Wisconsin Revolt

Rob Roy said:

We should all support that which we want and that which we use. If we are made to pay for something we do not want or support, our "support" is not given, it is taken as a form of theft. If fairness is of concern to you, step back and recognize ALL the forces at work here.

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I'm not sure what you are targeting with this.(Either the individual mandate or taxes in general).

Let's go with taxes, you don't want to pay taxes, don't use US dollars, go back to bartering.

Note that out government is "we the people".

No one is forcing you to use US dollars, you don't have to pay taxes if you get paid in chickens. You use US "we the people's" dollars then you play by "our" rules, all those notes belong to "we the people", "we the people" are just letting everyone else use them.

"Give back to Caesar the things that are Caesar's..."

Now, about the individual mandate found in the healthcare bill, I am all against that, being forced to give my money back to "we the people" is one thing, being forced to buy a service from a privately owned, profit generating corporation is another.

Carne Seca said:

Really? I'm a conservative Mormon. You REALLY think this about bashing conservatives? This is about the truth and what it happening across the country to Unions and the middle class. Keep voting against your best interests. Like the Judas Goat you lead the rest of middle America to the slaughter. You need to open your damn eyes and see what's going on here instead of spouting rhetoric half of which you don't even understand.

If being gay means having common sense then by God I've been gay since birth.

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You are the ones who made the options obviously biased and the results completely useless. You could of at least pretended that you weren't purposely being biased on the poll. You used it only as a platform to attack the gov of Wisconsin. That was my point in the "How long have you been gay" question. The question makes it a given that you are gay and is are only asking how long you have been gay. Your poll did the same thing in assuming that the peoples will wasn't being done by the gov or that in the long run it isn't what was right for the state of Wisconsin. Here is a couple more examples:

What are your thoughts on abortion?

1) People should be allowed to senselessly murder their children if they want.
2) People have the right to live
3) Who cares

Or alternatively

Women should not have the right to choose what she does with her body?

1) Women should not have the right to choose what they do with their body, and essentially aren't people and have no rights.
2) Women are people and should be allowed to decide what to do in their lives.
3) I dont know

Obviously both of those 'polls' are really designed to get different answers for the same question by biasing the people taking the poll. Yours is exactly the same as those two. Then, to add to it you went and said you were conservative. Lies and deceit. Bravo, Bravo.

green bean said:

Wisconsin is another example of a state that gives generous tax cuts for corporations to lure private investment to their state. In principal it sounds great except it reduces revenue that the state collects for its budget. The governor is asking for the teachers to pay for the shortfall (which they have agreed to do). The fall of organized labor in this country is a huge reason for the destruction of the middle class. Real wages(adjusted for inflation) have been on the decline in this country since the late 70's along with health care and pension benefits. A man could go to work and support his family back then. Nowadays the husband and wife work full time with no pensions and no healthcare with lots of personal debt. Since the big companys pay such meager wages, banks have loosened lending standards so that our quality of life remains high--Until the housing market collapses and millions of people go bankrupt. The companys of the S & P 500 are sitting on up to 2 trillion dollars of cash right now. I think it would be best if they shared the wealth with their employees. We should all support teachers, their wages and benefits are mostly fair. They seem excessive because the rest of us are so used to getting screwed.

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Seriously? Your entire thing is based on that you cannot do well in life. Here's a suggestion, stop sitting around getting high all day and look for a better job. Or even better, work harder at the one you have until you make it to where you want to be. Every one of us has either not applied ourselves fully, missed opportunities because we were scared, or just didn't want the stress of a higher paying job. You can not and should not expect to have a 50,000 a year job if you don't give a damn or even try. Stop acting like the rich people are holding you back, they aren't. You are.

Hey, by the way, is that a muppet version of fear and loathing on your icon? If so, thats fucking awesome.

Rob Roy said:

After 57 pages nobody seems to want to answer why if it's okay for public workers to negotiate shouldn't it also be okay for the people paying the tab to choose to go in a different direction?

A free market negotiation to be fair allows either party the option of stating what they will or will not accept, compromising or walking away. Yet the people that foot the bill don't have the option of seeking another service provider or not using the service at all do they?

