Will this light do the trick?

How's it going people?

So I've been growing with my 600w HPS for a while with absolutely great results. The downside is the space I'm worked with. I got my girls flowering in closest, which has plenty of vertical and horizontal space, but only has about 28 inches of depth. Which cuts the amount of plants I can fit under my 600 in half.

So my goal is to some house utilize all of this horizontal space I have, first thing that came to mind see adding an LED to either side of my HPS to be able to at least up my space I'm using by 50% without having to do any construction to get more space for my HPS.

I did some research, finding that I would need around 300Ws to cover a 2 foot by 2 foot space and still get some decent dense buds. One thing I don't know too much about is the panel itself. I found one that is cheap this enough so I could buy it right away and get upgrade. I was hoping to get some more experienced input on this fixture.

http://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Horticulture-GL100LED-Spectrum-Growing/dp/B00FGG1HDM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414508446&sr=8-1&keywords=led+300w

Thanks!

With further advice from a friend that just started with LEDs not too long ago, I learned that 5W bulbs would be better for flowering then the 3W ones.

I went and found this guy, a 500W 100x5W. I figure that would do wonders for flowering a 3ft tall plant that's 2ft by 2ft wide.

http://www.amazon.com/Global-Horticulture-Spectrum-Growing-Flowering/dp/B00K846ZQG/ref=pd_sim_sbs_lg_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0AXTK31J3ES95AYF48MW

Another reason I jumped up to such a higher total wattage is because I'm thinking I'm going to scrap my 600w and see if 2x 500W leds would do the trick for a 6 long 2 foot wide space.

Thoughts?

If you can fork up some extra cash i would go for this http://a51led.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=192

But if youre set on going cheap Chinese these have a semi good reputation. http://www.mars-hydro.com/led-grow-light/mars-ii-series?___SID=U

Johnny Retro said:

If you can fork up some extra cash i would go for this http://a51led.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=192

But if youre set on going cheap Chinese these have a semi good reputation. http://www.mars-hydro.com/led-grow-light/mars-ii-seriess?___SID=U

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Thanks for the response man.

Well I would love to buy some better LEDs, and plan on upgrading the ones I do purchase, but like most people working on a budget until I get a couple more runs in with my HPS, just trying to speed the process up because of my limited space and an LED is pretty much my only option, but with all the results I'm seeing I plan on switching to full LEDs down the road.

So with all that I am leaning towards a cheaper China manufactured one, for now at least.

I like the looks of the Mars brand, the thing is there was a reason I was posting links from amazon. I am able to throw it on my store card and pay it off buy month, so like a lay away type thing. Just looking to upgrade faster and cheaper to build up some revenue for the real deal you know?

Edit: My HPS I've been using for a couple years now is this cheaper Apollo brand. All has been well.

http://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Horticulture-GL80X5LED-Spectrum-Growing/dp/B00KC6LT5C/ref=pd_sim_sbs_lg_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=02KM23XAZ70JWA40S5TQ

AllDayToker said:

until I get a couple more runs in with my HPS, just trying to speed the process up because of my limited space and an LED is pretty much my only option,

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Are you going to grow in two spaces concurrently, one HID the other LED? Or, supplement your HID with LED?

I'd only buy a TopLED just because they have a public support forum on 420mag. It's a paid sponsorship. (I don't think a person can go flaming anti-TopLED there. But, I believe there is more concern with community perception than you'll get buying from a reseller on Amazon.). VIPAR on eBay is often recommended by knowledgeable LED users as a decent alternative for people like you. The eBay seller is affiliated with the UK seller. There has been a report of a buyer being stiffed by the eBay seller, but obtaining resolution from the UK company who is evidently more concerned about their brand reputation.

Those lights will produce more heat, consume more electricity and probably be a pain to repair when they fail (probably sooner than a higher-quality light). That's why I asked how you're going to use it. Since you already have HID, I would just continue growing with it and save your money to make a longer-term investment in LED. If you're going to use it in a smaller space (concurrently with your HID), I would invest incrementally in better LED using the new Cree "lightbulbs" sold at Home Depot. Here's a link showing what I mean. This is a bit more DIY, but would be a longer-term investment. You could make use of a smaller space to grow, or accumulate parts/lights for more flexible supplemental lighting.

