Why Buy from NonCup Winning Seed Companies

NevilleS.2013 said:

Dreamtime from mr nice seeds but grown and entered by an grower won a cup. Critical Mass also from mr nice seeds and grown by an grower has won many cups. There's reasons why I asked why y'all don't buy from cup winners. Mr nice seeds as a seed company hasn't never won a cup. But ppl have grown out their seeds and won cups. Funny how a company doesn't have to be on YouTube every other day showing off their genetics, while others go all out to get u to buy into something that its not. Have y'all ever wondered who'd win a cup if MNS was to come out of retirement.

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why are you all about mr, nice only? I get that they have good genetics and all, but so don't DJ Short, Chimera, Tom Hill, serious seeds, sensi seeds, etc. I also want to try out Mandella seeds the spanish breeder who actually uses landrace genetics to breed. Not sure About Spice Of Life breeder Steve left kootenay in charge but either way I just ordered blue satellite 2.2 from seedbay 3 packs for only $100, But if I where to grow out mr. nice exclusively I'd never grow a blue or purple strain no AK-47, NYC diesel, strawberry cough, Bubble Gum etc.

sure I like Mr. nice strains and majority of my seed stock comes from their but Shantibaba isn't the only person who knows how to breed so I can't just not try any other real breeders work sure I could be happy with just his shit but the gene pool is bigger then Mr. nice.

I do agree the pollen chuckers, fem breeders and hacks are not worth the time or the money though. Also you got Calli Connection and DNA winning cups left and right but imo there more then likely using the original clone-onlys to win the cups not there own hacks.

How many cup winners or other strains actually came from America or other locations by private breeders? Most of the best genetics came from another source and were rebranded under a ceed bank so they could be marketed to the masses. Not many ceed banks actually breed strains in the first place. With most of the original old skool strains the work was done by others and the seed banks took the credit or they crossed it with one of their afghani's and called it their own.

I did like the idea of "if you only had one strain to smoke what would it be?"
Toss up for me but I always liked these four strains the best:
Real old skool RKS
Alaskan thunderfuck (sativa)
Chocolate chunk
God weed

They might not be the most potent strains, but the effects are top notch and desirable for me.

HazeHeaven said:

A lot of sense made here. My exact opinions pretty much when it comes to judging. Especially the fact that smoking 5 or so times in a day will severely impair your judgement of a particular strain. If you are still coming down from a previous strain, that will impact how you judge the effects of the next one.

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Not only do I not think its really possible to fairly judge potency/effect of 20-30 different strains in a week, I don't even think the judges try to do that.

Based on explanations by judges I've seen/heard, my understanding is that they do it something like this:

Each judge gets 25 (give or take) bags, each containing a small numbered sample. The judges go through each one and inspect each bud by eye and perhaps with a loupe. Anything that looks too scraggly, has mold, looks badly cured, or lacks good trichrome coverage/development gets instantly eliminated. You'd think that given what's involved no entrants would ever have these problems, but apparently at least with the Dutch cup, there are typically some half-assed last minute entries that do. That's probably a lot less common then it used to be, though, as the cups have become more popular and the stakes higher.

The judges also SMELL each sample. Only the strains with the most outstanding scent and appearance stay. Everything else is eliminated, and by this point the field will have been cut significantly.

Now each judge has a personal short list of samples that they want to actually smoke. The judges may go through these at this point, and try some. Anything that doesn't burn right or smokes harsh from bad cure is also instantly eliminated. Anything that remains goes to the score cards, and the judges develops a personal list of favorites, which they bring to the table when they meet with the other judges.

Typically, what happens is that when the judges meet a few samples stand out and end up on multiple lists, and these are the real "contenders". Everything else is effectively eliminated at this point.

Now the judges may compare notes/score cards, debate, pass around "comparison" joints or bowls, , lobby for favorites, horse-trade, etc, until they get down the final selections. Recently (ie just the last 1-2 contests) the samples are also lab analyzed independently, and the judges can see the numbers and consider them. Anything too weak will lose ranking, and anything really strong may stand out a bit.

The point is, actual EFFECT doesn't come into play here so much. If something really stands out due to extra potency or lack thereof, the judges may (or many not) notice, but I think now lab analysis has pretty much taken the place of subjective smoking potency judgment.

In practice, I think most of these top strains are testing in the low 20% THC range anyway. They're ALL pretty potent, and so that factor may not be decisive. As to qualitative differences in effect; you pretty much CAN'T judge that after you've been on a "bender" of trying 5-10-15 strains in a matter of a few days. But again, how different in effect are 3-4 different kushes or a bunch of sativa/haze hybrids going to be? They're probably more similar then different.

Pepe le skunk said:

How many cup winners or other strains actually came from America or other locations by private breeders?

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If you're specifically referring to the Dutch High Time Cannabis cup, which is the most famous one, most of the winners companies are based in Amsterdam. Even DNA Genetics, which has won a number of cups and is owned/run by two Americans, running largely (but not entirely) American-bred genetics still has a physical location in Amsterdam.

This makes sense if you figure that anyone outside of Holland would have to either have their cup entry grown locally in Holland, or else have to physically smuggle the entry buds across international borders into Holland. For obvious reasons, this makes it much harder for non-Holland based (let alone non-European based) companies to compete. The process is so difficult and expensive, that it acts as a strong disincentive for smaller breeders to try, significantly limiting competition.