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Agreed. If you call to get plumbing done - do you just go with the first person or call around and get prices from others? We make the decision of quality vs price in every thing you do - why would businesses be any different? Walmart is evil for paying their associates only 8 bucks an hour - yet those people just stand there and straighten items on a shelf and talk to customers. They aren't doing anything talented - those who do, even at walmart, get payed more. How much do you think unskilled, uneducated, and unmotivated workers should make? If a person doesn't care enough about their future to go to school or even try at the jobs they do get, then oh well for them. Have fun living at poverty level forever.

green bean said:

Wisconsin is another example of a state that gives generous tax cuts for corporations to lure private investment to their state. In principal it sounds great except it reduces revenue that the state collects for its budget. The governor is asking for the teachers to pay for the shortfall (which they have agreed to do). The fall of organized labor in this country is a huge reason for the destruction of the middle class. Real wages(adjusted for inflation) have been on the decline in this country since the late 70's along with health care and pension benefits. A man could go to work and support his family back then. Nowadays the husband and wife work full time with no pensions and no healthcare with lots of personal debt. Since the big companys pay such meager wages, banks have loosened lending standards so that our quality of life remains high--Until the housing market collapses and millions of people go bankrupt. The companys of the S & P 500 are sitting on up to 2 trillion dollars of cash right now. I think it would be best if they shared the wealth with their employees. We should all support teachers, their wages and benefits are mostly fair. They seem excessive because the rest of us are so used to getting screwed.

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If they lower taxes on corps by 10 percent, and get more businesses to move to Wisconsin in return, then there are more jobs and more money spent in the stores, which also makes more jobs at the stores the people who work at the new businesses work at, and more population coming in, which brings even more business since there are more potential customers.

The housing bust is because lots of people bought houses they couldn't afford and made stupid deals. No one tricked them into it. If you are too stupid to understand the mortgage papers, then you probably are too stupid to own a house. The companies loaning them the money should not have loaned it to them. However, at the same time, the government promoted and forced these companies to make the loans. Many of the foreclosures now are because people know their houses will never be worth what they payed for it in their lifetimes, so they are walking away. I did not buy a house until the market collapsed because I knew the houses were way over valued. You can blame the market and businesses if you want, but our government promoted all of this.

green bean said:

Wisconsin is another example of a state that gives generous tax cuts for corporations to lure private investment to their state. In principal it sounds great except it reduces revenue that the state collects for its budget. The governor is asking for the teachers to pay for the shortfall (which they have agreed to do). The fall of organized labor in this country is a huge reason for the destruction of the middle class. Real wages(adjusted for inflation) have been on the decline in this country since the late 70's along with health care and pension benefits. A man could go to work and support his family back then. Nowadays the husband and wife work full time with no pensions and no healthcare with lots of personal debt. Since the big companys pay such meager wages, banks have loosened lending standards so that our quality of life remains high--Until the housing market collapses and millions of people go bankrupt. The companys of the S & P 500 are sitting on up to 2 trillion dollars of cash right now. I think it would be best if they shared the wealth with their employees. We should all support teachers, their wages and benefits are mostly fair. They seem excessive because the rest of us are so used to getting screwed.

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Wouldn't it make more sense to not support the unions and lower taxes on everyone instead - thus giving everyone something? You assume because people are rich they did something wrong, this is not the fact of it. You are jealous and need to get a grip. You are screwing yourself.

Coolwhip said:

Inflation was negative in 2010. Deflation caused the great depression. Inflation isn't some monster coming to eat us all, it's just the money supply growing, it's normal and in most cases intended. Right now our problem is not inflation, our problem is that we can't cause it no matter how hard we try.(and believe me, they are trying) Deflation is much much much worse than inflation, we know how to stop inflation in it's tracks(although it can be economically painful). No one really knows how to stop a deflationary cycle, the last time the US ended up in one it took MASSIVE, never before seen or even imagined government spending to pull us out of it, it was called WWII, and it's what proved Keynes was right the whole time.

We could have built every bomber, ship, tank, gun, etc. we could have taken every one of them and sank them in the middle of the Atlantic ocean and it would have had the same effect on our economy. WWII was a GIANT public works project, thats all. It was the only thing that could get the gov't to spend the amount of money necessary to pull us out of the GD, without it FDR just didn't have the political power to spend money fast enough.