For example, you could buy an A51 RW75 for $200 (when you're ready) and use these 9.5w "lightbulbs" to extend its coverage. Let's say you have a 2x2' space. An RW75 coves 1.7x1.7 (optimally). 4 of these bulbs would fill that additional space. If you imagine that kind of need, investing in that flexible coverage would be a better investment (a better start) than sinking $200 in a light you're already planning to replace.

az2000 said:

Are you going to grow in two spaces concurrently, one HID the other LED? Or, supplement your HID with LED?

I'd only buy a TopLED just because they have a public support forum on 420mag. It's a paid sponsorship. (I don't think a person can go flaming anti-TopLED there. But, I believe there is more concern with community perception than you'll get buying from a reseller on Amazon.). VIPAR on eBay is often recommended by knowledgeable LED users as a decent alternative for people like you. The eBay seller is affiliated with the UK seller. There has been a report of a buyer being stiffed by the eBay seller, but obtaining resolution from the UK company who is evidently more concerned about their brand reputation.

Those lights will produce more heat, consume more electricity and probably be a pain to repair when they fail (probably sooner than a higher-quality light). That's why I asked how you're going to use it. Since you already have HID, I would just continue growing with it and save your money to make a longer-term investment in LED. If you're going to use it in a smaller space (concurrently with your HID), I would invest incrementally in better LED using the new Cree "lightbulbs" sold at Home Depot. Here's a link showing what I mean. This is a bit more DIY, but would be a longer-term investment. You could make use of a smaller space to grow, or accumulate parts/lights for more flexible supplemental lighting.

For example, you could buy an A51 RW75 for $200 (when you're ready) and use these 9.5w "lightbulbs" to extend its coverage. Let's say you have a 2x2' space. An RW75 coves 1.7x1.7 (optimally). 4 of these bulbs would fill that additional space. If you imagine that kind of need, investing in that flexible coverage would be a better investment (a better start) than sinking $200 in a light you're already planning to replace.

Click to expand...

My plan is to run it along side with the HPS in the same room. I'm running my 600w in a closest that's only 28 inches deep, so I lose out on 2ft of coverage that my 600w could do, basically cutting my possible yield in half. The width is a good 8 feet though. So right now my HPS alone covers 4 x 2 foot of usable space. I imaged putting an LED next to the HPS, basically extending my usable space to a total of 6 x 2 foot.

I figured since I don't have the full cash amount for a high quality or even medium quality, that I could throw that $150-200 price on the amazon card and get that extra 2 x 2 foot area going to try to get the higher quality panel faster.

So would my best choice be to stick with my 4x2 foot area and 600w HPS and save to get a nice panel? You'd think even a china made 400w Apollo LED panel could get the job done, but maybe not. I do not know much about LEDs, still learning things every page I look at.

IMO do not buy cheap panels. I have read so many accounts of poor construction and constant problems with a majority of the Chinese crap being built. Save up and get an A51 red/white. If you are DIY inclined you could build your own cob based led.

Sun systems also makes a 315w cmh. http://www.growershouse.com/lights/ceramic-mh-reflectors-lamps-bulbs-grow-lights

two of those would cover your space and would not really raise your power consumption much. Just an idea if you are on a budget. I would do this over a cheap led panel any day.

SomeGuy said:

IMO do not buy cheap panels. I have read so many accounts of poor construction and constant problems with a majority of the Chinese crap being built. Save up and get an A51 red/white. If you are DIY inclined you could build your own cob based led.

Sun systems also makes a 315w cmh. http://www.growershouse.com/lights/ceramic-mh-reflectors-lamps-bulbs-grow-lights

two of those would cover your space and would not really raise your power consumption much. Just an idea if you are on a budget. I would do this over a cheap led panel any day.

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Two of those 315w is only 30w more then my HPS and are $500 a piece? Not really budget. And I thought MHs are for vegging?

For the DIY, I always normally choose that option over anything else when I can, but when it comes to wires and electricity and voltages and amps, I feel like there is so much room for error.

