When growing in organic super soil, do you water until runoff?

green_machine_two9er said:

Not sure where I heard it but I thought the outer edges of the root system is where a huge portion of microherd are hanging and doing there thing. Illl try to look it up.

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Maybe you're thinking the topsoil right under the mulch. That's the most full of life part in organic soil, but you want to keep it moist. There's lots of microbes in the rhizosphere all through the soil too though.

I like fabric pots, but it's way too dry here. They would be great for a humid location. And you really aren't supposed to do organic living soil with less than 15. So I use plastic 15's. Right now the plants are huge, so I need to water every other day. I really should water daily, but there's no way in hell I'm going to water everyday so they just have to deal with it.

I sometimes water until runoff, but it's usually accidental. I don't let water sit there to be reabsorbed. I keep a little shopvac by my tent for such situations to suck it up, then I feed it to our houseplants. It looks very dark (almost black) and pretty vile looking. The houseplants seem to like it though. A periodic "flush" of a no-till grow isn't a bad thing. I'm sure things accumulate there that the plants don't need in large amounts over the months and years - like salt (sodium chloride) and other soluble compounds. Outdoors, natural plants grow in soil that's continually leached by falling rain that takes away these excess soluble substances that might otherwise buildup. Good CEC and soil structure will ensure you hold onto the good stuff your plants need.

PadawanWarrior said:

Horrible advice.

Click to expand...

Proper set up ORGANICS.
I'm just saying️

myke said:

This is true,a high CEC cant be flushed out.Something about positive charged cations or something like that.

Click to expand...

This.

Look on the back of whatever amendment or Down To Earth/Dr Earth amendment blend, on the back you'll notice it specifics whether something is water soluble or not.

Anything water soluble, you will lose in runoff. However, anything NOT water soluble will not be lost in runoff. This can be a blessing or a curse. Similar to mathematics, there is a specific order of operations at play here that non-soluble ingredients follow.

Water insoluble (does not bond to water, and therefore does not flow with water. even in runoff) ingredients will typically always follow this same "order of operations";

1) Your plant absorbs it.
2) Your soil absorbs it.
3) It becomes "salt" in your substrate and causes issues.


Lets go with an example that demonstrates why I always rant about multiple top dresses of "light" ingredients as opposed to using "hot" ingredients.

You use Seabird Guano (extremely hot @ 0-11-0)

Your plant only needs 2 Phosphorus, so there is still 9 left to deal with. Your soil (via CEC as @myke pointed out) can only absorb 5-6 of it.

So, the soil absorbs 6, your plant consumes 2, but: 11 - 2 - 6 = 3. There is now a surplus of 3 Phosphorus from your Seabird guano that is still "stuck" in your soil. It is "stuck" because it is water INsoluble, it will NOT runoff, it will NOT bond to your soil, and the plant will NOT absorb it. The result? It becomes a salt.

You've fed this 0-11-0 ingredient to your soil, however the plant can only process 2 of it, and your soil can only store 6 of it, so the rest is leftover in your soil medium.



This is exactly why I opt in favor of "lighter" ingredients as opposed to "hotter" ingredients, not because I'm anything special, but because it provides great control over things.

Lets take the same example from above, but with something like Dr Earth's 4-6-5 blend.

Your plant only needs 2 Phosphorus, now there is 4 Phosphorus leftoever. However, your soil can absorb 5-6 of the "excess" Phosphorus. So, 6P right? 2 out of 6 goes directly to the plant and the other 4 goes straight to the soil. NOTHING becomes "salts" at that point, because it is all accounted for. Whatever the plant doesn't absorb, the soil does, and there isn't any excess after that. The result is that you NEVER have salt buildup, and if for some reason you don't top dress one week (or the top dress wasn't "big" enough) the soil has plenty stored up in its "pantry" so to speak.

The end result is that your plant gets fed, the soil gets fed, but there is ZERO salt build up.

This is why Coots (and other gurus) have such a hard on for using "light" NPK amendments in favor of "hot" amendments.

By using light amendments, you have significantly more room for error because you can always add more if you need. You can NEVER subtract, but you can ALWAYS add. Much better to have too little than too much.