The only reason FDR's New Deal was working so slowly(and the reason Obama's stimulus generally failed, Romer(head of CEA at th time) recommended $1.2 Trillion in NEW SPENDING, the Stimulus package only contained about $400b in new spending, 1/3 the needed size), is because it was too small. But in both cases it would have been much much worse without them. We needed more spending then just like we do now.

Of course they go back and revise numbers all the time, they do it when they receive new information. Works like this, they get 90% or
so of the data, enough so that the figures they come up with once they do the calculations will be close enough to accurate, and since lots of people are waiting to see what they release, they release them. Then, once the rest of the data comes in, they revise their calculations.

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We spent a lot of money on things during WW2. You present that side of it simply enough. It was necessary, and we had to do it. The part you don't seem to be mentioning is that we payed for the war in the years after by running a budget surplus. In a relatively short time. The reason being is no one else had manufacturing so we made everything for everyone - everyone else got bombed to hell during the war and had no choice. The war ushered in a golden age for the United States due to that, it had little to do with all the money we spent. We can not continue to spend in bad times unless we pay some of it off in the good times.

Coolwhip said:

I'm not sure what you are targeting with this.(Either the individual mandate or taxes in general).

Let's go with taxes, you don't want to pay taxes, don't use US dollars, go back to bartering.

Note that out government is "we the people".

No one is forcing you to use US dollars, you don't have to pay taxes if you get paid in chickens. You use US "we the people's" dollars then you play by "our" rules, all those notes belong to "we the people", "we the people" are just letting everyone else use them.

"Give back to Caesar the things that are Caesar's..."

Now, about the individual mandate found in the healthcare bill, I am all against that, being forced to give my money back to "we the people" is one thing, being forced to buy a service from a privately owned, profit generating corporation is another.

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At least quote it correctly. Jesus said "Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

Whether you get paid in chickens, gold, or money you still are getting taxed the same amount - if you aren't, you are doing tax evasion. Maybe you should reread the constitution, or read it at all, since I highly doubt you have. Our government is not mandated to steal money from one and give to the other any more than it is mandated to make illegal marijuana.

Coolwhip said:

Inflation was negative in 2010. Deflation caused the great depression. Inflation isn't some monster coming to eat us all, it's just the money supply growing, it's normal and in most cases intended. Right now our problem is not inflation, our problem is that we can't cause it no matter how hard we try.(and believe me, they are trying) Deflation is much much much worse than inflation, we know how to stop inflation in it's tracks(although it can be economically painful). No one really knows how to stop a deflationary cycle, the last time the US ended up in one it took MASSIVE, never before seen or even imagined government spending to pull us out of it, it was called WWII, and it's what proved Keynes was right the whole time.

We could have built every bomber, ship, tank, gun, etc. we could have taken every one of them and sank them in the middle of the Atlantic ocean and it would have had the same effect on our economy. WWII was a GIANT public works project, thats all. It was the only thing that could get the gov't to spend the amount of money necessary to pull us out of the GD, without it FDR just didn't have the political power to spend money fast enough.

The only reason FDR's New Deal was working so slowly(and the reason Obama's stimulus generally failed, Romer(head of CEA at th time) recommended $1.2 Trillion in NEW SPENDING, the Stimulus package only contained about $400b in new spending, 1/3 the needed size), is because it was too small. But in both cases it would have been much much worse without them. We needed more spending then just like we do now.
.

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The Stimulus package was $862 billion, the Bank Bailout for US banks was $1.4 trillion, Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac was $400 Billion and counting ( they have an open Gov't checkbook now),Tarp was $700 Billion, Citigroup was $280 Billion, $142 Billion for US Bank, AIG was $180 Billion, and here is the real kicker, what they never told you was the $1.4 trillion was what the USA banks got, the foreign banks like Deutsche Bank and Credit Suisse got a nice bailout from us also, to the tune of $3.3 TRILLION. So add those numbers up whip. 400 billion my ass. We are on the hook for more like $5trillion. Keynesian Economics is a scam for the people and a boon for the government, intentionally used to enrich the elites and keep the poor and working person toiling away to pay for it all. The government doesn't have any money, they can only produce debt, debt which YOU and I must pay for with interest.


