Who is this woman, what did she know, and how did she know it?
- Thread starter ViRedd
- Start date
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
You miss that there was a serious issue with low income loans not being given in the cities to people that could afford them but had no capital. And if you search those were not the loans that went south until far after the crash happened.
See you should learn that on the back of those changes the shadow banking system figured out the loophole and jumped on all the new loans (Again look up quick loans, these are the guys that started this (the douche was the guy that made the movie "Redline"), to be packaged and sold in securities to wall street, it was not the Mac banks fault that this other industry was not being responsible.
The burst happened in the suburbs and places like california and flordia, not in poor downtown neighborhoods.
You seriously think that they would have this affect? You think that wallstreet was sucking up all those $60k mortgages and that is what hit the economy? No it was all the bad loan behavior of the shadow banks, and later the larger banks that saw the insane profit that was being made. The quick loans, quicken loans, all the 2nd mortgages, credit card companies, they are who strapped america's wallet. And what sucked is they inflated it so fast that it took a few years for the full effect to take place.
The fact you swallowed the lie hook line and sinker that the Mac's did this and the liberals in the senate are somehow to blame when it is just the fact that the things they did that would have helped out the cities by having good stable homes bought by the people that lived there, got twisted by the people that saw huge profit between them and wallstreet, is I guess par for the course.
Dragline
Well-Known Member
Speaking of gullible. Anyone who believe one sole party was responsible for this is the epitome of gullible. Can Democrats be blamed for this crisis? You bet your ass they can! But to blame Democrats solely just means you are better at practicing GOP loyalty than common sense.
Really!?!?
Excerts from a speach President Bush made to St Paul AME Church in Atlanta June 17, 2002.
"...Now, we've got a problem here in America that we have to address. Too many American families, too many minorities do not own a home. There is a home ownership gap in America. The difference between Anglo America and African American and Hispanic home ownership is too big. (Applause.) And we've got to focus the attention on this nation to address this.
And it starts with setting a goal. And so by the year 2010, we must increase minority home owners by at least 5.5 million. In order to close the homeownership gap, we've got to set a big goal for America, and focus our attention and resources on that goal. (Applause.)
And so here are some of the ways to address the issue. First, the single greatest barrier to first time homeownership is a high downpayment. It is really hard for many, many, low income families to make the high downpayment. And so that's why I propose and urge Congress to fully fund the American Dream Downpayment Fund. This will use money, taxpayers' money to help a qualified, low income buyer make a downpayment. And that's important."
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/housing/2004-01-20-fha_x.htm
1/20/2004
In a bid to boost minority homeownership, President Bush will ask Congress for authority to eliminate the down-payment requirement for Federal Housing Administration loans
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
I am a Conservative.
I am not a Republican.
If only I could be a Republican. But they knocked the Republic out of Republican a long time ago.
Now they are the party of Big Government, the War on Drugs, the Pro-Life Movement, Anti-Gay bigotry, and the Moral Majority. I stopped being a party member sometime between 1994 and 1996. 1992 was the last party primary in which I voted.
But, in this particular case, I am perfectly capable calling a spade a spade.
You are confusing corporatism with free market capitalism. In free market capitalism you do not have oligarchical figureheads setting prices and manipulating interest rates.
Dragline
Well-Known Member
You claim not to be just another fair weather conservative (aka Republican) and I won't question your integrity. But I still think you are wrong to blame this solely on Democrats though. I feel ignoring both parties contributions to this debacle is as bad as ignoring the problem itself.
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
If you have any notion I am Republican, fair weather or otherwise, you have not been paying attention.
There are Conservative Democrats, too.
We appear to be talking past one another.
In the big picture we are all to blame because we allowed this to happen by re-electing the same bums time and again.
Both major parties are corrupt; and intent on acquiring and maintaining power.
And the entire financial crisis cannot be laid at the feet of one particular party.
I am speaking only to the particular component involving the housing bubble and collapse, which in turn had dire implications on the economy. Had the economy been resilient enough at the time, perhaps it could have withstood the housing crisis.
abe23
Active Member
Maybe but the same principles apply to any 'free market'. I'm actually very much in favor of markets but believe there needs to be a minimum of smart regulation to prevent certain abuses and a limited public sector to provide certain public goods.You are confusing corporatism with free market capitalism. In free market capitalism you do not have oligarchical figureheads setting prices and manipulating interest rates.
Again, Alan Greenspan also believed that the market would take care of everything including fraud and abuse. He was a huge ayn rand fan, including when he ran teh federal reserve. Now he admits that was naive....
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/?utm_campaign=viewpage&utm_medium=grid&utm_source=grid
Watch this documentary. The scary part is that summers and rubin are now back in the saddle...I'm just hoping they learned something.
Of course both parties share blame for the crisis in their own way. But if after the whole mess we went through last year and the shitty economy we are still experiencing, your conclusion is that we need LESS regulation of financial market then you might be smoking a little too much weed. Ayn rand is just as much of an ideologue as marx, yet some of you believe this stuff despite every shred of logic and evidence...
I will definitely check out the vid later.
Agreed, the problem with regulation is the bad regulation. Which sounds funny but too often our Congress people don't look out for us. Like regulation curtailing free markets. Part of E R I S A says certain insured individuals cannot sue for more than the cost of the denied claim. So of course insurers are gonna deny a claim when the most they can loose is the amount they would have paid anyway.