Any of you guys drink alcohol? What causes more problems? Too much alcohol, or too little? And how "thin" is the line between too much and too little? Same goes with nutrition, and even hydration. Plenty of instances of people dying from excess water in fact, but that certainly doesn't mean we should stop drinking water. Right?



You know why I love the "salt buildup" example so much? It is exactly like cooking! Salt is immensely useful in processing food ingredients and bringing out/extracting their flavor. However, using too much salt will quite literally result in a "salt buildup" that makes your food taste like shit.

Treat your plant/soil the same way you treat your food! "Salt it" prior to cooking, and "salt it" during cooking, but do so in a way that doesn't result in "salt buildup". Any of you who've added too much salt to a meal will know everything about "salt buildup". Plants experience that too.



With organics, we don't need high NPK ratios because that will lead to salt build ups that will fuck with our pH, among other issues.

Consider a human trying to gain protein. We want to bulk up and gain mass, right? So protein. Again, let us consider two examples.

Example 1) Go to McDonalds and get a McDouble. 22g of protein, 80mg Calcium, 282mg Potassium, but 920mg sodium and 70mg Cholesterol that we do NOT need.

Now, lets analyze a simple glass of milk.

8g protein, 280mg Ca, 300mg Potassium, and minimal sodium/cholesterol content.


A single glass of milk has better nutritional content than that of a McDouble, and yet most of us go for the McDouble over the milk everytime. Especially me, I love my McGangbangs (McChicken placed in between a McDouble. Still very much a guilty pleasure of mine, no shame).

Plants are no different than humans; we need water, shade/shelter, and nourishment. Consistent water supply, and source of nourishment is what makes the difference, whether its plants or people.



As always, forgive the rant and all the best.

kratos015 said:

This.

Look on the back of whatever amendment or Down To Earth/Dr Earth amendment blend, on the back you'll notice it specifics whether something is water soluble or not.

Anything water soluble, you will lose in runoff. However, anything NOT water soluble will not be lost in runoff. This can be a blessing or a curse. Similar to mathematics, there is a specific order of operations at play here that non-soluble ingredients follow.

Water insoluble (does not bond to water, and therefore does not flow with water. even in runoff) ingredients will typically always follow this same "order of operations";

1) Your plant absorbs it.
2) Your soil absorbs it.
3) It becomes "salt" in your substrate and causes issues.


Lets go with an example that demonstrates why I always rant about multiple top dresses of "light" ingredients as opposed to using "hot" ingredients.

You use Seabird Guano (extremely hot @ 0-11-0)

Your plant only needs 2 Phosphorus, so there is still 9 left to deal with. Your soil (via CEC as @myke pointed out) can only absorb 5-6 of it.

So, the soil absorbs 6, your plant consumes 2, but: 11 - 2 - 6 = 3. There is now a surplus of 3 Phosphorus from your Seabird guano that is still "stuck" in your soil. It is "stuck" because it is water INsoluble, it will NOT runoff, it will NOT bond to your soil, and the plant will NOT absorb it. The result? It becomes a salt.

You've fed this 0-11-0 ingredient to your soil, however the plant can only process 2 of it, and your soil can only store 6 of it, so the rest is leftover in your soil medium.



This is exactly why I opt in favor of "lighter" ingredients as opposed to "hotter" ingredients, not because I'm anything special, but because it provides great control over things.

Lets take the same example from above, but with something like Dr Earth's 4-6-5 blend.

Your plant only needs 2 Phosphorus, now there is 4 Phosphorus leftoever. However, your soil can absorb 5-6 of the "excess" Phosphorus. So, 6P right? 2 out of 6 goes directly to the plant and the other 4 goes straight to the soil. NOTHING becomes "salts" at that point, because it is all accounted for. Whatever the plant doesn't absorb, the soil does, and there isn't any excess after that. The result is that you NEVER have salt buildup, and if for some reason you don't top dress one week (or the top dress wasn't "big" enough) the soil has plenty stored up in its "pantry" so to speak.