Deflation makes those who hold cash much better off, while inflation makes those who hold debt much better off. Deflation is only a terrible thing when it is spiraling due to a huge bubble bursting, these huge bubbles have been created by the erroneous application of government policy. Deflation is a boon for some and a curse for others, same as inflation.

FDR's New Deal didn't work slowly, it just didn't work. Obama's Stimulus package won't work either, it only kicks the can down the road a bit. Watch the price of 10 year US Treasury notes, when it hits 5% the Cost of interest will be more than all the tax base income. Currently the USA is able to stave off massive inflation by selling treasuries, other countries import our inflation and that is precisely the reason we see the unrest in the Middle East.

You know why they revise the numbers? The real fact is because the numbers are always wrong, they don't release them early before the data is in either. If unemployment is lessening how come all the polls show it increasing? Once your unemployment benefits run out, you are not counted as unemployed anymore, you are taken out of the aggregate number. That 192,000 increase was just 192,000 more people that will now have no unemployment check coming in is all.

Big Inflation, its coming. It has to come and wipe out the real negative interest rates this country has had for years now. The Fed will never stop printing, the more they print the less your dollar buys. The higher the price of gold, the less your dollar is worth. 10 years ago $1 US was worth $1.36 Canadian. Now its only worth 96cents Canadian. Devaluation is what will allow Government to pay off their debts at your expense. Why you cannot see this is beyond me, perhaps the Obama Siren song about how Government is going to take care of your every need has you entranced. They will take care of their own needs and could give a shit about your personal situation, you won't receive anything, but all those politicians will still be flying around partying on your dime.

Coolwhip said:

I'm not sure what you are targeting with this.(Either the individual mandate or taxes in general).

Let's go with taxes, you don't want to pay taxes, don't use US dollars, go back to bartering.

Note that out government is "we the people".

No one is forcing you to use US dollars, you don't have to pay taxes if you get paid in chickens. You use US "we the people's" dollars then you play by "our" rules, all those notes belong to "we the people", "we the people" are just letting everyone else use them.

"Give back to Caesar the things that are Caesar's..."

Now, about the individual mandate found in the healthcare bill, I am all against that, being forced to give my money back to "we the people" is one thing, being forced to buy a service from a privately owned, profit generating corporation is another.

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Government is force. You can call a chicken a duck, but it will still be a chicken. Being forced to do anything cannot be made right, if the force is nondefensive and is initiated by rationalization.

Coolwhip said:

I'm not sure what you are targeting with this.(Either the individual mandate or taxes in general).

Let's go with taxes, you don't want to pay taxes, don't use US dollars, go back to bartering.

Note that out government is "we the people".

No one is forcing you to use US dollars, you don't have to pay taxes if you get paid in chickens. You use US "we the people's" dollars then you play by "our" rules, all those notes belong to "we the people", "we the people" are just letting everyone else use them.

"Give back to Caesar the things that are Caesar's..."

Now, about the individual mandate found in the healthcare bill, I am all against that, being forced to give my money back to "we the people" is one thing, being forced to buy a service from a privately owned, profit generating corporation is another.

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Actually the paper notes lately say "Federal reserve" on them. And I believe chicken bartering is taxable, but I'm not certain eggsactly.

We the people...that's funny.

mastertow said:

I don't know how many have actually read the bill. I have not finished the entire bill, it's 144 pages, but I am working on it.

There are other things which I think will incite the public when it becomes known.

Like this...
Currently, this state owns and operates numerous heating, cooling, and power
plants that were constructed by the state to provide heating, cooling, and power to
state facilities. The Department of Administration (DOA) determines the method of
operation of these plants and may delegate this authority to any other state agency
that has managing authority for a plant. This bill permits DOA to sell or contract
for the operation of any such plant. The bill exempts such sales and contracts from
the requirement for approval of the Public Service Commission (PSC) that may
otherwise apply under current law. The bill provides that the net proceeds of any
sale, after retirement of any outstanding state debt and any necessary repayment of
federal financial assistance, is deposited in the budget stabilization fund. The bill
also allows DOA, at any time, to petition the PSC to regulate as a public utility any
person who purchases or contracts for the operation of any plant under the bill.
Under current law, the PSC has regulatory authority over public utilities, including
the authority to set rates for utility service.

