Who wants bigger gov't??? Please help me understand liberals.

ancap

Active Member
If private sector took over the library they would charge you to enter it...then charge you to "rent" the book...Cracker are you really that dumb:dunce:..or are you just really old...I can forgive you if you are an old senile man
When you call other people dumb in a debate, you really expose yourself to immense ridicule when your subsequent statement is the one that is truly "dumb".

We are currently being charged to rent books from the library. In fact, we are being charged to rent the books even if we never walk into a library. Furthermore, if you refuse to pay for the book rentals that you never rented, you will be arrested and locked behind bars like an animal. We are being charged far more by force than a business would charge through voluntarism.

Please don't start name calling on this forum. I'd rather engage in a civil debate than watch a bunch of children call each other names (children would be the only people continuing to debate in this kind of environment). Let's not drag down the quality of the discussion. Just an appeal to your good sense...
 
ancap said:
Governments really don't create anything. They either purchase or steal from the free market. Libraries have been around for thousands of years. The idea of having a repository is a very basic one. As the free market of ideas innovates new technology, our libraries improve. This has nothing to do with the government.
I didnt say government invented libraries, just that they pioneered the idea of making information equally available to both the rich and the poor. This allows all citizens to benefit from that knowledge if they choose to do so- with no immediate negative effect(cost) for making that choice. The result is(was) a population that is better educated than it would have been otherwise. This would not be possible in private industry.

The fact that libraries are now antiquated is due to the fact that technology has improved and libraries have not kept up. The internet(govt invention) has revolutionized the way we seek information.

The present situation surrounding libraries does not change the fact that public libraries were a great idea when first introduced. Times change. Its up to US to push our politicians for policy change.
 

ancap

Active Member
Again, "governments" don't create anything. People create things. Government is just an abstract concept that defines a group of individuals that claim the moral right to exercise violent force against other people within a given territory. Without a government, libraries would exist if there was enough of a consumer demand for them (homeless don't count). If there was no demand, then there would be no libraries. Likewise, if there was no demand, then we wouldn't need libraries.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
When you call other people dumb in a debate, you really expose yourself to immense ridicule when your subsequent statement is the one that is truly "dumb".

We are currently being charged to rent books from the library. In fact, we are being charged to rent the books even if we never walk into a library. Furthermore, if you refuse to pay for the book rentals that you never rented, you will be arrested and locked behind bars like an animal. We are being charged far more by force than a business would charge through voluntarism.

Please don't start name calling on this forum. I'd rather engage in a civil debate than watch a bunch of children call each other names (children would be the only people continuing to debate in this kind of environment). Let's not drag down the quality of the discussion. Just an appeal to your good sense...
first off go find your child to tell what to do..second the question was asked what does the government run that the private sector could do better..one of my answers would be the library..now I might pay taxes for my library to operate, but that's fine with me, but I guarantee that the private sector in no way could run the libray and charge me less then what I pay now ( and guess what homeless people can go in the library and they don't pay shit)...and why would you have to pay for books you never rented and then go to jail..what screwed up town you live in...and last if I call you dumb don't take it personal..its just like me saying ..you are very :dunce: :dunce: what when you see the little picture it makes it better..Dude this the damn internet get over it..don't take it personal..someone calling your statement dumb or your acts dumb..don't make you dumb ( or does it ???? )
 

CrackerJax

New Member
:lol: They end up as their SELLING point of the Govt. wanting to take over our health care as ....... DRUM ROLL ....... the Library!!!

:lol:

Why don't we just look at the fantastic programs of SS, Medicare, & Medicaid?

Why don't you folks just wise up? You're defending a FARCE.

Now the politicians KNOW it's a frace, but they have an excuse.... they will PROFIT by it's implementation.

But you folks.... you are the true stooges.
 
Now imagine government enters the picture and says, "This water is no good!"
If the water is truly no good then this should not be an issue.
If the water is fine, then VOTERS should band together and PROVE the water is fine.
If ANYONE can prove it, I assure you the "water companies" will.
In my mind the issue is not whether govt has the right to determine if our water is safe- its whether the water is truly safe or not.
The govt is US. WE DO HAVE the power to sway govt decisions...
If your opinion is in the minority, VOICE IT STILL... but dont undermine the legitimacy of society's right to decide.