The end result is that your plant gets fed, the soil gets fed, but there is ZERO salt build up.

This is why Coots (and other gurus) have such a hard on for using "light" NPK amendments in favor of "hot" amendments.

By using light amendments, you have significantly more room for error because you can always add more if you need. You can NEVER subtract, but you can ALWAYS add. Much better to have too little than too much.

Any of you guys drink alcohol? What causes more problems? Too much alcohol, or too little? And how "thin" is the line between too much and too little? Same goes with nutrition, and even hydration. Plenty of instances of people dying from excess water in fact, but that certainly doesn't mean we should stop drinking water. Right?



You know why I love the "salt buildup" example so much? It is exactly like cooking! Salt is immensely useful in processing food ingredients and bringing out/extracting their flavor. However, using too much salt will quite literally result in a "salt buildup" that makes your food taste like shit.

Treat your plant/soil the same way you treat your food! "Salt it" prior to cooking, and "salt it" during cooking, but do so in a way that doesn't result in "salt buildup". Any of you who've added too much salt to a meal will know everything about "salt buildup". Plants experience that too.



With organics, we don't need high NPK ratios because that will lead to salt build ups that will fuck with our pH, among other issues.

Consider a human trying to gain protein. We want to bulk up and gain mass, right? So protein. Again, let us consider two examples.

Example 1) Go to McDonalds and get a McDouble. 22g of protein, 80mg Calcium, 282mg Potassium, but 920mg sodium and 70mg Cholesterol that we do NOT need.

Now, lets analyze a simple glass of milk.

8g protein, 280mg Ca, 300mg Potassium, and minimal sodium/cholesterol content.


A single glass of milk has better nutritional content than that of a McDouble, and yet most of us go for the McDouble over the milk everytime. Especially me, I love my McGangbangs (McChicken placed in between a McDouble. Still very much a guilty pleasure of mine, no shame).

Plants are no different than humans; we need water, shade/shelter, and nourishment. Consistent water supply, and source of nourishment is what makes the difference, whether its plants or people.



As always, forgive the rant and all the best.

Click to expand...

That was a great rant and explanation of salt buildup. I thought it was always from using synthetic fertilizer vs organic amendments, but it is more to do with the strength.

green_machine_two9er said:

But you can you flush “bad organics”???

Click to expand...

What is bad organics? Do they carry guns and sell drugs?

BlandMeow said:

From the dude that brought you "do you pH your water" here comes "do you water until runoff?"

So much info out there about watering, but I wonder if some of the Coco or salt nute heads have muddied the water. This is specific to growing in a super soil or living soil and top dressing with compost/dry amendments/compost teas, etc (not bottled nutes).

Let's hear it. Personally, I always water to a deep soaking and inevitably some water drips out of the bottom, but nothing that can be measured.

Click to expand...

With living soil, you only want to water 5-10% water to soil volume. 5% when the plant is small working your way up to 10% as it gets bigger. You may get a tiny bit of runoff at the 10% mark, but it should be ok.

Edit: sorry.... in my opinion.

Hollatchaboy said:

With living soil, you only want to water 5-10% water to soil volume. 5% when the plant is small working your way up to 10% as it gets bigger. You may get a tiny bit of runoff at the 10% mark, but it should be ok.

Edit: sorry.... in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Pretty spot on if you ask me. My tens average about 2-3 qrt a day. Sevens about 1.5 qrt or so. Usually little to no runoff. Watered daily.

green_machine_two9er said:

Pretty spot on if you ask me. My tens average about 2-3 qrt a day. Sevens about 1.5 qrt or so. Usually little to no runoff. Watered daily.

Click to expand...

Yup my 10g sip with a big plant is 2-3qrt a day,smaller plants are about a qrt a day.

kratos015 said:

This.

Look on the back of whatever amendment or Down To Earth/Dr Earth amendment blend, on the back you'll notice it specifics whether something is water soluble or not.

Anything water soluble, you will lose in runoff. However, anything NOT water soluble will not be lost in runoff. This can be a blessing or a curse. Similar to mathematics, there is a specific order of operations at play here that non-soluble ingredients follow.