Well I'll do a little more research on the Apollo panel, I have read good and bad experiences from lower cost/Chinese panels. Also for the reason since I've had great success with their HPS system. I am willing to buy an expensive panel, but I just need one to last a year or two and be able to produce on 3ft tall by 2ft wide plant like my 600w does. Just trying to extend the length of my HPS basically. After that I'll be moving and have a bigger area and will upgrade to bigger panels.

AllDayToker said:

So would my best choice be to stick with my 4x2 foot area and 600w HPS and save to get a nice panel? You'd think even a china made 400w Apollo LED panel could get the job done, but maybe not. I do not know much about LEDs, still learning things every page I look at.

Click to expand...

I don't think Chinese imports are as bad as many say. I have two and would be happy with the results if I were new to LEDs. I think they're better suited to shorter plants due to lack of penetration. Maybe a step up from T5HO, but not much. (I've grown under T5HO too.). But, when you use one of the better lights you'll see a drastic improvement in bud density, heat generation, electricity bill.

If I were you, I'd start accumulating some of those "lightbulbs" I linked to and develop supplemental and side lighting which you can continue to use after you replace your HID. This isn't DIY like building your own LED fixture. It's just investing time/money in hanging/aiming options. Something you can use to fill gaps or add light in flower no matter what you're using.

I don't like investing in things I anticipate throwing away. Especially if I have to put it on credit. You may get a more immediate "bang for your borrowed buck" from a monolithic fixture. But, those "lightbulbs" are something you can step into as you have a few dollars to spend and will be something you can use as just one of many tools in your toolchest.

az2000 said:

I don't think Chinese imports are as bad as many say. I have two and would be happy with the results if I were new to LEDs. I think they're better suited to shorter plants due to lack of penetration. Maybe a step up from T5HO, but not much. (I've grown under T5HO too.). But, when you use one of the better lights you'll see a drastic improvement in bud density, heat generation, electricity bill.

If I were you, I'd start accumulating some of those "lightbulbs" I linked to and develop supplemental and side lighting which you can continue to use after you replace your HID. This isn't DIY like building your own LED fixture. It's just investing time/money in hanging/aiming options. Something you can use to fill gaps or add light in flower no matter what you're using.

I don't like investing in things I anticipate throwing away. Especially if I have to put it on credit. You may get a more immediate "bang for your borrowed buck" from a monolithic fixture. But, those "lightbulbs" are something you can step into as you have a few dollars to spend and will be something you can use as just one of many tools in your toolchest.

Click to expand...

Yeah I get what you are saying. So what is the typical pentration power for LEDs? Like I know that my 600w HPS can grow buds 3ft down the plant, then they'll be getting fluffy, so I try to keep my plants around 3ft tall.

I see what you are saying about buying something, especially on credit, to expect to throw it out...

I've seen those Cree bulbs advertise on TV before. So you're saying buy a cheaper, better quality panel, then add the LED Cree bulbs like you would CFLs? Just looked at link.

He is saying use ur hps w the bulbs. Anyone really doing led grows is gonna tell u NOT to buy junk. U have to spend money to use led properly. Diy is MUCH cheaper than a good panel and will match if not beat them in performance.

At least u have been warned. Learn the hard way if u must.

SomeGuy said:

He is saying use ur hps w the bulbs. Anyone really doing led grows is gonna tell u NOT to buy junk. U have to spend money to use led properly. Diy is MUCH cheaper than a good panel and will match if not beat them in performance.

At least u have been warned. Learn the hard way if u must.

Click to expand...

Idk if you miss read when I said cheaper, better quality, and mix the Cree bulbs with that, I meant like a lower wattage but good name brand one mixed with the bulbs. It will all be in the same room right beside the HPS.

I'd love to do DIY but I'll have to learn pretty much everything, colors/watts/volts/amps/wiring/sodering, ect. That is defiantly a possible option.

I know I've been warned, before I came into the LED section I was warned there would be people on both sides of opinion where a panel is manufactured what you should be buying based on it. I understand it's a concern and I am taking it into consideration. If I do decide to buy a cheap one I think they best way to learn from mistakes is making them yourself, it'll stick in your head better, but I'm not just going to throw everything you said out the door. I'm learning.

