Would you support universal basic income if it meant eliminating all other social safety net progs?

[Padawanbater2]

Depends.

How much is that "free" $1500 gonna cost me? Because we all know you are gonna have to tax the shit out of someone for their to be handout funds.

How does that apply to whether or not you would continue to work if you received a $1,500/month UBI?

 

[spandy]

How does that apply to whether or not you would continue to work if you received a $1,500/month UBI?

The money has to come from somewhere. Our shop and rentals do well, and we'd be taxed up our asses to support UBI.

I'd be bitter, and the wife loves to fish more than I do, so we'd be too busy for work.

 

[ginwilly]

How does that apply to whether or not you would continue to work if you received a $1,500/month UBI?

If we have the 1,500/month UBI, how many people are now willing to work for min-wage to clean shit off of floors at fast food joints? Nobody willing to work for less than 15-20 an hour how much do you think that will affect the cost of living?

Now the 1,500/month isn't enough to live off of, do you raise it to 1800? or just subsidize those who aren't also working? If you get an extra subsidy for not working, NOW how much do we have to pay for the menial teenager/HS drop out type jobs? If we raise it to 1800 for everyone, we have less people that need to work driving labor costs even higher, do you think this will affect the cost of living again? Can you see the rinse repeat cycle?

 

[spandy]

If we have the 1,500/month UBI, how many people are now willing to work for min-wage to clean shit off of floors at fast food joints? Nobody willing to work for less than 15-20 an hour how much do you think that will affect the cost of living?

Now the 1,500/month isn't enough to live off of, do you raise it to 1800? or just subsidize those who aren't also working? If you get an extra subsidy for not working, NOW how much do we have to pay for the menial teenager/HS drop out type jobs? If we raise it to 1800 for everyone, we have less people that need to work driving labor costs even higher, do you think this will affect the cost of living again? Can you see the rinse repeat cycle?

I see it now. Pull up to service station, but no one is there. Coffee shop closed, no shake and burger today.

But I bet that bill to keep my neighbors 1500 monthly check coming is in the mail box.

 

[UncleBuck]

Depends.

How much is that "free" $1500 gonna cost me? Because we all know you are gonna have to tax the shit out of someone for their to be handout funds.

no. simply no. inform yourself before opening your mouth and removing all doubt in the future if possible.

i know this is likely not possible for you.

 

[Padawanbater2]

If we have the 1,500/month UBI, how many people are now willing to work for min-wage to clean shit off of floors at fast food joints? Nobody willing to work for less than 15-20 an hour how much do you think that will affect the cost of living?

Now the 1,500/month isn't enough to live off of, do you raise it to 1800? or just subsidize those who aren't also working? If you get an extra subsidy for not working, NOW how much do we have to pay for the menial teenager/HS drop out type jobs? If we raise it to 1800 for everyone, we have less people that need to work driving labor costs even higher, do you think this will affect the cost of living again? Can you see the rinse repeat cycle?

Essentially what you're saying is that there's a mechanism inherent in capitalism that requires poverty for it to succeed. In order for people to be rich, there has to be a portion of the population who also have to be poor..

What does that tell you about capitalism?

I disagree with your opinion that if the amount of income a person receives increases, prices of goods/services automatically increase to the maximum allowed potential, too. Supply/demand coupled with market competition is what drives prices, not potential buying power, ie. income.

 

[UncleBuck]

If we have the 1,500/month UBI, how many people are now willing to work for min-wage to clean shit off of floors at fast food joints? Nobody willing to work for less than 15-20 an hour how much do you think that will affect the cost of living?

Now the 1,500/month isn't enough to live off of, do you raise it to 1800? or just subsidize those who aren't also working? If you get an extra subsidy for not working, NOW how much do we have to pay for the menial teenager/HS drop out type jobs? If we raise it to 1800 for everyone, we have less people that need to work driving labor costs even higher, do you think this will affect the cost of living again? Can you see the rinse repeat cycle?

I see it now. Pull up to service station, but no one is there. Coffee shop closed, no shake and burger today.