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you're getting there brother. Koch = power plants
Koch big supporter, donator of Walker. I think they'll be smart about it. Hire a front company to get in, then buy that company down the line.

buried in the 144 page document, these guys are calculating and good

16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state−owned heating, cooling,
and power plants.
(1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the
department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may
contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without
solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best
interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or
certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to
purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is
considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification
of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).

The Union scam artists are just as bad.
http://www.educationnews.org/ed_reports/education_organizations/108345.html

"Under current Wisconsin law, the identity of the insurance company that provides health coverage to school employees is a matter of collective bargaining in each school district.

In the majority of districts around the state, WEAC negotiators have used that law to pressure local school boards into purchasing coverage from WEA Trust, an insurance company established by and closely associated with the union.

A few dozen districts have managed to dump WEA Trust insurance over the past few years, despite the protests of teachers and their union. Officials from many of those districts say they managed to save at least six figures their first year with a different carrier, and maintained steady rates in subsequent years, while still offering quality health coverage to employees.

Officials from other districts say they're also eager to dump WEA Trust coverage, but need their employees' anonymous claim histories from WEA Trust to share with other bidders. Several say they have never requested that information because they were told WEA Trust would punish them by pulling them out of local insurance pools, resulting in skyrocketing premiums."

So money in a budget that could go to education is instead used to line the pockets of the Wisconsin Education Association Trust instead. And you thought crony capitalism was just for republicans, lol.
Follow the money trail. While intentions are sometimes good it always pays to follow the money trail if you want to know what the skeeves are up to.

Coolwhip said:

I'm not sure what you are targeting with this.(Either the individual mandate or taxes in general).

Let's go with taxes, you don't want to pay taxes, don't use US dollars, go back to bartering.

Note that out government is "we the people".

No one is forcing you to use US dollars, you don't have to pay taxes if you get paid in chickens. You use US "we the people's" dollars then you play by "our" rules, all those notes belong to "we the people", "we the people" are just letting everyone else use them.

"Give back to Caesar the things that are Caesar's..."

Now, about the individual mandate found in the healthcare bill, I am all against that, being forced to give my money back to "we the people" is one thing, being forced to buy a service from a privately owned, profit generating corporation is another.

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You should know that you are wrong. The IRS requires that anyone that pays someone in barter also provide a 1099. Our country collects taxes on income regardless of form, not on 'the US dollar.'
You cannot even escape the reach of the IRS by moving and working in another country! As long as you remain a US citizen, you owe Uncle Sam a portion of your income.

Now, when the government employees form a union, consumers do not have a choice but to support a union shop because of the natural monopoly government has on it's services. In private business, a company might have to make a business decision to shut its doors or move to another location if they cannot be profitable. This is something that the union has to consider in its negotiations, that they need their employer to remain solvent and that leads to more rational negotiations and when it doesn't, the employees will lose their jobs like what happened with failed Eastern Airlines. Government employees have no such worries. The city or state cannot just close or move to another location. They negotiate with politicians that are often friendly to their cause and give them concessions they couldn't get in the private-sector, because they know they will be 'paid back' during the next election. The politician does not have the same motivation to control costs like a private business does which gives government unions a huge advantage over the taxpayers that are funding them.

This is the essence of why even the ultra-liberal FDR said he was against public-sector unions. There have been editorials and blogs by liberal political commentators that also see and understand that there is a fundamental difference between private-sector and public-sector unions and it is possible to be for unions and for teachers but still be against collective bargaining for government employees.

UncleBuck said:

if they 'revise' the numbers so much, why didn't dubya revise the shit out of them so that we didn't see 700k jobs pissed away each month?

end point: they may be revised, but they are a decent start, and mesh pretty well with reality. more people are getting jobs, new unemployment claims are dropping, the economy is coming back...slowly.

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The jobs people are taking are paying less. Overall, wages are down. The cost of goods, food, clothing, and gas is going up. That isn't a recovery. That is the great depression revisited. Remember a recovery isn't just about jobs.

Parker said:

The jobs people are taking are paying less. Overall, wages are down. The cost of goods, food, clothing, and gas is going up. That isn't a recovery. That is the great depression revisited. Remember a recovery isn't just about jobs.