To be honest I'm starting to aim towards making my own then saving for an expensive quality one, or messing with a bunch of bulbs.

I'm looking for a cheap, effective way to grow another plant along side the two I have under my 600, that will perform somewhat similar. The plants I grow now are around 3ft tall, and 2ft wide. I want to put a third with those and get similar if not better quality. Something that will cover 2ft by 2ft.

AllDayToker said:

So what is the typical pentration power for LEDs?

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It depends on whether the chips are 3w or 5w, reflectors or white backboard. A51's new 2015 models are supposed to use 10w.

AllDayToker said:

I've seen those Cree bulbs advertise on TV before. So you're saying buy a cheaper, better quality panel, then add the LED Cree bulbs like you would CFLs? Just looked at link.

Click to expand...

I would spend time/money now on the flexible Cree 9.5w (60w equiv) "lighgtbulbs" to fill the gap you described having. You'll get the benefit of LED and it will be something you can continue to use. Next, replace the HID with a better LED fixture. Continue to use the "lightbulbs" to fill any gaps, or to supplement (side-light) in flower. If you read CaptainMorgan's thread which I linked to you'll see he grew entirely under "lightbulbs" for awhile. He's moved on to DIY COB.

Six months from now I think you'll regret having a monolithic Chinese fixture. It could be useful as a backup for when your planned higher-quality fixture fails. It won't be a total waste. But, the "lightbulbs" and mounting/aiming accoutrements would serve the same purpose *and* be useful when a plant grows larger than you hoped, or you'd like to experiment with more watts per sq. ft.

I just harvested the autoflower shown in the link I gave. Previously I was only using the UFO and getting a little over 1g/w. But, they were a bit fluffy. I knew I needed more light but didn't want to change anything because I was fighting a different problem. I figured the problem out in early- to mid-flower and added the 4 Cree bulbs. Just harvested yesterday and the buds are much denser. In a week or so I should know the dry weight.

az2000 said:

It depends on whether the chips are 3w or 5w, reflectors or white backboard. A51's new 2015 models are supposed to use 10w.

I see what you are saying about buying something, especially on credit, to expect to throw it out...



I would spend time/money now on the flexible Cree 9.5w (60w equiv) "lighgtbulbs" to fill the gap you described having. You'll get the benefit of LED and it will be something you can continue to use. Next, replace the HID with a better LED fixture. Continue to use the "lightbulbs" to fill any gaps, or to supplement (side-light) in flower. If you read CaptainMorgan's thread which I linked to you'll see he grew entirely under "lightbulbs" for awhile. He's moved on to DIY COB.

Six months from now I think you'll regret having a monolithic Chinese fixture. It could be useful as a backup for when your planned higher-quality fixture fails. It won't be a total waste. But, the "lightbulbs" and mounting/aiming accoutrements would serve the same purpose *and* be useful when a plant grows larger than you hoped, or you'd like to experiment with more watts per sq. ft.

I just harvested the autoflower shown in the link I gave. Previously I was only using the UFO and getting a little over 1g/w. But, they were a bit fluffy. I knew I needed more light but didn't want to change anything because I was fighting a different problem. I figured the problem out in early- to mid-flower and added the 4 Cree bulbs. Just harvested yesterday and the buds are much denser. In a week or so I should know the dry weight.

Click to expand...

I was doing a little reading in that Captain guys thread, I might have to look into it with more detail.

So say I take the advice of the wise men, which I should of been from my first response about cheap shit. I'm no longer thinking about getting the Chinese made shit, scrap that idea.

Now it might take my a little time to get the bulbs, but lets go with the bulb idea first since I feel it would easier then the DIY obviously. If I'm trying to get a third 3ft tall 2ft wide plant underneath my 600, how many of the 9w or 10w bulbs would you think I would need?

Or do you think I would benefit more off keeping the two plants under the 600 like I have and just giving them some LEDs for a possible yield increase and healthier better quality plant over all?

AllDayToker said:

If I'm trying to get a third 3ft tall 2ft wide plant underneath my 600, how many of the 9w or 10w bulbs would you think I would need?

Or do you think I would benefit more off keeping the two plants under the 600 like I have and just giving them some LEDs for a possible yield increase and healthier better quality plant over all?