"Again, Alan Greenspan also believed that the market would take care of everything including fraud and abuse." ------ I'll look for this in the clip as well as which market or economic condition he was talking about mainly because I cannot think of the free market condition he refers to offhand. Government causes problem, government tries to fix problem, is how it usually goes.
Here we go again with the Rand stuff.
Ayn Rand is not the only Libertarian thinker there is.
She was a bit on the harsh side, not even condoning charity. (to my recollection)
I know its the cool thing to do,
but don't think for a minute this finacial mess was caused by free markets.
The Government had its hands in this mess from the begining.
They found a way to make it profitable for banks to do things they wouldn't normaly do.
The banks and public got drunk on cheap money. (And I'm sure a lot of behind the scenes promices if anything went wrong)
IMO you can not have a real free market and central banking the two can not co-exist.
You can not have a free market if companies are allowed to be "Bailed out."
You can not have a free market without some form of sound money.
Ayn Rand is not the only Libertarian thinker there is.
She was a bit on the harsh side, not even condoning charity. (to my recollection)
I know its the cool thing to do,
but don't think for a minute this finacial mess was caused by free markets.
The Government had its hands in this mess from the begining.
They found a way to make it profitable for banks to do things they wouldn't normaly do.
The banks and public got drunk on cheap money. (And I'm sure a lot of behind the scenes promices if anything went wrong)
IMO you can not have a real free market and central banking the two can not co-exist.
You can not have a free market if companies are allowed to be "Bailed out."
You can not have a free market without some form of sound money.
hanimmal
Well-Known Member
You gotta give it to the republicans here though, they do love their writers.
From her, to the upsurge of illuminutty after Dan Brown's book, the fact that on climate change they brought in Michael Crichton for their 'expert witness' because of his (very good book imo, with good anti global warming vibe) book Next? I am not sure which it is atm without reading the covers.
Now all we need is for Steven King to do something on terrorism and they will be all set.
From her, to the upsurge of illuminutty after Dan Brown's book, the fact that on climate change they brought in Michael Crichton for their 'expert witness' because of his (very good book imo, with good anti global warming vibe) book Next? I am not sure which it is atm without reading the covers.
Now all we need is for Steven King to do something on terrorism and they will be all set.
abe23
Active Member
Here's the clip your looking for; watch it, it's only 2 minutes. "Oct 23, 2008 Now He Tells Us!"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/cron/
What happened last year discredits ayn rand's 'principles' the same way that the soviet union, eastern europe and cuba still today discredit communism and marx...
But some people will continue to reflexively blame government and regulation for everything, evidence and common sense be damned! I'm looking at you, ayn rand fans.
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
And some people who have a knee-jerk negative reaction to the mere mention of Ayn Rand's name have never bothered to read her work.
I can say with utter certainty that Laissez Faire capitalism played no part in the Economic downturn. Government has their nose in EVERYONES business. Laissez Faire would indicate that government is completely missing from the equation, but we all know that isn't the case at all.
Greenspan only fought for the lifting of the Glass Steagal rules so that the banks could over leverage themselves, all the while knowing that they would receive public assistance if their trades went bad. And that is exactly what happened. Funny thing was how Goldman Sachs was able to insure a large amount of their bad trades with AIG. AIG has a blank check in which to reimburse Goldman for every bad decision it ever made.
ViRedd
New Member
abe23
Active Member
Guilty as charged. I've only actually read an introduction and a few chapters from one of her books for a required course at university that I didn't really care for. And I have very little interest in political theory/philosophy to begin with.
But I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have a knee-jerk reaction to the mere mention of karl marx without having bothered to read much of his work either. Then again, you're probably familiar enough with the basic idea to be able to have a discussion without having to have read das kapital or the communist manifesto...
Wavels
Well-Known Member
Outstanding and quite valid.
Rand's objectivist philosophy may not be perfect, but I am unaware of a superior belief system.
Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged snapped me out of my then liberal perceptions of reality. I became a better (more successful) person from having read that brilliant novel!
Thank you Ayn!
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
Abe, I was not singling anyone out. I merely stated it applied to some people who have that very curious reaction to Ayn Rand.
But your statement was specific to me. Not only did you go out on a limb, you were kind enough to bring along a saw.
I read both Capital and The Communist Manifesto in college. It was for an upper-level course called History of Economics, if I remember correctly. It has been a long time, but I read them.
And I do not recall even so much as mentioning Marx in this thread, much less having a knee-jerk reaction to him.
But the topic of this thread is not Marx now is it?
abe23
Active Member
Oops, I accidently hijacked the thread. My bad....Abe, I was not singling anyone out. I merely stated it applied to some people who have that very curious reaction to Ayn Rand.
But your statement was specific to me. Not only did you go out on a limb, you were kind enough to bring along a saw.
I read both Capital and The Communist Manifesto in college. It was for an upper-level course called History of Economics, if I remember correctly. It has been a long time, but I read them.
And I do not recall even so much as mentioning Marx in this thread, much less having a knee-jerk reaction to him.
But the topic of this thread is not Marx now is it?
Earlier, I was making the point that ayn rand was an ideologue just like marx whose ideas have lost their credibility because of how that ideology plays out in the real world....just like marx.