Water insoluble (does not bond to water, and therefore does not flow with water. even in runoff) ingredients will typically always follow this same "order of operations";

1) Your plant absorbs it.
2) Your soil absorbs it.
3) It becomes "salt" in your substrate and causes issues.


Lets go with an example that demonstrates why I always rant about multiple top dresses of "light" ingredients as opposed to using "hot" ingredients.

You use Seabird Guano (extremely hot @ 0-11-0)

Your plant only needs 2 Phosphorus, so there is still 9 left to deal with. Your soil (via CEC as @myke pointed out) can only absorb 5-6 of it.

So, the soil absorbs 6, your plant consumes 2, but: 11 - 2 - 6 = 3. There is now a surplus of 3 Phosphorus from your Seabird guano that is still "stuck" in your soil. It is "stuck" because it is water INsoluble, it will NOT runoff, it will NOT bond to your soil, and the plant will NOT absorb it. The result? It becomes a salt.

You've fed this 0-11-0 ingredient to your soil, however the plant can only process 2 of it, and your soil can only store 6 of it, so the rest is leftover in your soil medium.



This is exactly why I opt in favor of "lighter" ingredients as opposed to "hotter" ingredients, not because I'm anything special, but because it provides great control over things.

Lets take the same example from above, but with something like Dr Earth's 4-6-5 blend.

Your plant only needs 2 Phosphorus, now there is 4 Phosphorus leftoever. However, your soil can absorb 5-6 of the "excess" Phosphorus. So, 6P right? 2 out of 6 goes directly to the plant and the other 4 goes straight to the soil. NOTHING becomes "salts" at that point, because it is all accounted for. Whatever the plant doesn't absorb, the soil does, and there isn't any excess after that. The result is that you NEVER have salt buildup, and if for some reason you don't top dress one week (or the top dress wasn't "big" enough) the soil has plenty stored up in its "pantry" so to speak.

The end result is that your plant gets fed, the soil gets fed, but there is ZERO salt build up.

This is why Coots (and other gurus) have such a hard on for using "light" NPK amendments in favor of "hot" amendments.

By using light amendments, you have significantly more room for error because you can always add more if you need. You can NEVER subtract, but you can ALWAYS add. Much better to have too little than too much.

Any of you guys drink alcohol? What causes more problems? Too much alcohol, or too little? And how "thin" is the line between too much and too little? Same goes with nutrition, and even hydration. Plenty of instances of people dying from excess water in fact, but that certainly doesn't mean we should stop drinking water. Right?



You know why I love the "salt buildup" example so much? It is exactly like cooking! Salt is immensely useful in processing food ingredients and bringing out/extracting their flavor. However, using too much salt will quite literally result in a "salt buildup" that makes your food taste like shit.

Treat your plant/soil the same way you treat your food! "Salt it" prior to cooking, and "salt it" during cooking, but do so in a way that doesn't result in "salt buildup". Any of you who've added too much salt to a meal will know everything about "salt buildup". Plants experience that too.



With organics, we don't need high NPK ratios because that will lead to salt build ups that will fuck with our pH, among other issues.

Consider a human trying to gain protein. We want to bulk up and gain mass, right? So protein. Again, let us consider two examples.

Example 1) Go to McDonalds and get a McDouble. 22g of protein, 80mg Calcium, 282mg Potassium, but 920mg sodium and 70mg Cholesterol that we do NOT need.

Now, lets analyze a simple glass of milk.

8g protein, 280mg Ca, 300mg Potassium, and minimal sodium/cholesterol content.


A single glass of milk has better nutritional content than that of a McDouble, and yet most of us go for the McDouble over the milk everytime. Especially me, I love my McGangbangs (McChicken placed in between a McDouble. Still very much a guilty pleasure of mine, no shame).

Plants are no different than humans; we need water, shade/shelter, and nourishment. Consistent water supply, and source of nourishment is what makes the difference, whether its plants or people.



As always, forgive the rant and all the best.

Click to expand...

