When pseudoscience harms

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
The quackery-related death of a 17-month-old girl has sent shock waves across Canada. No one aspect of the story is unusual. The scenario is a classic combination of cultural vulnerability, modern urban mythology and quackery.

The Victim:
Dead from malnutrition and pneumonia is Lorie Atikian. Eight months before her death on September 25, 1987, Lorie was a perfectly healthy baby. When she died she was nearly bald, covered with deep red rashes, and so emaciated that the paramedics thought they were being tricked by being given a doll to treat.

The Parents:
Lorie's parents Sonia, 38, and Khochadour, 54, are emigres from Lebanon and Syria. In addition to Lorie, the couple has two teenaged children. Like many people these days the Atikian's were concerned about modern food additives, pesticide residues, and drugs. Their cultural background may have made them a bit more vulnerable, but like most people they held positive attitudes toward "natural" food and medicine. Sonia became enamored with Gerhard Hanswille, an "herbologist."

The Promise:
Hanswille's compelling vision of natural health made a convert of Sonia. When she became pregnant with Lorie in 1985 Hanswille convinced her to remain "pure" for the sake of the child. She testified that Hanswille promised to make Lorie a super baby. "That baby is going to be very different. Its going to develop without chemicals. Its going to be strong and pure...it going to be very special." Hanswille convinced Sonia that vaccinations would "poison" her child, and that ultrasound examination would damage an unborn baby's brain.

The Regimen:
Hanswille advocated an organic, vegetarian diet. He sold the Atikians a special juicer for $400 alleging that their own juicer "burned the nutrition" out of fruits. Among the special products the Atikians purchased from Hanswille were a bottle of baby oil that cost $16, a bar of soap costing $7.40, and a 3 kg box of laundry detergent that cost $35.99.

When Lorie became ill she was treated with royal jelly, "cell salts" (homeopathy), and an herbal concoction brewed by Hanswille. He also treated Lorie with an electromagnetic "vitalizing" machine that "stimulates the blood" and has attachments such as an electrified comb that "livens up the hair." Sonia Atikian testified that they became very concerned about Lorie's condition but that Hanswille assured them that it was normal for clumps of her baby's hair to fall out and not to worry if Lorie didn't gain weight. Hanswille told Sonia that taking Lorie to a hospital would be like "holding a loaded gun to Lorie's head and pulling the trigger."

How Unusual Is This Case?

The sad story of the death of little Lorie Atikian received national coverage in Canada by the Toronto Star (5/10-6/13) and The Globe and Mail. It is the kind of story that elicits harsh blame of the parents for their gullibility. "How could they have been so foolish?" is the usual response. The reality is that most of the public is sympathetic to the underlying assumptions that condemn modern food, commercial agriculture and extol "natural" medicine. The herbal industry is trying to distance itself from Hanswille by saying that the case is "not typical." However, we believe that what Hanswille told the Atikians is not only widely believed by health food and natural (herbal) medicine ilk; it largely represents the philosophy that is used to justify the existence of "alternative" medicine and herbalism.



The above was taken from The National Center Against Health Fraud

This story represents faith in a man and faith in an ideology. The parents had every reason to doubt, yet proceeded anyway because of their faith. You may think that it is unfair to call this faith, or that the parents were victims of a con man. This is true faith without the window dressings of religion. Faith masquerades as many things, but this is what it looks like naked. Faith is wishful thinking. Con men use faith as a staple of their cons. It's used not only to exploit, but to defend. It's no coincidence that many of the con man's tricks have their counterparts in religion.

You may even agree with some of these ideas. Do you feel 'chemicals' are dangerous? Do you feel organic food is healthier? Are you concerned about pesticides and preservatives? Then I guess you agree with at least some of the ideology behind this, and your real problem with these parents was the extent of their faith.

Faith greases the wheels of pseudoscience and lends itself perfectly to deceit. Perfect faith is perfect delusion.
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Great post, Heis. A few years ago, I was very taken in by alternative medicine, mainly by Kevin Trudeau's tripe. There is a chink in my critical thinking armor, I have an irrational mistrust of the concept of external authority: anyone outside of myself that knows better how I should live. I've also had a history of bad luck with MDs, DDSs, etc.. So I'm more susceptible than most when it comes to conspiracy theories, gov't cover-ups and the like. At the time I fell under Trudeau's spell, I was just coming off a bout of recurring ear infections that a few MDs couldn't do much about. When I started down a 'natural' path and alternative medicine, my infections cleared up quickly. I now know that my reasoning was non-sequitur, i.e. I have a cold, I take vitamin C, therefore vitamin C cures colds. I would only buy organic or natural foods and meats, much to the dismay of my wallet. I thought organic was much more nutritious, safer and didn't use any pesticides. I was surprise to find out how wrong this was. I had a lot of faith in one man and an industry that was all too happy to sell me things. With our biases and weaknesses of logic and reasoning in certain areas, It's easy to get seduced by misinformation that fits into these chinks. One must stay vigilant ;)
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Two words.

Quantum Mysticism....

I know a guy that claims that 'science' "knows nothing" because of the observer effect. Basically, his reasoning is that no tests are reliable because the act of testing changes the results.