Click to expand...

You need 20-25w/sq ft of those Cree bulbs. I don't know what you need for HID. 40-50w? You just have to figure out the coverage area of the HID, how much further you wish to go outside the HID's footprint, how many sq. ft that will be. 9.5w per bulb. How many bulbs to get 20-25w/sq ft.

You can also replace your hid in veg, use 1:1 ratio of daylight:warm bulbs. Maybe 15-20w/sq ft. You'll already be saving money on electricity in veg. Use the HID for flower (along with whatever warm bulbs you need). That's a lot of flexibility compared to a monolithic fixture. You won't have all your proverbial eggs in one basket. You'll be learning more about LEDs, using a ubiquitous plug-n-play system. Getting experience with multi-source "bathing" versus single-source penetration. You'll develop some DIY confidence playing with different mounting options.

Like you, I wouldn't mind doing a DIY COB. But, the more I play with multi-source "bathing" the more I like it. I'm starting to think in terms of how much watts per *cubic* foot, not *square* ft. (To be honest, I wonder if A51's plans to do 10w chips will require more distance between canopy and fixture. I'd rather have more 3w or 5w sources than one extremely bright 10w. But, I don't know much about it.).

az2000 said:

You need 20-25w/sq ft of those Cree bulbs. I don't know what you need for HID. 40-50w? You just have to figure out the coverage area of the HID, how much further you wish to go outside the HID's footprint, how many sq. ft that will be. 9.5w per bulb. How many bulbs to get 20-25w/sq ft.

You can also replace your hid in veg, use 1:1 ratio of daylight:warm bulbs. Maybe 15-20w/sq ft. You'll already be saving money on electricity in veg. Use the HID for flower (along with whatever warm bulbs you need). That's a lot of flexibility compared to a monolithic fixture. You won't have all your proverbial eggs in one basket. You'll be learning more about LEDs, using a ubiquitous plug-n-play system. Getting experience with multi-source "bathing" versus single-source penetration. You'll develop some DIY confidence playing with different mounting options.

Like you, I wouldn't mind doing a DIY COB. But, the more I play with multi-source "bathing" the more I like it. I'm starting to think in terms of how much watts per *cubic* foot, not *square* ft. (To be honest, I wonder if A51's plans to do 10w chips will require more distance between canopy and fixture. I'd rather have more 3w or 5w sources than one extremely bright 10w. But, I don't know much about it.).

Click to expand...

Yeah I think it's 40-50w per sq ft, I haven't paid attention to that for a while because I've just had the same system for a while, been tweaking my feeding and soil mixes and now ready to focus on yield, which is why I am looking into LEDs. If it's 40-50 sq ft for HIDs, I'm running about 75 per sq ft for HIDs, so that's nice lol.

Alright so if I need around 20-25w a sq ft of Cree bulbs, trying to get another 4 sq ft of cover, I would need 80-100w of bulbs. So around $100 worth of bulbs, which is half the price of the cheapo Chinese panel.

Now if I combined these with my 600w, do you think I would be able to do another 3ft tall 2ft wide plant, or would do you think I could accomplish the yield out of that third plant from the two I normally do with the extra 100w of LED?

AllDayToker said:

I combined these with my 600w, do you think I would be able to do another 3ft tall 2ft wide plant, or would do you think I could accomplish the yield out of that third plant from the two I normally do with the extra 100w of LED?

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I don't know. I didn't understand your total space and how the HID covers it. I would put the HID in the middle as the core light and supplement around the perimeter. If you can afford to supplement only one edge, then I'd position the HID so its coverage begins at a corner of the space (benefit from reflected light from the two perpendicular walls) and use the Cree bulbs to extend coverage on one opposite (wall-less) side. As you can afford more bulbs and hanging/aiming equipment, supplement the other wall-less side. Then consider moving the HID to the middle and supplement all around the sides.

I don't think there's any right way.

az2000 said:

I don't know. I didn't understand your total space and how the HID covers it. I would put the HID in the middle as the core light and supplement around the perimeter. If you can afford to supplement only one edge, then I'd position the HID so its coverage begins at a corner of the space (benefit from reflected light from the two perpendicular walls) and use the Cree bulbs to extend coverage on one opposite (wall-less) side. As you can afford more bulbs and hanging/aiming equipment, supplement the other wall-less side. Then consider moving the HID to the middle and supplement all around the sides.

