Zerowater and Ph?

ganjamanotie

Well-Known Member
Hello RIU.

I've been using Zerowater to water my plants.Ive also never checked the ph. I know, I know. Sounds blasphemous to most. My plants look absolutely healthy. Never any problems of any kind. I just wanted to know if anyone else has tried Zerowater and what it does to the ph(I have no way of reading ph currently)
 

Indoor Sun King

Well-Known Member
Why do you think zerowater is better than tap water?

Personally I would use tap water unless it was extremely poor quality

As for pH....yours is likely very low and will eventually impact your plants.....go to a fish store and buy a pH drop test kit ($5)
 

GrowinDad

Well-Known Member
I use tap thru a PUR filter and it is about 7.8. Really, I think it depends on your water supply, not the filter.
 

Nullis

Moderator
I've used the tabletop Zerowater filter before in the past. It's a five stage filter (Pur\Brita are 2-stage at best, activated carbon + ion exchange resin) and does clean tap water very well, albeit kind of slowly. The pH should be near neutral or possibly slightly acidic due to carbon dioxide dissolving in the water, forming carbonic acid.

The bigger issue is that the purified water may actually be too pure. Tap water and spring water has a higher mineral content. Plants can use minerals present in water especially the calcium and magnesium. Really pure water like rain water, distilled or reverse osmosis has very little mineral content. This is okay, if you're trying to avoid chlorine/chloramines and other potential contaminates, but it is usually recommended to use a Ca/Mg product.

Otherwise though, no, 'pHing' really is not required for soil\living organic grows. I would instead recommend adding dolomitic limestone to your planting mix prior to using it (1-2 tbsp per gallon and closer to 2 if you plant to use water that clean). Materials like sphagnum peat moss which is a very common potting mix ingredient are also quite acidic. Potting mixes do usually come limed, but it may not be adequate for long term. Dolomitic limestone neutralizes acid over time while providing Ca and Mg, and it is difficult to over-do.

Remember how CO2 can dissolve in water, forming carbonic acid? Well, this is exactly how minerals like calcium and magnesium can get into tap water in the first place. Particularly in western and southern regions of the US, there are natural deposits of limestone. As CO2-saturated water makes its way to the water table/aquifer it reacts with the carbonates (e.g. calcium carbonate) and forms bicarbonates (e.g. calcium bicarbonate) which are much more soluble in water.

In soil, pH fluctuations are normal and pH is influence by both soil biota (microbes) and the plant as it absorbs nutrient ions, usually in exchange for other ions like H+ or OH- as bicarbonate (HCO3). Also, soil pH isn't exactly constant\homogenous throughout. Again, the roots themselves and microbes can and do alter pH within the rhizosphere, where nutrient absorption takes place. As well, the compounds they produce such as humic and organic acids chelate or sequester nutrients, making them more plant available.
 

ganjamanotie

Well-Known Member
Ive been using Zerowater regularly. If I wanted to give her a supplement what would you recommend that's fairly cheap and effective? I went to the local greenhouse supply yesterday and the nutes they were selling were 300 bucks and I really don't want to cough out that much $
 

ganjamanotie

Well-Known Member
Why do you think zerowater is better than tap water?

Personally I would use tap water unless it was extremely poor quality

As for pH....yours is likely very low and will eventually impact your plants.....go to a fish store and buy a pH drop test kit ($5)
Nowhere did I state that I think that Zerowater is better than Tap. That's just what I use. I dont like chlorine and fluoride in my plants and I certainly wouldn't spray them down with it. Some of the stuff that's in your tap is crazy.
 

miccyj

Well-Known Member
Interesting, do you have a TDS meter? I'd be curious to see if the filters really do produce 0 TDS water, I use distilled water which is <1 ppm TDS. How slow are they and how long do they last? I go through about 4k-5k litres of distilled water per year, I wonder what the cost difference would be if I just filtered my own.
 