For example, if you check the air pressure of the tires on your car, you've actually had to let air out to check, therefore changing the results of the data, meaning the pressure before testing has to be greater than the tested pressure. He attempts to delve into these diatribes about the slit experiment, where the behaviour of light changes depending on if it's being observed or not. He then somehow tries to explain this in terms of human consciousness affecting normal everyday things

He takes this to the extreme and denies all sorts of legitimate tests, claims reptilian people exist, listens to some gentleman named Bashar who claims to be an interdenominational being, believes he can travel on the astral plane, believes he is psychic, believes in palm reading, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

I'm very concerned that he has the potential to father children and perpetuate the idiocy.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Two words.

Quantum Mysticism....

I know a guy that claims that 'science' "knows nothing" because of the observer effect. Basically, his reasoning is that no tests are reliable because the act of testing changes the results.

For example, if you check the air pressure of the tires on your car, you've actually had to let air out to check, therefore changing the results of the data, meaning the pressure before testing has to be greater than the tested pressure. He attempts to delve into these diatribes about the slit experiment, where the behaviour of light changes depending on if it's being observed or not. He then somehow tries to explain this in terms of human consciousness affecting normal everyday things

He takes this to the extreme and denies all sorts of legitimate tests, claims reptilian people exist, listens to some gentleman named Bashar who claims to be an interdenominational being, believes he can travel on the astral plane, believes he is psychic, believes in palm reading, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

I'm very concerned that he has the potential to father children and perpetuate the idiocy.
I just had the most inappropriate vision of Schrödinger's [Wife's] Ovum. cn
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Two words.

Quantum Mysticism....

I know a guy that claims that 'science' "knows nothing" because of the observer effect. Basically, his reasoning is that no tests are reliable because the act of testing changes the results.

For example, if you check the air pressure of the tires on your car, you've actually had to let air out to check, therefore changing the results of the data, meaning the pressure before testing has to be greater than the tested pressure. He attempts to delve into these diatribes about the slit experiment, where the behaviour of light changes depending on if it's being observed or not. He then somehow tries to explain this in terms of human consciousness affecting normal everyday things

He takes this to the extreme and denies all sorts of legitimate tests, claims reptilian people exist, listens to some gentleman named Bashar who claims to be an interdenominational being, believes he can travel on the astral plane, believes he is psychic, believes in palm reading, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

I'm very concerned that he has the potential to father children and perpetuate the idiocy.
Sounds like a protege of Chopra. He's another guy that likes to throw around terms of science like non-locality and quantum healing. He uses these terms literally until someone calls him on it, then he says it's just metaphor. The Profit, indeed...
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Sounds like a protege of Chopra. He's another guy that likes to throw around terms of science like non-locality and quantum healing. He uses these terms literally until someone calls him on it, then he says it's just metaphor. The Profit, indeed...
I like the clip where Physicist Leonard Mlodinow is speaking with Chopra, and Chopra asks his for some instruction with his 'quantum terminoology' and Mlodinow agrees to tutor him, but only if the conversation is 'local', not 'non-local'.

Hilarity ensues! :D
 

H R Puff N Stuff

Well-Known Member
if i were to choose from a pool of people to goto war or any other extreme situation i would like to choose from the entire pool not limit myself to just males unless my task was tug of war then i see your point
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Great post, Heis. A few years ago, I was very taken in by alternative medicine, mainly by Kevin Trudeau's tripe. There is a chink in my critical thinking armor, I have an irrational mistrust of the concept of external authority: anyone outside of myself that knows better how I should live. I've also had a history of bad luck with MDs, DDSs, etc.. So I'm more susceptible than most when it comes to conspiracy theories, gov't cover-ups and the like. At the time I fell under Trudeau's spell, I was just coming off a bout of recurring ear infections that a few MDs couldn't do much about. When I started down a 'natural' path and alternative medicine, my infections cleared up quickly. I now know that my reasoning was non-sequitur, i.e. I have a cold, I take vitamin C, therefore vitamin C cures colds. I would only buy organic or natural foods and meats, much to the dismay of my wallet. I thought organic was much more nutritious, safer and didn't use any pesticides. I was surprise to find out how wrong this was. I had a lot of faith in one man and an industry that was all too happy to sell me things. With our biases and weaknesses of logic and reasoning in certain areas, It's easy to get seduced by misinformation that fits into these chinks. One must stay vigilant ;)
What was it that made you realize the marketing scheme?
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Two words.

Quantum Mysticism....

I know a guy that claims that 'science' "knows nothing" because of the observer effect. Basically, his reasoning is that no tests are reliable because the act of testing changes the results.