If a company is willing to take the risk to insure you against the possibility of becomming ill and the associated costs, and someone is willing to pay for that service, who are you to use the power of the government to stop both parties from making that voluntary transaction? Your involvement in my private transaction seems rather tyrannical to me.
Allow me to explain...

Insurance companies have shareholders. Shareholders put money at risk by buying shares in said company.
As long as there is growth in earnings, the shareholder is happy.

However, once the market is saturated with insurance (everybody who is going to buy it has it)...
the only way to achive growth is to RAISE PREMIUMS.

This is (part of)what is happening in the health insurance industry.
This is what is happening in the home insurance industry.

Last year my home lost 50% of its value, yet my insurance premiums went up 50%
I have never filed a claim. In fact, I dont think I would even if something happened- just for fear of rates increasing.

How is this not a racket?

A Ponzi scheme involves two willing parties. Do you think they should be legal too?
 

ancap

Active Member
first off go find your child to tell what to do..second the question was asked what does the government run that the private sector could do better..one of my answers would be the library..now I might pay taxes for my library to operate, but that's fine with me, but I guarantee that the private sector in no way could run the libray and charge me less then what I pay now ( and guess what homeless people can go in the library and they don't pay shit)...and why would you have to pay for books you never rented and then go to jail..what screwed up town you live in...and last if I call you dumb don't take it personal..its just like me saying ..you are very :dunce: :dunce: what when you see the little picture it makes it better..Dude this the damn internet get over it..don't take it personal..someone calling your statement dumb or your acts dumb..don't make you dumb ( or does it ???? )
Ok, thanks for the clarification. By asking CrackerJax if he was dumb and/or senile, I didn't realize you were just impersonally critizing his objections.

I'm afraid to ask you how old you are londonfog, because I'm afraid the answer will either be revealing or sad. :sad:
 

ancap

Active Member
If the water is truly no good then this should not be an issue.
If the water is fine, then VOTERS should band together and PROVE the water is fine.
If ANYONE can prove it, I assure you the "water companies" will.
In my mind the issue is not whether govt has the right to determine if our water is safe- its whether the water is truly safe or not.
The govt is US. WE DO HAVE the power to sway govt decisions...
If your opinion is in the minority, VOICE IT STILL... but dont undermine the legitimacy of society's right to decide.
In a free society, no "water company" will continue to exist that produces a product that people do not want. It just will not happen. That's not my opinion, that is economic fact.



Allow me to explain...

Insurance companies have shareholders. Shareholders put money at risk by buying shares in said company.
As long as there is growth in earnings, the shareholder is happy.

However, once the market is saturated with insurance (everybody who is going to buy it has it)...
the only way to achive growth is to RAISE PREMIUMS.
If you are claiming this is a free market, please tell me what economic mechanism these companies are using to raise their premiums without consequence. Just digging for a further explanation.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
If the water is truly no good then this should not be an issue.
If the water is fine, then VOTERS should band together and PROVE the water is fine.
If ANYONE can prove it, I assure you the "water companies" will.
In my mind the issue is not whether govt has the right to determine if our water is safe- its whether the water is truly safe or not.
The govt is US. WE DO HAVE the power to sway govt decisions...
If your opinion is in the minority, VOICE IT STILL... but dont undermine the legitimacy of society's right to decide.



Allow me to explain...

Insurance companies have shareholders. Shareholders put money at risk by buying shares in said company.
As long as there is growth in earnings, the shareholder is happy.

However, once the market is saturated with insurance (everybody who is going to buy it has it)...
the only way to achive growth is to RAISE PREMIUMS.

This is (part of)what is happening in the health insurance industry.
This is what is happening in the home insurance industry.

Last year my home lost 50% of its value, yet my insurance premiums went up 50%
I have never filed a claim. In fact, I dont think I would even if something happened- just for fear of rates increasing.

How is this not a racket?

A Ponzi scheme involves two willing parties. Do you think they should be legal too?
Social Security is a legal, government run ponzi scheme.
 
In a free society, no "water company" will continue to exist that produces a product that people do not want. It just will not happen. That's not my opinion, that is economic fact.
Its not like the water company would send out a memo telling everyone that the water quality is being reduced. If they can improve their bottom line by reducing water quality, they will. 99% of the time consumers will not notice or will be to preoccupied to care. Do you wait until people start getting sick or die, or do you establish reasonable standards and enforce them?

If the standard is wrong or unreasonable... FIX IT.
Dont leave the water companies to do as they will. They will try to subtly subvert the will of the consumer until they have a monopoly on water. THEN the quality REALLY goes to hell!