But I bet that bill to keep my neighbors 1500 monthly check coming is in the mail box.

no. simply no.

businesses in denmark are still open, and big macs only cost $0.58 more. the tradeoff is that no one ever goes into medical debt and min wage is $20 an hour.

sounds horrible, right?

 

[UncleBuck]

Essentially what you're saying is that there's a mechanism inherent in capitalism that requires poverty for it to succeed. In order for people to be rich, there has to be a portion of the population who also have to be poor..

What does that tell you about capitalism?

I disagree with your opinion that if the amount of income a person receives increases, prices of goods/services automatically increase to the maximum allowed potential, too. Supply/demand coupled with market competition is what drives prices, not potential buying power, ie. income.

you should try drawing it in crayon for these people.

actually, no, that will not get it through to them. maybe if you got fox news to make it a talking point they'd believe it. actually, they would definitely believe it if that were the case.

 

[ginwilly]

Essentially what you're saying is that there's a mechanism inherent in capitalism that requires poverty for it to succeed. In order for people to be rich, there has to be a portion of the population who also have to be poor..

What does that tell you about capitalism?

I disagree with your opinion that if the amount of income a person receives increases prices of goods/services automatically increase to the maximum allowed potential, too. Supply/demand coupled with market competition is what drives prices, not potential buying power, ie. income.

Not saying that at all. Those are the voices in your head saying that.

I'm basing mine simply on supply and demand. You are going to be taking a shit load of the labor supply out of the market, this will cause labor to be worth more, which means they will be paid more. This will cause prices to increase and this will mean that your 1500 doesn't go as far. It's not rocket surgery, it's simply the LAW of supply and demand.

It's like the immigration subject. I'm for opening borders and letting everyone in. I just want people to realize that the more unskilled labor we allow in, the cheaper labor gets. Hope you understand how that works.

It's not something that would happen overnight. We could probably live large for maybe an entire generation before we screw over the next. If you are the "fuck em" type, then by all means, great idea, run up some more debt.

As long as we are used as the world's currency we can get away with it. How long will the rest of the world allow us to be the only country to print indefinite debt? I fear that answer is coming soon even without your ponzi scheme.

Simplistic, childlike, feel good thinking.

 

[Padawanbater2]

Not saying that at all. Those are the voices in your head saying that.

I'm basing mine simply on supply and demand. You are going to be taking a shit load of the labor supply out of the market, this will cause labor to be worth more, which means they will be paid more. This will cause prices to increase and this will mean that your 1500 doesn't go as far. It's not rocket surgery, it's simply the LAW of supply and demand.

It's like the immigration subject. I'm for opening borders and letting everyone in. I just want people to realize that the more unskilled labor we allow in, the cheaper labor gets. Hope you understand how that works.

It's not something that would happen overnight. We could probably live large for maybe an entire generation before we screw over the next. If you are the "fuck em" type, then by all means, great idea, run up some more debt.

As long as we are used as the world's currency we can get away with it. How long will the rest of the world allow us to be the only country to print indefinite debt? I fear that answer is coming soon even without your ponzi scheme.

Simplistic, childlike, feel good thinking.

Similar to mathematics, if you start with a flawed premise you will end up with a flawed conclusion..

"..they will be paid more. This will cause prices to increase.." is where we disagree. You apparently believe raising employees wages will automatically increase the price of the goods or services they provide.. You apparently fail to acknowledge the exorbitant wages and benefits American CEO's and other executives enjoy even if their ventures fail. 50 years ago, top executives earned 25-50 times as much as their average employee, even to someone like me that seems very fair. Today, that number has increased to 325.. 500.. and even in some cases 1,500 times on average... This is unacceptable, and is the true reason prices rise. Executives are unwilling to share the profits with their employees (who provide the product), & executives are unwilling to take a cut in their pay to continue offering the same product to you, the consumer, at the same price. Here you are condemning the worker for asking for a working wage instead of condemning the executives for not cutting a fraction of their profits to take home $540,000 instead of $565,000 for the third quarter..

If you're concerned with prices rising if employees wages rise, your focus should be on the amount of money executives make, not their employees, because it's hundreds, if not thousands of times more..

 

[ginwilly]

Similar to mathematics, if you start with a flawed premise you will end up with a flawed conclusion..

