Wisconsin Revolt

Carthoris said:

Seriously? That is a steaming load. Not only are unionized workers being payed more than they are worth on the market - they have more benefits. Thats BS. They should be payed in line with normal workers of the same caliber and with the same amount of training. The entire premise of that link is that "Well, they'd be making 80k a year if they weren't getting those benefits" more or less. Being union doesn't make you a better teacher - if it does, then you are a douche to begin with.

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According to whom? Considering their level of education, college degrees, and training they are getting less in wages and benefits than their contemporaries in the private sector. The bullshit you're spouting isn't taking ANY of this into account. Another half-lie to make is seem like teachers are getting more than they deserve. Seriously? Teachers? Not to mention that teachers use 12-15 percent of their own wages for school supplies and sundry items needed for teaching.

UncleBuck said:

401Ks and pensions are two very different things.

when we place our money in a 401k, there are no promises.

when you sign a contract, that is a promise.

when people point blame at the economy we are in, we look at the asshats on wall street, the politicos that passed horrible laws, and other factors.

i don't recall anyone pointing the finger at teachers and nurses and snow plow drivers...because they are not the cause of the rough economy. yet they are willing to sacrifice and take their lumps anyway.

they have agreed to every financial concession. some bunch of goons those unions are.

if anyone is causing an impractical clusterfuck, it is the governor in the back pocket of the koch brothers, unwilling to compromise or sacrifice himself. he could have every budgetary concern he wants if he just compromised with these teachers who are willing to sacrifice 10% of their whopping 50k salaries.

there is a clear compromise that SHOULD satisfy all parties. if you don't see this, i really pity you.

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I pity the fool who thinks a $1 trillion boo boo should be ignored. It doesn't work...it will never work. You can not put the tax payer on the hook for 3rd party investments.

You mention wallstreet, but apparently the state is supposed to have Goldman Sachs level analysts perfecting projections in a fundamental enviroment. They can't even balance a checkbook let alone run complex models that are still not guaranteed to work...especially over the long term. Even the best of the best don't have a crystal ball that sees that far.

Yeah, the compromise is simple. Any poltician wining and dining with union heads pushing for something that can never work should be put in jail. And these pensions need to be completely seperated from the tax payer burden. Your pension fucks up....sorry reserve the right to keep your money and invest yourself. You can blame all the asshats you want...people are going to keep living longer and oh every few years the economy will hit the skids...it always does. Tightening the belt and setting yourself up to get annihilated are 2 different things.

I am for the people plain and simple. Democrat, Republican, Bipartisan, or what ever it is all the same shit different tool (person)! The relationship that we have with our government is for the people to serve the government. Not the other way around.

He who trades freedom for security deserves neither.

Here is an article by 60minutes called state budgets: the day of reckoning. It came out before WI really came to a head. Give a few examples of states under water with public unions.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/12/19/60minutes/main7166220.shtml

MrDank007 said:

Yeah, the compromise is simple. Any poltician wining and dining with union heads pushing for something that can never work should be put in jail.

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how about with billionaire oil execs pushing for something that can never work?

are you seriously that belligerent?

those union heads have compromised, they have said 'take 10% of our hard earned money to solve a problem we did not create'.

the billionaire oil brothers (who inherited it all from their daddy) are the ones with the governor paid for and in their back pocket, saying 'don't stop at taking 10% of what they were promised IN A CONTRACT, forever strip them of the ability to ever bargain again in most arenas, despite their reasonable compromise'.

do you think the koch brothers let their business partners renege on contracts? HELL NO! they take them to court, and you fucking know it.

MrDank007 said:

And these pensions need to be completely seperated from the tax payer burden. Your pension fucks up....sorry reserve the right to keep your money and invest yourself.

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sorry, that is not how it works.

i clearly explained the difference between playing the market (401k) and signing a contract (pension).

they are two distinct things, like apples and oranges.

learn the difference.

MrDank007 said:

You can blame all the asshats you want...people are going to keep living longer and oh every few years the economy will hit the skids...it always does. Tightening the belt and setting yourself up to get annihilated are 2 different things.

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historically, the economy hits the skids far less often than 'every few years'. in fact, downturns like the one we are in were last witnessed in the early 80's (30 years ago) and 30's (80 years ago). there have been others, just not as bad.

people will live longer (hence my support for raising the SS age), and there are more kids in school.

as far as 'tightening the belt' versus 'preparing for annihilation' goes, that is my point exactly. these public sector union employees are willing to take a 10% hit, which counts as 'tightening the belt' by anyone's definition. i have had to tighten my belt a full 50%, so don't preach to me about that.

what is being 'prepared for annihilation' is the ability of teachers, nurses, and other public employees to negotiate anything beyond a simple cost of living raise. even i, a simple $10 per hour wage worker, has more power than that.

again, if you want to attract the best teachers, you have to make it attractive. if you want to attract shit quality teachers, make it less attractive. pretty damn simple.