If you are claiming this is a free market, please tell me what economic mechanism these companies are using to raise their premiums without consequence. Just digging for a further explanation.
Unless you own your home outright (not many do), you are REQUIRED by terms in your mortgage to maintain insurance on your house. This is due to the fact that the house is collateral for the mortgage.

Unfortunately, all insurance companies face the same situation of a saturated market, so competition is ineffective at lowering premiums.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
Ok, thanks for the clarification. By asking CrackerJax if he was dumb and/or senile, I didn't realize you were just impersonally critizing his objections.

I'm afraid to ask you how old you are londonfog, because I'm afraid the answer will either be revealing or sad. :sad:
Crackere and I have a love / hate relationship..I love to hate his post..and his to mine.....I think Cracker is grown and can defend himself so you should not try to be the internet police........You seem to take this internet pretty darn serious may I suggest another hobby...growing cannabis is a excellent hobby..A lot of people do that here as well...
 
Social Security is a legal, government run ponzi scheme.
Yes, but the hypothetical profits (if there were any) would belong to taxpayers, NOT just shareholders in the insurance company.

This is like saying taxpayers are running a ponzi scheme on taxpayers.... and has nothing to do with private industry running a ponzi scheme on the masses
 

ancap

Active Member
Crackere and I have a love / hate relationship..I love to hate his post..and his to mine.....I think Cracker is grown and can defend himself so you should not try to be the internet police........You seem to take this internet pretty darn serious may I suggest another hobby...growing cannabis is a excellent hobby..A lot of people do that here as well...
I apologize if I mistook your playfulness with a friend for disrespect of other forum members. I wasn't so much defending CrackerJax as I was defending myself who happened to agree with the point he was making. By calling him stupid and senile for his view, you were lumping me and others into that category which sort of invited my comment. If you were just giving him a hard time, then I take back what I said. It just didn't come across that way.

Man, I have no problem fucking around on a political thread even when the discussion is serious. I just thought you were trying to be a douche bag.
 

ancap

Active Member
Its not like the water company would send out a memo telling everyone that the water quality is being reduced. If they can improve their bottom line by reducing water quality, they will. 99% of the time consumers will not notice or will be to preoccupied to care. Do you wait until people start getting sick or die, or do you establish reasonable standards and enforce them?
I think you and I can both agree that when it comes to dealing with corruption, there is only "the best" way to deal with it, not "the perfect" way to deal with it.

The best way to deal with this hypothetical water company reducing the quality of its water to the point of causing sickness and death is to properly incentivize the company to NOT harm their customers in the first place. I think this is a starting point we can probably both agree with. For me, the only way to accomplish this is to make the water company as directly accountable to their customers as possible. This means in order to put this predatory company out of business, their customers only have to give their business to another firm. No need to start a grass roots movement. No need to win political favor. No need to vote people out or into office. No need to picket or protest. All they do is stop doing business with that firm and the abuse stops overnight. For this reason, very few companies will try to abuse their customers. The risk to their wallets is too great (not to mention most people have a conscience).

Will some people get sick and die as a result of the abuse of a predatory firm? Unfortunately yes, but like we said before, there is only "the best" way to deal with a problem, not "the perfect" way. The alternative is to create an environment where the government steps in, reduces efficiency, raises costs and causes all sorts of greater indirect collateral damage to the consumer.

Do you realize how many have needlessly died as a result of delayed approvals from the FDA when private review by medical boards would allow our doctors to help us make our own decisions about the drugs we take? Regulation literally kills us in many circumstances.


Unless you own your home outright (not many do), you are REQUIRED by terms in your mortgage to maintain insurance on your house. This is due to the fact that the house is collateral for the mortgage.

Unfortunately, all insurance companies face the same situation of a saturated market, so competition is ineffective at lowering premiums.
I am fine with this type of "requirement" because it is part of a voluntary contract. Why is it that no other insurance firms have entered the marketplace and undercut the other players to steal enormous marketshare and get filthy rich? Why hasn't this happened like it would in any other industry? I think there is a very revealing answer...
 
very few companies will try to abuse their customers
I strongly disagree with this statement.

I think the consumer has become far too sheepish to realize when they're being duped.

