Why hate on the Chinese?

[Thorhax]

The pair of SGS- 160s I've seen in action are pretty cool.. $400 for 155w quality..
http://a51led.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=180

Check this non-quality light that uses 5w chips too. $350 for 468w..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-New-Reflector-900W-LED-Grow-Light-5W-Chip-Hydroponics-Veg-Flowering-Panel-/310997191831?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item4868e08c97

I feel light no matter how much better the quality the sgs is, that cheap Chinese light just has way more power

I hear advanced led is another good brand, however its $545 for 200w?!
http://advancedledlights.com/3w-led-grow-lights/new-diamond-series-leds-extreme-3w-led-technology/

 

[Thorhax]

Btw I'm not being paid to do this or anything.. Idk if that has to be said or not

 

[skunkd0c]

Btw I'm not being paid to do this or anything.. Idk if that has to be said or not

are you testing the area 51 light
against cheaper Chinese lights ?

 

[FranJan]

Why do you say that it has way more "power"? It sure as shit draws more watts but watts doesn't tell you the amount of usable light . All LEDs are not created equally. I replaced a 300 watt "Chinese" panel with about 160 watts of American and German based LEDs. Chinese or budget panels mostly use what's called signage grade diodes that produce quite a bit of light but not efficiently,. Yes you can grow weed with them but at the end of the month when you see your growth and get your electrical bill you realize you should of just used CFLs. 5 watt Chinese diodes are big chunks of semi-conductor and use up quite a bit of energy to produce light and efficacy or the amount of energy you put into a diode and the amount of light you get out is low and isn't what you want in a grow light. Plus quality diodes produce a much more quality product and people who have used both budget and higher end LEDs will attest to that. Also there are products made in China and there are products contracted to be made by the Chinese. Big difference.

There are more reasons to hate on budget panels but do yourself a favor and don't make the amount of watts the first charecteristic of a good LED panel.

 

[SupraSPL]

I love the Chinese, but that said, the light you linked may have some serious engineering problems. Its power consumption is "claimed" to be 468W so taking driver and fan losses into account it might be dissipating 375-400W. The LEDs are probably running at 20% efficiency on average if we are being kind. The thermal path is likely very poor and that is 325-350W of heat it is trying to get rid of from a 12"X22" case. In other words if they are really running as hard as they promise, they are cooking those LEDs and cheapo LEDs do not like to be cooked. If they are running severely hot, the efficiency may be as low as 15%

The Area 51 on the other hand is running above 30% efficiency. So for every Area 51 Watt, we need 2 generic Chinese Watts to get the same amount of light and the generic light may very well burn out on you. You might argue that the Chinese light is still a better deal, but I would argue that HPS is a much better deal than the generic light and would create much less heat in your grow room. So in my mind the generic light has very little if any value to offer us.

 

[Thorhax]

are you testing the area 51 light
against cheaper Chinese lights ?

270 watt advanced spectrum led back corner(210w actual draw)
135 watt no name UFO pinker one (94w actual draw)
90 watt Apollo UFO bluer one (97w actual draw)
(Quick side note I took the glass off the UFOs and build my own reflector for the sides of them)
400w no name COB between the two (218w actual draw)
155w Area 51 sgs 160 (163w actual draw)

I am by no means an experienced farmer.

3 seasons with the same strains(~2.75oz per plant), but this is the first time "high quality" lights are being used, so there should be a huge difference? Everything besides the area51 lights were in a 4x4 tent before the pictures you see now.

this next picture shows two super lemon haze plant right next to each other, one under the 270 and the other under the sgs160. And so far they are developing the same.


Also the super lemon haze under the UFOs are developing the same so far too. This is why I am starting to question high quality vs low quality.

 

[Thorhax]

I love the Chinese, but that said, the light you linked may have some serious engineering problems. Its power consumption is "claimed" to be 468W so taking driver and fan losses into account it might be dissipating 375-400W. The LEDs are probably running at 20% efficiency on average if we are being kind. The thermal path is likely very poor and that is 325-350W of heat it is trying to get rid of from a 12"X22" case. In other words if they are really running as hard as they promise, they are cooking those LEDs and cheapo LEDs do not like to be cooked. If they are running severely hot, the efficiency may be as low as 15%

The Area 51 on the other hand is running above 30% efficiency. So for every Area 51 Watt, we need 2 generic Chinese Watts to get the same amount of light and the generic light may very well burn out on you. You might argue that the Chinese light is still a better deal, but I would argue that HPS is a much better deal than the generic light and would create much less heat in your grow room. So in my mind the generic light has very little if any value to offer us.

Thank you for answering my question. Next addition to the light collection with either be an Area 51 xgs or the new model they have coming out later this year that uses 10w Cree diodes.