ganjamanotie

Well-Known Member
Interesting, do you have a TDS meter? I'd be curious to see if the filters really do produce 0 TDS water, I use distilled water which is <1 ppm TDS. How slow are they and how long do they last? I go through about 4k-5k litres of distilled water per year, I wonder what the cost difference would be if I just filtered my own.
I do, well 2 now cause I bought another Zerowater. They work great. I've used it on ever faucet in the house. Turns out the bathroom water is slightly dirtier/more tds
 

ganjamanotie

Well-Known Member
I've had my first Zerowater for 2 years and just bought my second last month. They take approx 5 minutes to fill. It's worth it imo for the taste alone. After Zerowater I will never go back to tap
 

miccyj

Well-Known Member
I've had my first Zerowater for 2 years and just bought my second last month. They take approx 5 minutes to fill. It's worth it imo for the taste alone. After Zerowater I will never go back to tap
How much water would you say you put through it before you had to replace it?
 

ganjamanotie

Well-Known Member
It's really interesting because my tap isnt bad really, about 30 ppm. I also own a brita and it literally doesn't take out anything. It would read 30ppm just like the tap. On the Zerowater website you can see the national average and where I live is the cleanest
 

ganjamanotie

Well-Known Member
How much water would you say you put through it before you had to replace it?
I used it every day, multiple times a day for 2 years. So let's say I filled up the 8 glass pitcher 3 times a day for 2 years. And I only replaced it because my pitcher had a crack in it, the filter is actually still good. Once they read 006 you should replace it and it only reads 002 from 2 years of constant use
 

toomp

Well-Known Member
Nowhere did I state that I think that Zerowater is better than Tap. That's just what I use. I dont like chlorine and fluoride in my plants and I certainly wouldn't spray them down with it. Some of the stuff that's in your tap is crazy.
hes right though. you will eventually have problems with your plants if you dont monitor the ph. If you need to add a nutrient your ph will drop in the water and you will be feeding them acidic water and nutes the plants will still look great until the 1st sighn of def then you have to flush because in soil it takes a while to go bad but when it finally decides to show you its going bad it goes bad fast
 

Nullis

Moderator
How much water would you say you put through it before you had to replace it?
This would all depend on how dirty your water is to begin with. The filters are basically designed or capable of filtering a certain total weight of the dissolved solids. If I remember correctly, this is something like 5,000 mg and it says either on the box or the documentation that comes with it.

hes right though. you will eventually have problems with your plants if you dont monitor the ph. If you need to add a nutrient your ph will drop in the water and you will be feeding them acidic water and nutes the plants will still look great until the 1st sighn of def then you have to flush because in soil it takes a while to go bad but when it finally decides to show you its going bad it goes bad fast
This is really a misconception, for reasons I mentioned in my first post and I can elaborate a bit. For one thing, some growers barely add anything to their irrigation solutions. Even in cases when you do, different nutrients will influence the soil solution pH differently. Ammonium-nitrogen (present in high amounts in many synthetic fertilizers, also may be present in manures in natural form) has been shown that applications can be followed by a sharp drop in pH, followed by a slow rebound.
A healthy soil/living soilless mix will typically rebound. Soil itself is basically designed to resist sudden changes in pH. It has cation exchange and buffering capacity. Cations are positively charged particles (ions), including H+ (hydrogen) and many that are required for plants (NH4+, K+, Na+, Ca++, Mg++, Zn++). Humus and clay particles are minute, and feature these [predominately] negatively charged 'sites'. They attract cations; the greater the CEC of a soil or material, the more nutrients it is able to hold.

As well the higher the cation exchange capacity a soil has, the greater the buffering capacity (ability to reduce pH change) under the right conditions. CEC comes overwhelmingly from the humus and clay content of a soil. Other materials like sphagnum peat, coco coir, vermiculite also have a measurable CEC. Perlite and rockwool have virtually no CEC. Clay and humus (which comes from decayed organic matter) have excellent CEC as well as humic substance content. Both are denser materials, but humus is spongy and holds moisture well. Examples of humus-rich materials are compost, earthworm castings, and forest humus. Microbes themselves are small enough to be involved in cation exchange (i.e. they have 'exchange sites', places where ions bind), as are roots (the fine root hairs).