Just a few examples:

Cell phone contracts. Until recently, all cell phone companies required you to sign a contract to obtain service. You were locked into a term and had to pay an outrageous cancellation fee if you went to a competitor. Most people got a subsidy on their handset for signing the contract- which makes sense... but
even if you paid full retail for the phone- you still had to sign the contract. You could not get service otherwise.

About 4-5 years ago motorola came out with a new phone called the v710. It was the top of the line phone- and the first phone Verizon carried that featured bluetooth. Now, being a tech-savvy customer, I was excited about the bluetooth features that would allow me to upload/download ringtones and pictures to/from my PC and other devices. I was already under contract, so I paid full retail price for the phone from the Verizon store ($550) only to take it home and realize that Verizon had intentionally nuetered it. They forced Motorola to ship them this phones with a custom firmware than disabled the bluetooth functions for transferring ringtones or pictures. They would not carry the phones if Motorola did not do this at thier request.
Why disable the features? So I would be forced to use thier messaging services at $.50 per picture message and $2 per ringtone.

I paid FULL RETAIL price for a phone and was ripped off. Most people who bought the phone there were not savvy enough to realize the phone hardware had features that are locked out intentionally to squeeze more money out of them. At the time (and maybe still, I dunno) Verizon would not under any circumstances activate a phone that did not come through their distribution channels. This meant that I could not even buy the phone from Motorola directly(or other carrier who didn't neuter v710) and activate on my phone number. At the time, I had been a Verizon customer for 5 years strong. My cell phone was (and still is) my primary number. To leave Verizon required that I would leave my number with them(this was before govt got involved and made them change that practice). I stayed with them until number portability went into effect- then flew like a bat outta hell!

I left Verizon, but here they still stand as still one of the most successful businesses today. I hate them with all my soul and will never go back. Were it not for government regulation, I would have had to change my primary phone number and potentially lose a lot of contacts.

Thank you, government! I recently heard that there was discussion about preventing phone companies from locking you into their handsets (so you could buy a handset anywhere and use on your account as long as the technology was compatible). This would allow cell phone manufacturers to compete directly with one another independent of the phone carrier's whims. I dont know the status of this but I hope this goes into effect.

GOVT REGULATION, FTW!

Why hasn't this happened like it would in any other industry? I think there is a very revealing answer...
Because insurance companies are suffering from the housing crash. Foreclosures are causing them to bleed customers so fast they HAVE TO raise rates and cant maintain earnings if they start slashing premiums. If you offer a better deal to the other guy's customer, eventually your customer will come asking for the same. They all know this and are not stupid.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
I strongly disagree with this statement.

I think the consumer has become far too sheepish to realize when they're being duped.

Just a few examples:

Cell phone contracts. Until recently, all cell phone companies required you to sign a contract to obtain service. You were locked into a term and had to pay an outrageous cancellation fee if you went to a competitor. Most people got a subsidy on their handset for signing the contract- which makes sense... but
even if you paid full retail for the phone- you still had to sign the contract.

About 4-5 years ago motorola came out with a new phone called the v710. It was the top of the line phone- and the first phone Verizon carried that featured bluetooth. Now, being a tech-savvy customer, I was excited about the bluetooth features that would allow me to upload/download ringtones and pictures to/from my PC and other devices. I was already under contract, so I paid full retail price for the phone from the Verizon store ($550) only to take it home and realize that Verizon had intentionally nuetered it. They forced Motorola to ship them this phones with a custom firmware than disabled the bluetooth functions for transferring ringtones or pictures. They would not carry the phones if Motorola did not do this at thier request.
Why disable the features? So I would be forced to use thier messaging services at $.50 per picture message and $2 per ringtone.

I paid FULL RETAIL price for a phone and was ripped off. Most people who bought the phone there were not savvy enough to realize the phone hardware had features that are locked out intentionally to squeeze more money out of them. I left Verizon, but here they stand as still one of the most successful businesses today. I hate them with all my soul.


Because insurance companies are suffering from the housing crash. Foreclosures are causing them to bleed customers so fast they HAVE TO raise rates and cant maintain earnings if they start slashing premiums. If you offer a better deal to the other guy's customer, eventually your customer will come asking for the same. They all know this and are not stupid.
Over and over we have examples of business exploitation of consumers in the name of quick profits. Too many to name in fact. Even heavily regulated industries are prone to the occasional unethical business practice. Greed is a much more powerful morivator than most of us realize. The role of government should be to keep an eye on private businesses not to run private businesses. The perversion and corruption of the political system today prevents real oversight on any industry with deep pockets and armies of lobbyists in Washington. Capitalism works but unfortunately our politicians have found a way to make it seem like it doesn't in an attempt to grab up more power. Stop corporate lobbying and private campaign contributions and maybe we can start to fix this mess and get back to some sanity in this country.
 