"..they will be paid more. This will cause prices to increase.." is where we disagree. You apparently believe raising employees wages will automatically increase the price of the goods or services they provide.. You apparently fail to acknowledge the exorbitant wages and benefits American CEO's and other executives enjoy even if their ventures fail. 50 years ago, top executives earned 25-50 times as much as their average employee, even to someone like me that seems very fair. Today, that number has increased to 325.. 500.. and even in some cases 1,500 times on average... This is unacceptable, and is the true reason prices rise. Executives are unwilling to share the profits with their employees (who provide the product), & executives are unwilling to take a cut in their pay to continue offering the same product to you, the consumer, at the same price. Here you are condemning the worker for asking for a working wage instead of condemning the executives for not cutting a fraction of their profits to take home $540,000 instead of $565,000 for the third quarter..

If you're concerned with prices rising if employees wages rise, your focus should be on the amount of money executives make, not their employees, because it's hundreds, if not thousands of times more..

So the major corporations can absorb the costs but the mom and pops can't. This means the major corporations pick up even more of the market share. Stop doing that please, stop making laws that isolate the small businesses and reward the conglomerate monsters. We have more than enough of those already. I would be willing to bet that most of the regulations that have caused the shift into monster corporations and away from the small businesses that built this country were also feel good childlike simplistic policies.

Go past 1st level man. When you think of regulations and policies like this, think what could the unintended consequences be? How does this help small business? How does this help the corporate monsters?

It's definitely worth talking about. I like that you are presenting ideas, it should be obvious to everyone that the way we are doing it now is not the best way.

We have 50 laboratories in this country. If not for the central planners taking the largest chunk, one of those labs could try something like this.

 

[sheskunk]

OAKLAND RAISES MINIMUM WAGE Oakland’s minimum wage went up to $12.25 on Monday. Many local restaurants are in support of the wage hike, and have been actively informing customers that prices will rise as a result.
http://www.berkeleyside.com/2015/03/06/bites-oakland-increases-minimum-wage-more/

Minimum wage up $3 in Oakland; may impact small businesses
It was what most people here wanted after 82 percent of voters in Oakland approved the minimum wage increase.

But small businesses are concerned about the impact of this hike.

Some had already warned clients that prices would go up in response to increasing costs.
http://abc7news.com/careers/small-businesses-expect-price-hike-with-wage-hike/541265/

Seattle restaurants going dark as $15 an hour minimum wage goes into effect
“With the minimum wage spike, however, he says that if restaurant owners made no changes, the labor cost in quick service restaurants would rise to 42 percent and in full service restaurants to 47 percent.”

Restaurant owners, expecting to operate on thinner margins, have tried to adapt in several ways including “higher menu prices, cheaper, lower-quality ingredients, reduced opening times, and cutting work hours and firing workers,” according to The Seattle Times and Seattle Eater magazine. As the Washington Policy Center points out, when these strategies are not enough, businesses close, “workers lose their jobs and the neighborhood loses a prized amenity.”
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/03/seattle_restaurants_going_dark_as_15_an_hour_minimum_wage_goes_into_effect.html


Oakland minimum-wage hike puts child caregivers in a jam
Workers who benefit from Oakland’s minimum wage hike might soon lose a service that enables them to work in the first place. It turns out the well-intentioned law is putting a financial squeeze on Oakland’s child care industry, leading some providers to panic.

“We’re scrambling to find ways to keep the doors open,” said Capt. Dan Williams, Alameda County coordinator of the Salvation Army. He says the added payroll costs of providing workers with a $12.25-an-hour wage have put his organization’s Booth Memorial Child Development Center and family shelter $146,000 over budget, which is “quite a bit for a facility that was barely making it as it was.”
http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Oakland-minimum-wage-hike-puts-child-caregivers-6135815.php



Pay no attention to what is really going on.

 

[Padawanbater2]

OAKLAND RAISES MINIMUM WAGE Oakland’s minimum wage went up to $12.25 on Monday. Many local restaurants are in support of the wage hike, and have been actively informing customers that prices will rise as a result.
http://www.berkeleyside.com/2015/03/06/bites-oakland-increases-minimum-wage-more/

Minimum wage up $3 in Oakland; may impact small businesses
It was what most people here wanted after 82 percent of voters in Oakland approved the minimum wage increase.