The thing is that most potting mixes, while deigned to mimic soil, do not typically contain any soil (loam). They may contain composted materials or earthworm castings, but are mainly sphagnum peat based. Again, sphagnum peat is quite acidic. Although it has a cation exchange capacity, it also has/can have a great deal of reserve acidity (a tendency to hold on H+ cations). Very simply put, the more H+, the lower the pH. Coir is a better material to start with, as it may have a pH closer to 5 or 6.

This is where base cations come into play. Base cations are the following: Na+, Ca++, Mg++, K+. The later are the more important ones as these are primary\secondary plant nutrients. Simply put, base cations counteract acidity by reducing the over-all ratio of H+ cations and forming alkaline compounds- like carbonates.

Remember those carbonate compounds I was talking about in my last post? Lime/oyster/egg shell flour is calcium carbonate. Dolomitic limestone contains magnesium carbonates (more or less dep. on source but over a certain %).

When you apply lime to soil or potting mix, much of it exists as the precipitate. Solubility in water is pH dependent. A bit of the lime is immediately going to ionize or dissociate into the soil solution. Another portion of the applied lime will also react with the acidity to form carbon dioxide and water. Some of this is going to dissolve in the soil solution, forming carbonic acid, which dissociates to bicarbonate. Bicarbonate salts as a rule only exists in water and being salts they are electrically neutral.

All of this, forgetting about equilibriums and ionization constants (because fuck em right?) releases those Ca++ and Mg++ cations, which are plant available... Being divalent cations (having more electrons than monovalent H+) they have a greater potential to displace the reserve H+ (acidity) and occupy more of those exchange sites. When that acidity goes into the soil solution, it may go on to form insoluble or electrically neutral compounds, or go on to react with more of the lime precipitate, and on and on it goes.

That's just from a strictly 'chemical' soil sciences perspective... I don't have the time to get into the biology right now and you'd be reading ten more paragraphs if I did.

I can also tell you that I never ever do anything to adjust the pH of any solution I add to the soil. I do not use liquid pH Up or Down whatsoever. I do not pH test my soil as a rule. That is something I rarely do and whenever I do I get something acceptable. Again, pH isn't supposed to be constant or homogenous throughout (it's not in nature). Some fluctuation is acceptable, and anything between or around 6-7 is acceptable. Don't put a lot of faith in what your pH pen or whatever is telling you if you're a soil grower.5.9 is probably okay, 7.2 could be just fine. You're not going to know what the exact pH is between the root-soil interface (rhizosphere) and it would vary at different times and places through out it and the rest of the soil.

Whether I sound like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about is for you to determine.

Ive been using Zerowater regularly. If I wanted to give her a supplement what would you recommend that's fairly cheap and effective? I went to the local greenhouse supply yesterday and the nutes they were selling were 300 bucks and I really don't want to cough out that much $
I only use General Organics CaMg+ for the purpose, since I use rain water that is typically under 10 ppm. I use the lowest amount unless I see an indication the plants need more (available) calcium. It is made from dolomitic lime and plant extracts and notably contains no calcium nitrate.

I still add more dolomite lime before planting (I recycle/mix a lot of my soil as well), and I also add Azomite. This is a remineralizer, and there are similar (enough) products from other sources: e.g. Excelerite, Rare Earth sold for the same purpose. These are ancient seabed and\or volcanic deposits that contain a wide spectrum of minerals, and may also contain humic/fulvic substaces.
 

toomp

Well-Known Member
This is really a misconception, for reasons I mentioned in my first post and I can elaborate a bit.
a Newb is going to read that and chase his tail in flowering trying to fix a problem that took 3 weeks to accumulate

9 out of 10 you dont ph your plain water you will eventually lock out do to high ph
9 out of 10 you dont ph your water after nute you will eventually lockup due to acidic soil.