As to the actual genetics themselves, they come from all over the place. Clearly many are American based (like Kosher Kush and a bunch of other OG-type hybrids), but you have eclectic hybrids that are combinations of American and European genetics, pure European genetics (themselves in many cases ultimately American or eclectic), strains where the genetics aren't well known or publicized, and even pure landraces. For example "Acapulco Gold" won the Sativa cup in 2010.

Most of the best genetics came from another source and were rebranded under a ceed bank so they could be marketed to the masses. Not many ceed banks actually breed strains in the first place. With most of the original old skool strains the work was done by others and the seed banks took the credit or they crossed it with one of their afghani's and called it their own.

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To be clear ceed "banks" just stock and sell ceeds; they typically don't create or breed them.

Ultimately ALL genetics come from someone elses work. That's how it goes. Nobody is starting from wild hemp plants; everyone is starting from well-established lines that have been tweaked for quite literally hundreds or thousands of years/generations. The best any breeder can hope to do is to create a useful new combination of pre-existing genetics and put their particular "stamp" on it.

I did like the idea of "if you only had one strain to smoke what would it be?"

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Its a great question, but I think there is still more to it than that.

-A good "desert island" type choice like that requires a lot of experience smoking all kinds of different strains, something that many smokers lack.

-The smoking part is independent of the growing part.

Maybe I'd like to smoke nothing but pure Santa Marta from the equatorial mountains of Columbia , but that doesn't mean I can get my hands on any! The best smoking strains may simply not be the most practical ones to grow in your particular circumstance and if you're going to be buying beans, that's a real consideration.

Most of the best strains and genetics in the world, are ones the average person interested in Marijuana has never heard of. There are many amazing breeders all around the world, that never bother entering cups or publicizing their genetics They breed for fun, friends and their local community. There are also smaller breeders, that breed and sell their genetics, but simply don't have the financial backing or marketing required to blow up all over the world.

Seeds, and genetics are like any other industry today. You need great marketing, and lots of capital. Without these, your company will never be able to compete on a massive scale, no matter how good your products are.

Lets use Headphones as an example. Beats Headphones by Monster are the most sold Headphones in the world right now. Yet they are garbage. Other companies, like Grado's or AKG, offer better headphones for less than half the cost. If you go to sites like Head-fi, a community of people who have a passion for audio and headphones, they wouldn't put any of the Beats model headphones in their top 100. Yet you see celebrities and the average person walking around with them every single day. Why? marketing. They don't know enough, and are not willing to learn enough, to realize although Beats may sound good, there are dozens and dozens of other Headphones that sound better, look better and are less money.

Another factor you need to account for is the legal status of growing, shipping and producing Marijuana and seeds. It requires not only a large operation, but a legal operation to compete with breeders on a large scale. A huge majority of growers, who have been growing for decades, do not live in an area of the world where it's legal. They may also not have the resources or motivation to move somewhere like Colorado, California, Amsterdam and so forth. Sub-Cool has been growing for over 25 years, and how long as TGA been around?

Many other breeders lack the logistics and care to ever enter a cup. Like Esko. They breed for fun, they breed from passion and they have no interest in awards. Many companies can also not easily ship their products all around the world. It's illegal to import and export Marijuana and Marijuana seeds. Even if you have a state or province level legal status, it's still federally illegal in America, and simply not allowed by the Canadian government as it's suppose to be a medicine, not a "hobby". Do you really think Canada doesn't have some insane genetics and breeders? Most Americans have never heard of Jean-Guy (John Doe in English), but it's one of the best strains I have ever tried in many entire life.

Cannabis Cups are also about more than just genetics. As pointed out in this thread already, it's far more about how it's grown. You can have the best genetics in the world, but if you grow it like 80 percent of people on this website, it will be thrown in the garbage by the judges long before it's smoked. You can take the greatest strain ever made, but if it's grown badly, it will be worse than the most average strain that has been grown correctly.

A lot of breeding companies are busy just trying to not get raided and keep it a profitable business. It takes massive amounts of work to enter a cup, move your product, set up hotels, bring samples, give out swag, all while having crops you need to sell to patients back at home that could all die since you are away at a cup.

There are also many suggestions that the Cannabis Cups are very biased, and many judges just give awards to friends, or people who have given them the most samples.

The entire way Cannabis Cups work is terrible, and gives people living in certain areas a huge advantage. It's not like movies, where you put your movie out, and a panel of esteemed judges decide if you deserve an Oscar nomination. As a breeder, you put your product out and nothing happens. Instead, you have to grow it, market it, find a Cannabis Cup, apply to enter the cup, smuggle your marijuana across borders or state lines (illegal), hand out free samples, give out swag, make a big scene to get noticed, then hope your sample for the judges is still in great condition, then hand it to a judge that is already stoned and can't tell the fucking difference. A judge who has no real qualification, then after all that, hope he likes it.

The point is this. Just because a strain or genetic is popular, or the company had a large enough staff and deep enough pockets to enter and win a cup, doesn't mean it's good, or the best. Many smaller breeders are making some of the best stuff in the entire world, and a huge majority of people have never heard about it because it wasn't in some terrible rap song.