Just to set it straight... Every dollar a teacher earns comes from the taxpayer. So technically the taxpayer does pay for their pensions and health care.

Yeah the "contract" is the result of collective bargaining. I get the difference and it is the egregious center of the debate and needs to be done aways with. Collective bargaining results in ridiculous contractual obligations. If you can't see the analogy between pensions and what everyone else does for retirement, then I'm at a loss.

Sorry this last post about oil brothers ect. is you on the ropes flailing your arms around refusing to hit the canvas....another what about something I don't like. Give the teachers a salary, they can collectively invest if they want...at their own risk like everyone else. No shortfalls...no guarantees. In that 60 minutes article, that also prick NJ gov clearly states they don't have an income problem, they have a benifit problem. CA's expenditures on public union benifits...It doesn't work. The Forbes author put a huge what if the market gets better...this might not be so bad. Most dangerous comment I have ever seen. Keep beating a dead horse at the risk of all.

You are a MJ genius, so let me approach this another way.
You burn a plant, flush it and let it get a little better...just so you can burn it the exact same way down the road because the nute union reserved the right to bargain your hand later.

I'll choose to be a realist and you can operate on blind faith in the system.

Game, Set, Match...Dank out!

MrDank007 said:

Yeah the "contract" is the result of collective bargaining. I get the difference and it is the egregious center of the debate and needs to be done aways with. Collective bargaining results in ridiculous contractual obligations. If you can't see the analogy between pensions and what everyone else does for retirement, then I'm at a loss.

Sorry this last post about oil brothers ect. is you on the ropes flailing your arms around refusing to hit the canvas....another what about something I don't like. Give the teachers a salary, they can collectively invest if they want...at their own risk like everyone else. No shortfalls...no guarantees. In that 60 minutes article, that also prick NJ gov clearly states they don't have an income problem, they have a benifit problem. CA's expenditures on public union benifits...It doesn't work. The Forbes author put a huge what if the market gets better...this might not be so bad. Most dangerous comment I have ever seen. Keep beating a dead horse at the risk of all.

You are a MJ genius, so let me approach this another way.
You burn a plant, flush it and let it get a little better...just so you can burn it the exact same way down the road because the nute union reserved the right to bargain your hand later.

I'll choose to be a realist and you can operate on blind faith in the system.

Game, Set, Match...Dank out!

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there was a good bit on this last night on jon stewart.

shows all the Fox Business Pundits saying stuff like: "these bonuses to these executives are legally binding contracts. We cannot just break legally-binding contracts. That's not how this works." "without this type of compensation they won't attract the kind of talent they need" stewart went on to sarcastically conclude: "Yeah they need the ridiculous wages to attract the best talent so that they don't mess up and torpedoe the global financial market system"

then they show the same pundits bashing legally-binding contracts concerning teachers and other hard workers.... talking about how these contracts are meaningless......

redivider said:

there was a good bit on this last night on jon stewart.

shows all the Fox Business Pundits saying stuff like: "these bonuses to these executives are legally binding contracts. We cannot just break legally-binding contracts. That's not how this works." "without this type of compensation they won't attract the kind of talent they need" stewart went on to sarcastically conclude: "Yeah they need the ridiculous wages to attract the best talent so that they don't mess up and torpedoe the global financial market system"

then they show the same pundits bashing legally-binding contracts concerning teachers and other hard workers.... talking about how these contracts are meaningless......

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Another whatabout:
We get it...Wallstreet needs rules! Doesn't change the fact WI is financial trouble. SS and medicaid unfunded liablities are in excess $100 trillion. You can curse wallstreet, drop a bomb on it and put every investment banker in jail and IT IS STILL THERE bailout or not. Ergo while wallstreet needs it's own attention nothing about it holds the key to the solution regarding entitlement related debt....not even taxing them to the hilt. That's not saying it doesn't hold the key to other issues though.

Tackle the wallstreet problem, tackle the gov debt problem and put down the ideolgical whatabouts when adressing either. Is THIS working? Now, it THIS working? Fox news, Glen Beck...are you implying they are slanted.....nooooo way. Still paying for pension shortfalls though...Calling them assholes may be fun, but does nothing else.

