is not just for reproduction...that's a Puritan attitude if I ever saw one.Sex can be an expression of affection, a real way to bond between people. But you are trying to fit everyone into your own belief system and judge them according to that.Guess what...not all people believe in Jesus Christ.There is more than one religion in the world.What's "immoral" by your standards may be perfectly acceptable to another religion.So stop trying to force others into your box that you have constructed for yourself.And as for someone having patience with me...I've already learned as much of Christianity as I care to.You keep your god, I don't want him.

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I was stating from a scientific view that sex is meant for one thing only, which by human culture and idiosyncrasy has turned it into romance and sport. We cannot derive from our species code.

Also, it isn't just God fearing Christians that are against pro-life, this issue goes beyond just them, this is a world-wide debate regardless of what religion you are apart of.

The way I see it, is that 90% of abortions are selfish and suit only the needs of materialistic, irresponsible mothers. Hospitals do many a day and the cases of rape or incest are very low.

I guess if you feel that the baby is solely the mothers, and its solely her body and she can do whatever she wants with it, thats fine. I disagree and I think its not right to snuff out the life before it had a chance to say it didn't like it.

It isn't just humans who have sex for pleasure.Dolphins,apes, and other animals have sex for this reason.Women have always handled reproduction.How many guys are actually on the male birth control pill?Most forms of contraception could be considered abortifacients.If the Catholic church had its way, contraception wouldn't be available either.I don't think abortions are mostly selfish.It's a hard decision that should be left to the one impacted the most.The woman.I know you disagree.

ZenMaster said:

I was stating from a scientific view that sex is meant for one thing only, which by human culture and idiosyncrasy has turned it into romance and sport. We cannot derive from our species code.

Also, it isn't just God fearing Christians that are against pro-life, this issue goes beyond just them, this is a world-wide debate regardless of what religion you are apart of.

The way I see it, is that 90% of abortions are selfish and suit only the needs of materialistic, irresponsible mothers. Hospitals do many a day and the cases of rape or incest are very low.

I guess if you feel that the baby is solely the mothers, and its solely her body and she can do whatever she wants with it, thats fine. I disagree and I think its not right to snuff out the life before it had a chance to say it didn't like it.

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Dankdude said:

you never put me in my place to begin with... you just happen to be a legend in your own mind.
But go ahead and keep trying, you'll just prove my assumptions of you to the world.

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Silly Dank.

Nothing to say as usual, move along..

You're right.I never could reconcile myself with such a religion.I guess that's why I've always been drawn to the really old ideas,like goddess worship and the like.But I'm just not into religion, and I don't like to be judged on a moral code I don't even subscribe to.

Dankdude said:

Now there was someone who asked if there was a place in the bible that had anything to say about a womans reproductive rights... here is what I said:

The only thing that most pro-lifers (am personally one myself, but it's a personal opinion and I don't push it off on others) can pull out of the Bible is "Thou Shalt not Kill". But otherwise there is nothing in the bible that says anything about a woman's reproductive rights.
You have to remember that mostly back in the days that the Bible was written that women were basically treated as chattel. There were a couple of exceptions, but they were few.

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