 

[Thorhax]

Why do you say that it has way more "power"? It sure as shit draws more watts but watts doesn't tell you the amount of usable light . All LEDs are not created equally. I replaced a 300 watt "Chinese" panel with about 160 watts of American and German based LEDs. Chinese or budget panels mostly use what's called signage grade diodes that produce quite a bit of light but not efficiently,. Yes you can grow weed with them but at the end of the month when you see your growth and get your electrical bill you realize you should of just used CFLs. 5 watt Chinese diodes are big chunks of semi-conductor and use up quite a bit of energy to produce light and efficacy or the amount of energy you put into a diode and the amount of light you get out is low and isn't what you want in a grow light. Plus quality diodes produce a much more quality product and people who have used both budget and higher end LEDs will attest to that. Also there are products made in China and there are products contracted to be made by the Chinese. Big difference.

There are more reasons to hate on budget panels but do yourself a favor and don't make the amount of watts the first charecteristic of a good LED panel.

I do not think the amount of watts makes a good LED, however you don't think the 468w panel is throwing more light energy than the 160w American panel?

 

[FranJan]

More usable light energy? In actuality IDK because I don't have enough information about the diodes used . I've grown with budget panels and some good panels and to me there's a huge difference between what China puts out with Chinese mystery diodes and what Western companies are making. I prefer what's coming out of my tent now and how my Ebill went from 300. to 160.00 with this new setup with no loss in yield and IMO better quality at least in the taste and smell department. So my opinion is yes the A51 puts out more usable light but again that is only my opinion.

Suppossedly in 2015 there are going to be more standardization and better quality assurance standards coming to the Chinese LED industry. When that happens then I'll give budget panels another look.

 

[hyroot]

they're communists that beat us at capitalism ie the Ali Baba ipo

 

[churchhaze]

Communist, with a capital C is a a political party whereas communist is someone who believes in an ideology.

That aside, I've heard of DIY epistar multichip arrays bringing in over 1gpw when underdriven and properly cooled.

 

[Greengenes707]

Communist, with a capital C is a a political party whereas communist is someone who believes in an ideology.

That aside, I've heard of DIY epistar multichip arrays bringing in over 1gpw when underdriven and properly cooled.

Have them grow with a CXA side by side...to many variable going on if not done side by side from the same grower. The grower being the biggest variable.

If doing well with cheap less efficient chips...then will do that much better when they can put more photons onto the canopy with less watts.

 

[churchhaze]

Better than people trying to flower with cfl though, right? The appeal to the epistar arrays is that they're 10 dollars for the equivalent of a vero 29 in power output.

I personally have no plans to use the epistar whites (fine with veros at the moment), but it seems like a good competitor to HPS if it can get 1+ gpw with such a low startup cost.

I can't understand the cfl grows. Do the cree bulbs perform better than the epistar arrays when driven at a "DIY current" and cooled adequately?

Edit: the prebuilt chinese fixtures are no good for anything imo. Overdriven, undercooled crap. Fire hazard!

 

[Johnny Retro]

The way I look at it is youre paying extra for a rock solid warranty and ability to upgrade in the future for wholesale price. Everyones lights are eventually gona fail, id rather deal with an american company than a chinese one when that happens

 

[tip top toker]

What does watts have to do with anything? The entire debacle around LED is the quality of diodes etc, not wattage. Otherwise wed all be buying cheap ass shit off ebay. 5 minutes in the LED forum gives you more than enough information to understand that there is a hell of a lot at play, not just a number.

I've no experience in LEDs but ive a hell of a lot of experience in computers, and there is a reason that chinese brands seems to be able to offer more for the money, because they are typically crap! I eas brought up almost from day 1 with the phrase "made in china" and from kids toys to electronics, it has almost always held true. Buy cheap buy twice.

 

[churchhaze]

You'd be foolish to expect cree cxa like results at 1/6 the cost though.

But anything above 1g/W is nothing to sneeze at if the price is right.

 

[Greengenes707]

What does watts have to do with anything? The entire debacle around LED is the quality of diodes etc, not wattage. Otherwise wed all be buying cheap ass shit off ebay. 5 minutes in the LED forum gives you more than enough information to understand that there is a hell of a lot at play, not just a number.

I've no experience in LEDs but ive a hell of a lot of experience in computers, and there is a reason that chinese brands seems to be able to offer more for the money, because they are typically crap! I eas brought up almost from day 1 with the phrase "made in china" and from kids toys to electronics, it has almost always held true. Buy cheap buy twice.