But small businesses are concerned about the impact of this hike.

Some had already warned clients that prices would go up in response to increasing costs.
http://abc7news.com/careers/small-businesses-expect-price-hike-with-wage-hike/541265/

Already addressed. Increasing costs are a result of greedy executives

Seattle restaurants going dark as $15 an hour minimum wage goes into effect
“With the minimum wage spike, however, he says that if restaurant owners made no changes, the labor cost in quick service restaurants would rise to 42 percent and in full service restaurants to 47 percent.”

Restaurant owners, expecting to operate on thinner margins, have tried to adapt in several ways including “higher menu prices, cheaper, lower-quality ingredients, reduced opening times, and cutting work hours and firing workers,” according to The Seattle Times and Seattle Eater magazine. As the Washington Policy Center points out, when these strategies are not enough, businesses close, “workers lose their jobs and the neighborhood loses a prized amenity.”
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/03/seattle_restaurants_going_dark_as_15_an_hour_minimum_wage_goes_into_effect.html

Same shit; Cut your quality, keep my wages, fuck you. This is simply bad business. If a business owner wants to stay in business, he needs to offer a product that is high quality and competitive in price. Your model seems to favor the executives, my business model favors the worker.

Oakland minimum-wage hike puts child caregivers in a jam
Workers who benefit from Oakland’s minimum wage hike might soon lose a service that enables them to work in the first place. It turns out the well-intentioned law is putting a financial squeeze on Oakland’s child care industry, leading some providers to panic.

“We’re scrambling to find ways to keep the doors open,” said Capt. Dan Williams, Alameda County coordinator of the Salvation Army. He says the added payroll costs of providing workers with a $12.25-an-hour wage have put his organization’s Booth Memorial Child Development Center and family shelter $146,000 over budget, which is “quite a bit for a facility that was barely making it as it was.”
http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Oakland-minimum-wage-hike-puts-child-caregivers-6135815.php

Pay no attention to what is really going on.

THINK OF THE CHILDRENZ!

 

[sheskunk]

I knew you'd deny reality.

And it's not "my model". It's just a few links I found with a simple GOOGLE search. You should try it sometime. It would save you having to ask so many questions.

 

[god1]

Essentially what you're saying is that there's a mechanism inherent in capitalism that requires poverty for it to succeed. In order for people to be rich, there has to be a portion of the population who also have to be poor..

What does that tell you about capitalism?

I disagree with your opinion that if the amount of income a person receives increases, prices of goods/services automatically increase to the maximum allowed potential, too. Supply/demand coupled with market competition is what drives prices, not potential buying power, ie. income.

If it's really so bad here why stick around?

Give up your citizenship and go live in some socialistic utopia of your choosing.

I suspect you're all blather with a chip on your shoulder and maybe not enough brain power to figure out how to change your life style.

 

[UncleBuck]

Those are the voices in your head saying that.

I knew you'd deny reality.

hilarious coming from you two.

 

[Padawanbater2]

If it's really so bad here why stick around?

Give up your citizenship and go live in some socialistic utopia of your choosing.

I suspect you're all blather with a chip on your shoulder and maybe not enough brain power to figure out how to change your life style.

You're welcome to think whatever you want

 

[god1]

You're welcome to think whatever you want

It's a serious question, if you dislike the economic system here so much why stay?

Our system defiantly has it's flaws, but trying to turn it into socialistic/welfare state isn't worth the effort when you consider there's "ready made" stuff to choose from.

 

[Padawanbater2]

It's a serious question, if you dislike the economic system here so much why stay?

Our system defiantly has it's flaws, but trying to turn it into socialistic/welfare state isn't worth the effort when you consider there's "ready made" stuff to choose from.

Because, acknowledging the flaws, it is the best system available

Right, said stuffs require no improvisation...

 

[Rob Roy]

Separation of church and state. I guess not everyone thinks that way.

I guess you have a deep hidden meaning in this post and only people like you can understand it.