I don't think there's any right way.

Click to expand...

Well my 600w is in long skinny closest. So basically the whole closest would be probably 8' tall x 8' long x 2' deep.

So if you can imagine that, my sq footage is limited because of the depth of the closest. My 600w HID should cover 4' long x 4' wide, but since one of the widths going straight back or vertical, I can only cover a 4' long x 2' wide area, which gives me space for two 2' wide x 2' wide plants, well since I'm doing somewhat of a scrog that's how I put it.

So my main goal in my skinny but tall and long odd room is to make that 4' x 2' area my HID is cover now, into cover a 6' x 2' area, essentially adding another 2' x 2' plant to the already existing two 2' x 2' plants that I fit under the HID currently.

Imagine the room kind of like a hallway. Long, tall, skinny.


Edit: just an add in I want to thank you for helping me. I try my best to help people because it's that one person that steps up and helps that carries on growing and makes better growers. One person stepped up when I first start CFLs, got me on HIDS, got me on organics, I can't thank him enough.

It only takes one person to change a lot of minds. Just imagine the number of minds I could change, and those people after.

You could buy a couple of cheap warm white LED floodlights, eg 50w/ $40 ea they will last a grow or 3. 1 or two either end. The spectrum I had (3500k-ish) wouldn't flower well on their own but did work in a similar situation, at first with the crossover light from HPS then later in a similar setup either side of a main LED (I had an A51 160w with 50w flood either end).

Personally I would add a DIY cob either end, they are easy to build. That is where I ended up after coming back here to ask about further supplementing LED/Floodlights.

But either way, that is a serious amount of light (or power/heat ) you are talking about. 600w+300W? At the least I would consider splitting, something at either end, including some cross-over from the HPS for both, especially with any cheaper light and questionable spectrum. The RW 75 would probably also be my first commercial choice, my 'chinese' LED lights (Apollo/Cidly ran hot and within as little as two grows, proved some false economy.

AllDayToker said:

Well my 600w is in long skinny closest. So basically the whole closest would be probably 8' tall x 8' long x 2' deep.

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You said you keep your plants 3ft tall. With softer, multi-source lights you could divide your vertical space into two levels. You could literally grow twice as many plants in the same space because you wouldn't need the vertical distance required by your HID, or some of the 5w reflector LED fixtures. Ventilation and heat extraction would take some creativity.

You mentioned CFLs in some context earlier in this thread. This is what I like about these low-wattage "lightbulbs." They have more penetration than CFL. They're more credible as a light. But, the wattage and heat are less. Unlike CFL you can get a good-sized plant such as your 3-4ft but still be in a relatively small space due to little distance requirement (unlike a typical fixture).

That's what I meant about my skepticism about 10w chips. I wonder if the yield will make up for the distance required between canopy and light (versus a more compact grow which conserves vertical space). In your case, I think you literally could have two 2x8 grow spaces (4' tall) by *not* doing the fixture.

Anyway, the benefit of doing the discrete bulbs first is that you can get a feel for that *before* buying a fixture to replace the HID. If you bought the fixture first you'd be on a path that would be difficult to change. Starting with discrete bulbs you might experiment with using them as an exclusive light source. The worst thing that can happen is you'll have efficient supplemental light for whatever fixture you end up using.

I said earlier I've been thinking more in terms of cu. ft. That's what I mean. I grow 2 autos in a 2x2x4' tall tent. I've thought about stacking one on top (which is wasted space right now) and grow 4 plants. Being able to keep the lights right on the plant makes that possible. I used to wish I had a 5' tall tent so I could use my A51 RW-75. But, now I'm thinking about it differently. That distance requirement seems like an inefficiency. It's not just 22.5w/sq. ft. If I can do 4 plants in 64 cu. ft. using [whatever w/cu. ft. that comes out to], that's more efficient than 2 plants in 40 sq. ft. (just because the fixture requires 14" distance).

Something to think about.