Will LED lights ever....

Gquebed

Gquebed

Well-Known Member
grouch said:
It was a breakdown of his experiment. He yeilded 9 ounces with 640w of solar storm 440 and 13 ounces with 1200w of hps. He concluded that hps wins. I disagree
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What!!!!???

I never said anybody wins. My question...

Nevermind... youre not reading...
 
frica

frica

Well-Known Member
dbkick said:
what kind of HID are you talking about, since they've def advanced too.
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While definitely true, the difference between the best HID (DE Gavita, CMH if that counts) and the worse HID is not as big as the difference between shitty epiled and quality cobs from Cree/Bridgelux
 
dbkick

dbkick

Well-Known Member
frica said:
While definitely true, the difference between the best HID (DE Gavita, CMH if that counts) and the worse HID is not as big as the difference between shitty epiled and quality cobs from Cree/Bridgelux
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Gavita DE doesn't put out the best numbers by the way,
 
testiclees

testiclees

Well-Known Member
grouch said:
It was a breakdown of his experiment. He yeilded 9 ounces with 640w of solar storm 440 and 13 ounces with 1200w of hps. He concluded that hps wins. I disagree
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thanks. I didnt read the whole thing...was thinking that 640 w of 3590 @ low amps on a well designed rig could out perform 1200w of even the best HPS.
 
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Abiqua

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
Gquebed said:
True.

But i dont care to know it right now. I have other research to do to improve my growing... when i get to a point of growing skill that requires that knowledge i will make the effort..
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That should be parameter Numero uno...period, end of sentence, point blank...Then you can "experiment" aka grow.....Whether you have never grown indoors or grown for years. Knowing HOW light works, should be the 1st thing every artificial grower HAS to learn..... It is your tool box, which are where your experiments [tools] fit into ....

another great concept of this DIY led group is no matter the source light is light, certain types are able to be "tweaked" more than others, but a fundamental understanding of photons and how they are measured is something better now than later....You need a pencil to write etc....How will you quantify your growing experiments if your lighting source isn't quantified? :peace:
 
puffenuff

puffenuff

Well-Known Member
@Gquebed

You nailed it man. If you only got around 12oz from 1200w hps then your primary focus should be on improving your growing techniques and reading the needs of your plants.

Don't worry about efficiency, PAR, ppfd or any of that right now. Unless you're using shitty lights (you're not) don't get caught up in the other stuff. Figure out how to improve your yields with what you got and eventually you can start with the experiments (if that's a goal of yours).
 
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thetr33man

thetr33man

Well-Known Member
Gquebed said:
In a 6.5X7.5 space I did two runs with 2 Solar Storm 440s and two 600w HIDs.

In the first run, there was one plant (same strain) under each light. The two plants under the SS440s yielded about 4.5 ounces each for a total of 9. The two plants under the 600w HIDs yielded 6 and 7 ounces for a total of 13 ounces. Note that the LED plants had the benefit of some spillover light from the HIDs, while the reverse was not true. Also, the LED plants needed 10 more days to finish.

The second run was all the same, except that the LEDs did perform a little better. I got a total of 10.5 ounces from the two plants, while the HID plants came in about the same at 13.5 ounces. Again, the LED plants had the benefit of spillover HID light and again they needed more time to finish (8 days).

I AM NOT ARGUING AGAINST THE FACT THAT LED IS MORE EFFICIENT, WATT PER WATT. I AGREE. Math proves that...

... except for when time is added to the equation, at least in my limited experience. Meaning... the HID plants produced roughly 30% more in slightly less time.

Regardless of what math is used to prove efficiency, the 30% more yield in the same space and roughly the same time is a HUGE factor.

This experiment of mine, while not scientific, matches what I have heard from others who grow around here with LED.

So I go back to my original question, which is not about efficiency... is it possible that LED will at some point be able to produce at least equal to HID in the same grow time?
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The problem with this comparison is that the HID plants were getting much more heat and therefore had a higher metabolism than your LED plants. Plants are cold blooded, like snakes, they need heat to grow. HID produces much more infrared energy which equates to heat at the leaf. Take a thermometer and measure the leaf of a plant under HID in the same room as one under LED and you will see a significant temperature difference. So if the ideal temp for HID is 70f, if you are running LED your room temps should be closer to 80.
 
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captainmorgan

captainmorgan

Well-Known Member
A friend of mine who has been a long time HPS grower recently built a light for himself based on seeing my LED grows and used the same COB's as me down to the bin,he told me they took a week off his flower time and the yield and quality was better than the HPS. He's on his second grow with them and wants to completely switch over to top bin Cree COBs and ditch HPS.
 