The McGangBang I know what im having for lunch!! When Taco Bell came out with the naked chicken taco, I turned it into the barnyard taco. Fried Chicken taco shell, add beef, add bacon

GrassBurner said:

The McGangBang I know what im having for lunch!! When Taco Bell came out with the naked chicken taco, I turned it into the barnyard taco. Fried Chicken taco shell, add beef, add bacon

Click to expand...

Should've called it the artery hardener. Lol

Whats the quote from that comedian, "You can live to be 100, if you give up all the things that make you want to live to 100"

I snapped these to share with soil growers it might be of interest to some of you.

This is nothing to do with me I don't grow in soil and know nothing about it, I found this interesting though after reading so much about over watering soil?
The saucers don't get to empty, they grow their tomatoes start to finish like that and have done for years.
The owner is familiar with blossom rot but not root rot.

Star Dog said:

I snapped these to share with soil growers it might be of interest to some of you.
View attachment 4941951View attachment 4941953
This is nothing to do with me I don't grow in soil and know nothing about it, I found this interesting though after reading so much about over watering soil?
The saucers don't get to empty, they grow their tomatoes start to finish like that and have done for years.
The owner is familiar with blossom rot but not root rot.

Click to expand...

Those are bottom watered? Or just kept saturated? IME it’s hard to over water properly mixed soil. I’m curious what the tomatoes look like

green_machine_two9er said:

Those are bottom watered? Or just kept saturated? IME it’s hard to over water properly mixed soil. I’m curious what the tomatoes look like

Click to expand...

Yes they only get watered via the saucer, I'll snap a few pics of the trusses next time I'm round.

kratos015 said:

This.

Look on the back of whatever amendment or Down To Earth/Dr Earth amendment blend, on the back you'll notice it specifics whether something is water soluble or not.

Anything water soluble, you will lose in runoff. However, anything NOT water soluble will not be lost in runoff. This can be a blessing or a curse. Similar to mathematics, there is a specific order of operations at play here that non-soluble ingredients follow.

Water insoluble (does not bond to water, and therefore does not flow with water. even in runoff) ingredients will typically always follow this same "order of operations";

1) Your plant absorbs it.
2) Your soil absorbs it.
3) It becomes "salt" in your substrate and causes issues.


Lets go with an example that demonstrates why I always rant about multiple top dresses of "light" ingredients as opposed to using "hot" ingredients.

You use Seabird Guano (extremely hot @ 0-11-0)

Your plant only needs 2 Phosphorus, so there is still 9 left to deal with. Your soil (via CEC as @myke pointed out) can only absorb 5-6 of it.

So, the soil absorbs 6, your plant consumes 2, but: 11 - 2 - 6 = 3. There is now a surplus of 3 Phosphorus from your Seabird guano that is still "stuck" in your soil. It is "stuck" because it is water INsoluble, it will NOT runoff, it will NOT bond to your soil, and the plant will NOT absorb it. The result? It becomes a salt.

You've fed this 0-11-0 ingredient to your soil, however the plant can only process 2 of it, and your soil can only store 6 of it, so the rest is leftover in your soil medium.



This is exactly why I opt in favor of "lighter" ingredients as opposed to "hotter" ingredients, not because I'm anything special, but because it provides great control over things.

Lets take the same example from above, but with something like Dr Earth's 4-6-5 blend.

Your plant only needs 2 Phosphorus, now there is 4 Phosphorus leftoever. However, your soil can absorb 5-6 of the "excess" Phosphorus. So, 6P right? 2 out of 6 goes directly to the plant and the other 4 goes straight to the soil. NOTHING becomes "salts" at that point, because it is all accounted for. Whatever the plant doesn't absorb, the soil does, and there isn't any excess after that. The result is that you NEVER have salt buildup, and if for some reason you don't top dress one week (or the top dress wasn't "big" enough) the soil has plenty stored up in its "pantry" so to speak.

The end result is that your plant gets fed, the soil gets fed, but there is ZERO salt build up.

This is why Coots (and other gurus) have such a hard on for using "light" NPK amendments in favor of "hot" amendments.