Think things through more man...
Actually watts have a lot to do with it. The reason why people like to say watts don't matter is because there is so many different efficiencies being used across the board...led, hps, cfl, everything is a little different.
But that does not mean that watts are useless...just not created equally. They correspond to an output potential based on the efficiency.
Another way to look at it is µmols/w...and top bin led's are matching or exceeding even double ended hps(gavita=1.8µmols/w) by putting out 1.8-1.9µmols/w.. A cheap chinese chip/array could be as low as .7µmols/w. Notice how watts are an important part of the equation.

And when he is saying that 8 cxa's pulling 256w@800ma(basically 46-49% efficient) isn't living up to what light@what watts? Watts matter... specially if you know what you're talking about and use the efficiency of each source in your judgements.

You'd be foolish to expect cree cxa like results at 1/6 the cost though.
But anything above 1g/W is nothing to sneeze at if the price is right.

You're missing my point. If he is getting 1g/w with epi's...then he will improve by going to cxa or even veros. It's the physics of it that no matter what people say...you can't disprove/alter physics. The better chips put out more light/watt no matter spectrum it is or whatever. More light(from greater efficiency chips) will equal more yield.

Also people get 1g/w with cfl's and T5's. Not everyone...but it happens quite a lot. Again....not every grower is the same. By your logic if he is getting 1g/w than anyone can...which we all know isn't true.

Another thing I have been dying to bring up...
g/w is getting somewhat useless. Sure people are hitting over 1g/w...but are the maximizing the space??? For reference...1000w hps can do over 60grams/sqft in a 4x4...even at .8g/w it still hits 50g/sqft. So if someone is getting 1g/w@25w/sqft, great but...they are still a minimum 100% away from being an hps replacement.

 

[tip top toker]

Think things through more man...
Actually watts have a lot to do with it. The reason why people like to say watts don't matter is because there is so many different efficiencies being used across the board...led, hps, cfl, everything is a little different.
But that does not mean that watts are useless. They correspond to an output potential based on the efficiency.
Another way to look at it is µmols/w...and top bin led's are matching or exceeding even double ended hps(gavita=1.8µmols/w) by putting out 1.8-1.9µmols/w.. A cheap chinese chip/array could be as low as .7µmols/w. Notice how watts are an important part of the equation.

And when he is saying that 8 cxa's pulling 256w@800ma(basically 46-49% efficient) isn't living up to what light@what watts? Watts matter... specially if you know what you're talking about and use the efficiency of each source in your judgements.

You're missing my point. If he is getting 1g/w with epi's...then he will improve by going to cxa or even veros. It's the physics of it that no matter what people say...you can't disprove/alter physics. The better chips put out more light/joule of energy no matter spectrum it is or whatever. More light(from greater efficiency chips) will equal more yield.

Also people get 1g/w with cfl's and T5's. Not everyone...but it happens quite a lot. Again....not every grower is the same. By your logic if he is getting 1g/w than anyone can...which we all know isn't true.

Another thing I have been dying to bring up...
g/w is getting somewhat useless. Sure people are hitting over 1g/w...but are the maximizing the space??? For reference...1000w hps can do over 60grams/sqft in a 4x4...even at .8g/w it still hits 50g/sqft. So if someone is getting 1g/w@25w/sqft, great but...they are still a minimum 100% away from being an hps replacement.

Why are you talking about hps? This is about LED. The OP seems to be under the impression that more watts (talking about just LED lighting) is better. Thats like saying if a car has more HP it woll be faster. There are far more variables at play over the capability of an LED light than simply price per watt.

 

[churchhaze]

I'm not saying whether it is or isn't a good idea to go the extra mile and go cxa, and totally agree that g/W isn't very meaningful. My point was that it sounds like a viable low budget route. Maybe at that price point, HPS or CMH would be a better choice? I honestly don't know.

Do you really think that cfl still has it's place though? Sure, maybe an expert grower can get a decent yield, but by your same logic, they'd probably yield way more given the same setup with HPS, cree bulbs, epistar multichip, or cxa.

 

[Greengenes707]

I'm not saying whether it is or isn't a good idea to go the extra mile and go cxa, and totally agree that g/W isn't very meaningful. My point was mainly that it sounds like a viable low budget route. Maybe at that price point, HPS or CMH would be a better choice? I honestly don't know.

Do you really think that cfl still has it's place though? Sure, maybe an expert grower can get a decent yield, but by your same logic, they'd probably yield way more given the same setup with HPS, cree bulbs, epistar multichip, or cxa.

Yes they would and that is my whole point.
If one is doing well and they go to something more efficient still pulling the same wattage...then they will improve that much. It's won't be directly proportional to the increase in efficiency between them...but I guarantee a substantial increase

Honestly, if not using something more or at least equal to hps in efficiency then why use it?