You can say true things about stuff you don't like, but justifying another topic with it is just bickering. Someone thinks they are exposing hypocracy? Fine, you are...it's called politics...but, the problem still there. Your elected officials need to be saying "Let's get on this debt problem even if it means tough decisions" "That CEO did what?" "He took a bonus with taxpayer money?" "Let's get on that fucker too"

you keep talking about the debt as if it was such a huge problem.

it's not. deficit spending can help the economy if that spending isn't going to bail out financial services firms which used the money to fund derivatives that funneled the money into the pockets of a lucky few.

unemployment is a bigger problem. cutting spending will cost the US jobs.

know what boehner said: 'so be it'. he said so be it, if american jobs are lost b/c of their budget cutting craze....

redivider said:

you keep talking about the debt as if it was such a huge problem.

it's not. deficit spending can help the economy if that spending isn't going to bail out financial services firms which used the money to fund derivatives that funneled the money into the pockets of a lucky few.

unemployment is a bigger problem. cutting spending will cost the US jobs.


know what boehner said: 'so be it'. he said so be it, if american jobs are lost b/c of their budget cutting craze....

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Holy shit bro...I'm speechless. I finally get it...you guys live in la la land

MrDank007 said:

..."contract"...

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i deleted the rest of what you said, because this is all i need to reply to.

putting it in quotes like that seems to indicate that you do not believe what these workers signed was actually a contract. a legal promise.

you need to learn what a contract is.

MrDank007 said:

If you can't see the analogy between pensions and what everyone else does for retirement, then I'm at a loss.

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i've been talking about the differences and similarities for several posts now.

one is playing the market, one is a contract.

what is your fucking point?

MrDank007 said:

Sorry this last post about oil brothers ect. is you on the ropes flailing your arms around refusing to hit the canvas....another what about something I don't like.

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dude, do you not pay attention? did you not hear the tape of the prank call that walker thought was real? did you not hear what he said?

the fact that the governor is undoubtedly bought and paid for by the koch brothers is relevant to this discussion.

fuck your "what abouts"

MrDank007 said:

You are a MJ genius, so let me approach this another way.
You burn a plant, flush it and let it get a little better...just so you can burn it the exact same way down the road because the nute union reserved the right to bargain your hand later.

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that is perhaps the most ridiculous and asinine comparison i have ever heard, ever.

the nute union? wtf?

[video=youtube;5hfYJsQAhl0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0[/video]

Let me get out the ole business law book. Yes, you are correct there is a thing called a contract. Now WTF is this thing called an amendment? Keep on flexing that intellectual muscle with those fancy terms. Rattle dattle ding dong! Perhaps arbitration is in order? Maybe the contract should be considered null and void.

Anytime a party enters into a contractual agreement and that party is under duress, the contract is null and void. So, if a business has all of its employees walk off the job that business is losing money and under duress. The employees are then said to be using coercion as a tactic. In this case the unions slipping the high hard one to politicians while the true employer (tax payer) pays through the nose. Also, if the gov goes into bankruptcy the contract can be nullified...perhaps binding arbitration through the legislature would be better.

CONTRACTS!!!

I do, however, award you points for the use of that vid in your retort and bonus points for coining the phrase "festering pile of ejaculate"...gonna stick that one in the file for later use

MrDank007 said:

Holy shit bro...I'm speechless. I finally get it...you guys live in la la land

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You are the one who lives in la la lands, economists have understood how government spending can be used to grow/shrink the economy for 70 years, its called Keynesian economics.

When you suffer from a lack of demand the gov't should "prime the pump" by putting money into the hands of consumers, either directly, or through jobs programs such as public work projects, public-private partnerships, and other ways. When you suffer from a lack of supply(which we definitely DO NOT) is when you give tax cuts to the upper class, those who own the capital which creates supply.

Either way, cutting spending and lowering the deficit leads directly to less demand, there are no ifs ands or buts about it, you shrink the deficit you shrink the economy, period. Which is why you need to balance the budget when the economy is rolling and when you are in a recession you spend spend spend. Problem is so called "conservatives" increase the deficit every chance they get no matter what, and they always/only do so in a way that benefits the upper class(they don't even deny this, "trickle down economics") Problem is that is how you boost supply, not demand.

We used to think that "supply creates its own demand". But about 100 years ago we learned that isn't true.

Mike Young said:

So you're telling me you're a janitor that get's paid less then 20k per year? And get shitty benefits? I'm sorry.

You need to read the thread before you come in here and think you are gonna get some kind of argument. Almost everything you've "brought to light" has been covered.

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I didn't see anything over the 50+ pages that hasn't been said somewhere by somebody. Did I ever say I brought anything to light that was shocking and new? A couple pages ago you were parroting about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Did anything new come of that? You were just accusing McDank and more or less all republicans of stealing from the poor to give to the rich. Isn't that a recurring comment from all lefties? So every time you say something like that someone should pop up and yell "BEEN SAID STFU" ? Oh, thats right, the name of the game is hypocrisy. If I had said "dur union good, republican bad dur dur" you would of cheered and danced and flown paper dragons in the sky.