Fastslappy

Fastslappy

Well-Known Member
skill of growing is a variable to every test gro that does weight comparisons
I'd say the OP should do a small build & try the new Cob tech
I killed on shiity Mars2 Equipment but I've grown all various rare exotic plants all my life
weed is the easiest of them all that I grown
Yeah i had setbacks(CalMag = the Mars curse !) but I corrected them quickly & got FIRE & frosty with Mars
I've ran M/H & HPS back 20 years ago & still have current EQ (sits in closet 4 next garage sale )
 
P

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
Gquebed said:
Again, I do not need to be sold on efficiency. I get that by the numbers they are better and I want to go LED...

But in a run I want to yield as much as I possibly can....

Anyway, a pic of the grow I mentioned above...
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You will do much better with white phosphor leds and cobs like those from cree, vero, lumiled.
stop questioning and start searching the forum.

Here is one pointer for you. https://www.rollitup.org/t/greengenes-garden.839682/

now please read it before saying anything else.
 
BOBBY_G

BOBBY_G

Well-Known Member
grouch said:
Notice how a 20% efficiency difference equates to 50% more light and 50% less heat in the example I gave above. This is how people are pulling numbers over 1gpw with leds where others struggle to get .9gpw with hid.

In micro cabinets like mine it is the difference between being able to supply myself and having to buy it.
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i think 1.5 gpw is the new benchmark with the best growers pushing 2

unheard of with HPS, when was the last time anybody got 4.5 lb off of a 1000 HPS?
 
BOBBY_G

BOBBY_G

Well-Known Member
captainmorgan said:
Solar Storm is not a top tier light in my opinion unless they recently have made major upgrades in the parts they use.
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indeed they have. i put em up in a tent and did average par measurements over a 5x5 grid
2013 "SS800" 5W = 633W at the wall, 0.498 ppfd/W
2014 "SS880" 5W (ledengine?) = 633W at the wall, 0.627 ppfd/W
2015 "SS880" 3W (osrams) = 672W at the wall, 0.698 ppfd/W

the 2015s are almost 50% brighter than the 2013 fixtures, and use 6% more power
 
D

doz

Well-Known Member
Gquebed said:
What!!!!???

I never said anybody wins. My question...

Nevermind... youre not reading...
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People are reading....

Given an area of 4x4 with 1000w HPS vs 600w of COB, you will produce roughly the same. How is that not a win? I know I ran 1000w HPS in 10sq ft and achieve 610g. With the same strain (3rd gen clone, 1000w run was done with 2nd gen clone), I was able to achieve 488g with 400w of COB (CXB3070) lighting in the same area, same environment, same plant. I know without a doubt in my mind that if I added 200w more to the room for 600w of COB that I would have equaled or surpassed a 1000w HID. That alone is a win. 600w vs. 1000w for the same yield? You are stupid not to believe in it......
 
captainmorgan

captainmorgan

Well-Known Member
BOBBY_G said:
indeed they have. i put em up in a tent and did average par measurements over a 5x5 grid
2013 "SS800" 5W = 633W at the wall, 0.498 ppfd/W
2014 "SS880" 5W (ledengine?) = 633W at the wall, 0.627 ppfd/W
2015 "SS880" 3W (osrams) = 672W at the wall, 0.698 ppfd/W

the 2015s are almost 50% brighter than the 2013 fixtures, and use 6% more power
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Are you calculating by the claimed PPFD divided by the watts at the wall?

If so my light is 2.846 ppfd/W.
 
BOBBY_G

BOBBY_G

Well-Known Member
captainmorgan said:
Are you calculating by the claimed PPFD divided by the watts at the wall?

If so my light is 2.846 ppfd/W.
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no im taking 25 real measurements at 36" in a 5x5 tent with my li-cor and averaging them

their spec sheet isnt even correct, they never updated their par data from 2014 models

is my number absolute? (relative to a flat plane or integrating sphere) - no way

is it accurate as a relative comparison from fixture to fixture? certainly
 
BOBBY_G

BOBBY_G

Well-Known Member
Abiqua said:
Duh! :) ......still the 600w HPS is the better of your two CURRENT choices imho.... they rip shit up and have a higher efficiency [Surprise] most likely than the Cali Solar's too....
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double ended 600s are prob similar to a 2013 Solarstorm in efficiency
 
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