Please see edit above
Over and over we have examples of business exploitation of consumers in the name of quick profits. Too many to name in fact. Even heavily regulated industries are prone to the occasional unethical business practice. Greed is a much more powerful morivator than most of us realize. The role of government should be to keep an eye on private businesses not to run private businesses. The perversion and corruption of the political system today prevents real oversight on any industry with deep pockets and armies of lobbyists in Washington. Capitalism works but unfortunately our politicians have found a way to make it seem like it doesn't in an attempt to grab up more power. Stop corporate lobbying and private campaign contributions and maybe we can start to fix this mess and get back to some sanity in this country.
 

ancap

Active Member
I strongly disagree with this statement.

I think the consumer has become far too sheepish to realize when they're being duped.
I think our idea of abuse may be a little different, or at least the abuse I was referring to had to do with intentionally deceiving a customer about its core service or providing a service that was detrimental to the customer. I think companies will certainly attempt to maximize their profits by reducing the extraneous value added measures (such as water with a lemon twist, or sparkling water). I don't think this is abuse.


Cell phone contracts. Until recently, all cell phone companies required you to sign a contract to obtain service. You were locked into a term and had to pay an outrageous cancellation fee if you went to a competitor. Most people got a subsidy on their handset for signing the contract- which makes sense... but
even if you paid full retail for the phone- you still had to sign the contract.
Without being familiar with the industry (other than owning a phone), it seems that the market corrected itself and met consumer demand for month to month contracts, no?

About 4-5 years ago motorola came out with a new phone called the v710. It was the top of the line phone- and the first phone Verizon carried that featured bluetooth. Now, being a tech-savvy customer, I was excited about the bluetooth features that would allow me to upload/download ringtones and pictures to/from my PC and other devices. I was already under contract, so I paid full retail price for the phone from the Verizon store ($550) only to take it home and realize that Verizon had intentionally nuetered it. They forced Motorola to ship them this phones with a custom firmware than disabled the bluetooth functions for transferring ringtones or pictures. They would not carry the phones if Motorola did not do this at thier request.
Why disable the features? So I would be forced to use thier messaging services at $.50 per picture message and $2 per ringtone.

I paid FULL RETAIL price for a phone and was ripped off. Most people who bought the phone there were not savvy enough to realize the phone hardware had features that are locked out intentionally to squeeze more money out of them. I left Verizon, but here they stand as still one of the most successful businesses today. I hate them with all my soul.
Did Verison claim that the phone had the service you anticipated it having, or was that just an assumption on your part?


Because insurance companies are suffering from the housing crash. Foreclosures are causing them to bleed customers so fast they HAVE TO raise rates and cant maintain earnings if they start slashing premiums. If you offer a better deal to the other guy's customer, eventually your customer will come asking for the same. They all know this and are not stupid.
Are you saying that insurance premiums are being raised to secure higher profits, or are you saying that insurance premiums are being raised to compensate for increased costs in the industry?
 
Without being familiar with the industry (other than owning a phone), it seems that the market corrected itself and met consumer demand for month to month contracts, no?
Perhaps, but it took 15 years for a new competitor in the industry to come in and do this (metroPCS). Also, number portability was not achieved until govt intervened.

Did Verison claim that the phone had the service you anticipated it having, or was that just an assumption on your part?
They advertized it had "Bluetooth". Up until that point, advertising "bluetooth" was accepted to mean your phone supported the full range of bluetooth functions.
This was the first phone to ever to be limited to bluetooth voice capabilities.
Verizon also specifically linked you to Motorola's website; where the full range of features were being advertized.

Eventually, Verizon lost a class-action lawsuit for the v710. I got like $1.30 2 years later... for being ripped off on a $550 phone.

Are you saying that insurance premiums are being raised to secure higher profits, or are you saying that insurance premiums are being raised to compensate for increased costs in the industry?
To be specific, I'm saying that insurance companies are losing customers to forclosure
AND
The executives of these companies are under pressure to please shareholders
SO
To make up for the lost revenue, they are hiking up premiums


And no one wants to shit in the troth they all feed from by slashing premiums.
 
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