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what do you expect from the greedy top 3% of earners????

wages are down and it's not because of the government, or the people, it's because of the bottom line....

we know a recovery isn't just about jobs, we have to get corporations and the top % of earners in this country to start using or 'trickling down' the trillions of dollars they have in their coffers. they say it's to hedge against 'risk'. i say it's b/c they just want those retained earnings to slowly be divied up between the 'preferred shareholders'.....

redivider said:

what do you expect from the greedy top 3% of earners????

wages are down and it's not because of the government, or the people, it's because of the bottom line....

we know a recovery isn't just about jobs, we have to get corporations and the top % of earners in this country to start using or 'trickling down' the trillions of dollars they have in their coffers. they say it's to hedge against 'risk'. i say it's b/c they just want those retained earnings to slowly be divied up between the 'preferred shareholders'.....

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I think greed is always a factor, but why weren't wages always down if they are "about" greed? In a free market, it's what the market can bare. Make no mistake about the free market and peoples need to make money. No one wants to cut their own throat but if someone can make a profit selling something at a lower price or by paying employees more they will. Course with all the rules and regulations its a lot harder for mom and pop stores to start up.

You hit on a good point concerning corporations, they look out for their shareholders. You have to look after yourself too. No one does things for you much. If someone says they are doing something for you it's a very good bet they are getting something out of it too and long term it'll probably benefit them more. No one will look out for you better than yourself.

redivider said:

what do you expect from the greedy top 3% of earners????

wages are down and it's not because of the government, or the people, it's because of the bottom line....

we know a recovery isn't just about jobs, we have to get corporations and the top % of earners in this country to start using or 'trickling down' the trillions of dollars they have in their coffers. they say it's to hedge against 'risk'. i say it's b/c they just want those retained earnings to slowly be divied up between the 'preferred shareholders'.....

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Greedy because they aren't giving away money? Isn't wanting more money being greedy too? Everyone is greedy - don't be mad because you aren't on top.

redivider said:

what do you expect from the greedy top 3% of earners????

wages are down and it's not because of the government, or the people, it's because of the bottom line....

we know a recovery isn't just about jobs, we have to get corporations and the top % of earners in this country to start using or 'trickling down' the trillions of dollars they have in their coffers. they say it's to hedge against 'risk'. i say it's b/c they just want those retained earnings to slowly be divied up between the 'preferred shareholders'.....

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That theory is about as interesting as debt is not a huge problem. Holding cash is a negative return when you consider inflation. The reason they are holding reserves is 1) uncertainty in the market 2) lack of available liquidity in the capital markets 3) the "new" way of thinking born out of a recession regaring operating on razor thin margins and not having a safety net. The market is not flying high on projections...it wants to see liquidity a source of financial strength. The pendulum has simply swung from being overly agressive to overly conservative. This will change, but not until market conditions do.

UncleBuck said:

you might want to take a look at the latest jobs report. you might not want to because it contradicts what you just said.

your choice.



as i recall, the hundreds of millions of dollars of tax payer money that gave bonuses to the very people who crashed the economy amounted to more than what the teachers have agreed to forgo.

what was fox news saying back then in support of those bonuses?

oh yeah, it was promised to them in a contract.

well fuck.

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I don't know how to get off the whatabout train. Whatabout anything you have said changes the fact that there is a huge gap of unfunded liablities WI can't pay for? Whatabout anything you have said will fix that going forward? All you have said is they offered a concession (whiptyfuckingdo and wrong strategy IMO), contracts are contracts and there's a lot of other things wrong the world. Your loophole example simply is not enough.

What you can't admit is and what we are actually discussing is unsustainable regardless of all these other things. You show emotional ploys and whatabouts as do all these liberal authors and they may indeed be valid, but not one logical solution as how to keep the current way of doings things solvent. And it's because you can't. The fact of the matter is that it is unsustainable. It's unsustainable on it's own and unsustainable no matter what you conflate with it. The closest I saw was the Forbes author saying...well maybe the market will get so much better. That was unacceptable. The best case scenario unfortunately that I see actually happening is limping along until the next mess. But it's unclear if they can even do that at this point.

Carthoris said:

Greedy because they aren't giving away money? Isn't wanting more money being greedy too? Everyone is greedy - don't be mad because you aren't on top.

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actually they asked us to give them 700 billion dollars. TWICE.

it seems like the only ones on the receiving end of this equation are the ones that least need it. the ULTRA RICH.