By using light amendments, you have significantly more room for error because you can always add more if you need. You can NEVER subtract, but you can ALWAYS add. Much better to have too little than too much.

Any of you guys drink alcohol? What causes more problems? Too much alcohol, or too little? And how "thin" is the line between too much and too little? Same goes with nutrition, and even hydration. Plenty of instances of people dying from excess water in fact, but that certainly doesn't mean we should stop drinking water. Right?



You know why I love the "salt buildup" example so much? It is exactly like cooking! Salt is immensely useful in processing food ingredients and bringing out/extracting their flavor. However, using too much salt will quite literally result in a "salt buildup" that makes your food taste like shit.

Treat your plant/soil the same way you treat your food! "Salt it" prior to cooking, and "salt it" during cooking, but do so in a way that doesn't result in "salt buildup". Any of you who've added too much salt to a meal will know everything about "salt buildup". Plants experience that too.



With organics, we don't need high NPK ratios because that will lead to salt build ups that will fuck with our pH, among other issues.

Consider a human trying to gain protein. We want to bulk up and gain mass, right? So protein. Again, let us consider two examples.

Example 1) Go to McDonalds and get a McDouble. 22g of protein, 80mg Calcium, 282mg Potassium, but 920mg sodium and 70mg Cholesterol that we do NOT need.

Now, lets analyze a simple glass of milk.

8g protein, 280mg Ca, 300mg Potassium, and minimal sodium/cholesterol content.


A single glass of milk has better nutritional content than that of a McDouble, and yet most of us go for the McDouble over the milk everytime. Especially me, I love my McGangbangs (McChicken placed in between a McDouble. Still very much a guilty pleasure of mine, no shame).

Plants are no different than humans; we need water, shade/shelter, and nourishment. Consistent water supply, and source of nourishment is what makes the difference, whether its plants or people.



As always, forgive the rant and all the best.

Click to expand...

McGangbang lol I always get a huge kick out of not knowing things lol wtf chicken patty bn a double you total pig I love it!

Star Dog said:

Yes they only get watered via the saucer, I'll snap a few pics of the trusses next time I'm round.

Click to expand...

They drink so fast that its probably always fresh water in it.

I work to water in increments where I quickly (2 waterings) know how much they use. I water and try to almost never have much runoff. Once every month I will intentionally water enough to insure slight runoff.

I find so many rules tiring and dispiriting. I get it could be more alive or "best" but I only want to get to harvest and recycle it. I dont care about worrying if it's perfect. Outdoors plants do great with minimal fuss and worries about minor details. For example not using fabric pots is a preference but imo its nuts to say it doesnt work right.

ComfortCreator said:

I work to water in increments where I quickly (2 waterings) know how much they use. I water and try to almost never have much runoff. Once every month I will intentionally water enough to insure slight runoff.

I find so many rules tiring and dispiriting. I get it could be more alive or "best" but I only want to get to harvest and recycle it. I dont care about worrying if it's perfect. Outdoors plants do great with minimal fuss and worries about minor details. For example not using fabric pots is a preference but imo its nuts to say it doesnt work right.

Click to expand...

Almost anything works. If your goal
Is growing a plant and your happy with the results.

Thinking about limiting growth factors is always a good idea though.
Or getting closer to plant potential. Every aspect of a grow does make slight differences.

BlandMeow said:

That was a great rant and explanation of salt buildup. I thought it was always from using synthetic fertilizer vs organic amendments, but it is more to do with the strength.

Click to expand...

Correct, but the strength is also related to both how much the plant and substrate are capable of absorbing. This is why using "lighter" ingredients is favorable, because it minimizes the risk of anything being left over that the plant and substrate could not absorb.

Ultimately, the ingredients used aren't necessarily important (to an extent of course). What's important is cultivating a soil web, not necessarily if someone does or doesn't use guano/etc.

ComfortCreator said:

McGangbang lol I always get a huge kick out of not knowing things lol wtf chicken patty bn a double you total pig I love it!

Click to expand...

You think that's crazy? There's a Land, Air, and Sea burger that is a McGangbang and putting a Filet of Fish in it too. Won't lie, I made it once lol