UncleBuck said:

dude, what do you think teachers and nurses are? they go to school for 4 years. they have plans, they work to improve their lives. why should they have to make any sacrifice to help fix a budget situation that they did not cause?

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Maybe critical reading wasn't part of your schooling. I specifically referred to the janitors there. Keep in mind the union thing isn't just about teachers. Also, everyone helped cause the budget situation. It wasn't one or two people, the entire country accepted it.

but they do not make 60k+, they make 50k. and they work when they get home, on their weekends, on their holidays, and in the summer.

what is your proposal, to pay teachers less? that would be a great way to attract shittier teachers. they can teach your kids, not mine.

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Giving teachers 500 more dollars a year wouldn't increase the level of education in this country, nor would taking 500 for pensions, ect. Teachers in Wisconsin average 50k, and they don't work 12 months a year. So that number is deceptive. The pensions, health insurance, and ect cost as much as the salary. By continuing this and making tax payers pay for it, you are saying that government workers are more important than your average citizen.

as i sit here remembering how my professor in 'writing for the professions' taught me how to compose superb resumes and cover letters and all the jobs that has led to over the years, i can not help but feel sorry that you are so pissy about having been taught basic arithmetic.

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I learned basic arithmetic and reading from my grandmother/father/mother before I ever started school. I am sorry that your family did not provide for this very important need and that you had to be passed off to someone who probably didn't care about you besides the money they made.

half of school's purpose is socialization and conformity, like it or not. as individualistic as we may be, conformity and socialization allow us to get by in society without acting like savages straight out of lord of the flies.

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Conformity... you will be assimilated? Funny, it seems to me that most of the people who run the school feel like the school is there to provide them with jobs.

UncleBuck said:

401Ks and pensions are two very different things.

when we place our money in a 401k, there are no promises.

when you sign a contract, that is a promise.

when people point blame at the economy we are in, we look at the asshats on wall street, the politicos that passed horrible laws, and other factors.

i don't recall anyone pointing the finger at teachers and nurses and snow plow drivers...because they are not the cause of the rough economy. yet they are willing to sacrifice and take their lumps anyway.

they have agreed to every financial concession. some bunch of goons those unions are.

if anyone is causing an impractical clusterfuck, it is the governor in the back pocket of the koch brothers, unwilling to compromise or sacrifice himself. he could have every budgetary concern he wants if he just compromised with these teachers who are willing to sacrifice 10% of their whopping 50k salaries.

there is a clear compromise that SHOULD satisfy all parties. if you don't see this, i really pity you.

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They make a lot more than 50k total, and they also only agreed to the cuts (which amounted to nothing near 10%) because they knew they were coming whether they agreed or not.

Power to the people! The economy is bs monopoly banker money that doesn't really exist. Fascism is designed to fail eventually, it can not last forever.

Originally Posted by redivider
you keep talking about the debt as if it was such a huge problem.
it's not. deficit spending can help the economy if that spending isn't going to bail out financial services firms which used the money to fund derivatives that funneled the money into the pockets of a lucky few.
unemployment is a bigger problem. cutting spending will cost the US jobs.

know what boehner said: 'so be it'. he said so be it, if american jobs are lost b/c of their budget cutting craze....

MrDank007 said:

Holy shit bro...I'm speechless. I finally get it...you guys live in la la land

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Ain't that the flippin truth.

On a lighter note, Im building a fairy garden in my back yard with a miniature flour mill + river, a population of yard gnomes, and everything. I like to sit around an fantasize and enjoy la la land. The world ceases to exist and anything is possible. It is a great place to be. I know its not real, but I still like going there though. I plan to set up a monarchy in my lala land though. Run by a puppet king who reports to me. I even found some who have swords and armor. I wouldn't want those scary little fuckers to get out of line and start stealing my shoes and weed. Seriously - I am building the garden. Fairy doors going into the trees and all. Faces on the trees. I like to sit around and dream of utopia. Where everyone is happy and no one wants for anything. Unfortunately, I don't think it can work. Some people will never want to do their share, some people will never be happy, and some people will never stop wanting for things they cannot have. Buddhists believe the key to happiness is to relieve yourself of desire. Sometimes I wonder if they are onto something but perhaps they are looking at it from the wrong direction. Maybe the path to enlightenment involves relieving yourself of constraints and giving into your desires at every level - basically being an animal.

Yea, Im stoned, so what.