For example, if you check the air pressure of the tires on your car, you've actually had to let air out to check, therefore changing the results of the data, meaning the pressure before testing has to be greater than the tested pressure. He attempts to delve into these diatribes about the slit experiment, where the behaviour of light changes depending on if it's being observed or not. He then somehow tries to explain this in terms of human consciousness affecting normal everyday things

He takes this to the extreme and denies all sorts of legitimate tests, claims reptilian people exist, listens to some gentleman named Bashar who claims to be an interdenominational being, believes he can travel on the astral plane, believes he is psychic, believes in palm reading, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

I'm very concerned that he has the potential to father children and perpetuate the idiocy.
I have a friend like this as well. He believes the zombie virus is loose in Florida. He thinks colloidal silver cures aids. I have never let him know I am a skeptic. It would only amount to pointless conversation while I am usually looking to end our exchanges asap.
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
What was it that made you realize the marketing scheme?
I was a fan of Trudeau early after purchasing a course entitled 'Mega Memory'. It really was an amazing little system, if for no other reason than I've won literally thousands of dollars worth of bar bets with it: I would bet someone that I could remember any 100 words they said aloud to me; if they gave me the word, I could tell them the number, and perhaps more impressively, vice versa. You know, the first slap in the head was that Trudeau was endorsing Scientology. He explained that he wasn't into it personally, but 'whatever works.' What? Whatever works? I don't want to be one of those people, I've always wanted to know what's really going on. I started following up on more of his claims, like the miraculous benefits of organic food. No pesticides? Sometimes. More nutritious? 0 evidence. Better tasting? Penn & Teller did a BS where they do a blind taste test at a famous organic farmer's market. The hippies chose conventional over the organic most of the time. The distance the fruits & vegetables have to travel and the time spent in storage have a lot more to do with the quality of produce than the method by which they're grown. I could get into the body magnets, h202 therapy, and various cleanses I purchased, but I'm too embarrassed ;) Almost no claim he made was confirmed by any credible source, so it wasn't too hard (barring the hurt pride) to abandon those unsupportable beliefs...
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I was a fan of Trudeau early after purchasing a course entitled 'Mega Memory'. It really was an amazing little system, if for no other reason than I've won literally thousands of dollars worth of bar bets with it: I would bet someone that I could remember any 100 words they said aloud to me; if they gave me the word, I could tell them the number, and perhaps more impressively, vice versa. You know, the first slap in the head was that Trudeau was endorsing Scientology. He explained that he wasn't into it personally, but 'whatever works.' What? Whatever works? I don't want to be one of those people, I've always wanted to know what's really going on. I started following up on more of his claims, like the miraculous benefits of organic food. No pesticides? Sometimes. More nutritious? 0 evidence. Better tasting? Penn & Teller did a BS where they do a blind taste test at a famous organic farmer's market. The hippies chose conventional over the organic most of the time. The distance the fruits & vegetables have to travel and the time spent in storage have a lot more to do with the quality of produce than the method by which they're grown. I could get into the body magnets, h202 therapy, and various cleanses I purchased, but I'm too embarrassed ;) Almost no claim he made was confirmed by any credible source, so it wasn't too hard (barring the hurt pride) to abandon those unsupportable beliefs...
Trudeau ranks right up there with Silvia Browne and Peter Popoff in the douche category. I believe he is banned from making informationals for anything other than books these days, since you can't ban speech. He has been fined and sued numerous times, but those penalties are a drop in the bucket compared to what he rakes in. Same is true for any of them, and these are three people that must know what they are doing. They are not self deceiving. They are knowingly manipulating people's wishful thinking.
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Trudeau ranks right up there with Silvia Browne and Peter Popoff in the douche category. I believe he is banned from making informationals for anything other than books these days, since you can't ban speech. He has been fined and sued numerous times, but those penalties are a drop in the bucket compared to what he rakes in. Same is true for any of them, and these are three people that must know what they are doing. They are not self deceiving. They are knowingly manipulating people's wishful thinking.
Wish you were there to tell me this 8 years ago. By the by, your new avatar makes me think twice before I answer ;)
 

ctwalrus

Active Member
it appears as if beardo is trying to get banned...


on the subject at hand...
overpopulation makes this problem irreversible and unstoppable.
 

BustinScales510

Well-Known Member
Ooooooh controversial. A GG Allin picture from the Reagan era..better not put that on an album cover or you might get Tipper Gore all upset.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
This isn't about harm directly, but since homeopathy was brought up.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1807-fda-ensures-magic-rituals-are-done-properly.html

The FDA looked at a large homeopathic company and found,

"b. The investigator also observed for Batch #36659 that one out of every six bottles did not receive the dose of active homeopathic drug solution due to the wobbling and vibration of the bottle assembly during filling of the active ingredient. The active ingredient was instead seen dripping down the outside of the vial assembly. Your firm lacked controls to ensure that the active ingredient is delivered to every bottle."

"c. The dosing process has not been validated appropriately. Specifically, your surrogate validation study, “Medication of un-medicated pillules with (b)(4),” visually demonstrates the variability of the amount of (b)(4) for the pillules in one vial. Your firm lacks control of the variation for the amount of the active ingredient in the pillules."

So for who knows how long these homeopathic vials and pills were not getting a regulated balanced dose of active ingredient, and 1 out of every 6 was getting no active ingredient at all. Yet not one practitioner or patient noticed. If these were actual medicinal drugs, like antibiotics, how quick do you suppose users would notice?

Homeopathy is wishful thinking
 
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