The newb will then begin adding nutes 1st to correct the appearance of def. and will finish the crop off
 

ganjamanotie

Well-Known Member
I'm going to be buying a ph tester. I'd like a digital one but I dint want to spend too much. The greenhouse supply had one for 50 bucks and the "top of the line" for 75, which of course they preferred and tried selling me.
 

miccyj

Well-Known Member
I'm going to be buying a ph tester. I'd like a digital one but I dint want to spend too much. The greenhouse supply had one for 50 bucks and the "top of the line" for 75, which of course they preferred and tried selling me.
Spend the extra 25 bucks, you shouldn't skimp on your PH metre
 

Nullis

Moderator
a Newb is going to read that and chase his tail in flowering trying to fix a problem that took 3 weeks to accumulate

9 out of 10 you dont ph your plain water you will eventually lock out do to high ph
9 out of 10 you dont ph your water after nute you will eventually lockup due to acidic soil.

The newb will then begin adding nutes 1st to correct the appearance of def. and will finish the crop off
Well, hopefully they will read further and realize not to start chasing their tail in the first place. Set your soil up right from the start; don't even start using pH Up to "compensate" for something that really isn't (or wouldn't be) a problem.

I used to grow predominately with Earth Juice nutrients. If you mixed some EJ Grow up and did a pH test on the solution, it would be in the red (pH ~4). Still, pH up was not needed (just the lime). Even the manufacturer made it clear in the feeding schedule that pH adjustment is not required. I know other of other organic nutrients that state the same thing.
What some folks do with Earth Juice is aerate it for 24-36 hours before applying to bring the pH of the final solution up. I didn't try this for years and still had great results. If you do aerate the Earth Juice you may see better results; aerating will cause an increase in microbial populations naturally present in the plant food, these microbes (particularly bacteria) will produce an alkaline bio-slime and it offers many of the same benefits as an actively aerated compost tea.

People screw up and treat soil like hydro, because they don't understand that soil is alive and they couldn't even imagine the things that actually go on within it. The fact of the matter is that plants have grown on Earth for millions of years. Plants, whole forests, growing entirely without human intervention; with no fertilizer or pH Up. How is this possible? Soil and soil biota has evolved largely to cater to plants. Microbes nourish plants in nature, protect plants in nature, with the plants largely in control. Natural systems/processes/cycles in place build up the top soil and replenish nutrients. Humans have only interfered and have dramatically impacted soil health via over-application of synthetic salts, pesticides, monocultures and wasting organic matter by tossing it in land fills instead of composting and actually replenishing both nutrients and humus.

After people discovered that plants absorbed nutrients in ionic form, they thought well hey we can just use/market these chemical salts as plant feed. The reality of the situation is that it just isn't that simple. We still have yet to elucidate all there is to soil biology and the complex [symbiotic] relationships between plants and microbes, and between microbes and other microbes. Thanks to the electron microscope, though, we know more than ever about them. For instance, microbiologist began to learn what roles bacteria/archaea actually played in soil and began to learn that certain fungi were largely responsible for a great deal of the uptake of certain nutrients (particularly phosphate) in various plant species. We now know it's even more in depth. Not only do fungi help plants, and bacteria/archaea help plants... the fungi that help plants are actually helped in turn by certain bacteria. Various other symbiotic bacteria literally pull plant available Nitrogen out of thin air. They take the nitrogen gas in the atmosphere and turn it into plant available available nitrogen; ammonia to ammonium to nitrites to nitrate. This is an important part of the Nitrogen cycle and a plethora of bacteria/archaea play roles here. Certain N-fixing bacteria (Rhizobium) are well known to associate with legumes (peas, beans, alfalfa, clover, peanuts).
 
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toomp

Well-Known Member
The fact of the matter is that plants have grown on Earth for millions of years. Plants, whole forests, growing entirely without human intervention; with no fertilizer or pH Up..
never smoked a land race that was more potent then what I have.

we both know most newbs is getting ffof and will run out of buffers before buds hit 3rd gear n flowering in the closet of his 1st apartment in the city. Majority of the people are not mixing their own soil or the nute companies wouldnt be big buisness

might be a good idea to say when going organics with enough lime you dont need to ph, I can see a 1st 2nd 3rd timer pulling it off with subcools mix with out too many problems and no ph.
 
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