Finding A Second Light For My Flowering Room

[GroErr]

I'm confused about ballasts for CMH. I thought CMH required an electronic/digital ballast.

1. It sounds like it will work with ordinary magnetic ballasts (hyroot, dawg and you). In what ways would digital or magnetic make a difference?

2. Dawg (above) said he runs his CMH bulb on an HPS ballast. In what way would that matter (compared to using an MH ballast)?

3. Yesterday this guy found a $90 120v/240v switchable (MH/HPS) digital ballast system. Could a person use an Agro All-Start CMH bulb in this?

Thanks.

It is somewhat confusing because there's different bulbs/technology but they call them CMH. Key is the All-start lines will run on standard ballasts. The Elite Agro line which only come in 210w and 315w ONLY (anyone that tells you different doesn't know what they're talking about and probably trying to rip you off) require a specific ballast to fire them. Philips of course makes one, plus you can see a couple of 3rd party companies are now making them, but those Elite Agro's will not fire on a standard MH/HPS ballast regardless of whether it's digital or magnetic.

Spec-wise the Elite Agro 315's are more efficient, likely slightly cooler. In practice I've never seen a side by side so can't comment on whether the Elite Agro's are better than the All-Start's. I can vouch for the 315w Elite Agro's, they grow some very nice quality and quantity, easy to get 1 gpw with a decent producing strain and well above that if things are tuned in. I've been running them for over a year and wouldn't switch to anything other than maybe run a combo with some COBs.

 

[az2000]

Key is the All-start lines will run on standard ballasts. The Elite Agro line which only come in 210w and 315w ONLY ... require a specific ballast to fire them.

Thanks! I understand this topic better now. I googled about running MH in HPS ballasts. It sounds like it needs to be the same wattage as the bulb and the only downside is warmer spectrum and reduced life of the bulb.

It sounds like an All-Start CMH bulb could run in that $90 HPS kit I linked to two posts above. That's switchable MH/HPS, selectable 250/400/600w. Hyroot linked to a 330w All-Start bulb on Amazon. That bulb says it's a 400w replacement. I assume that bulb would work ok in that kit's ballast if the ballast were set to 400w and MH. (I assume matching bulb wattage to ballast wattage works like that. You don't need a specific 330w ballast.).

It sounds like another difference is that the All-Start bulbs are horizontal and the Agro-Elites (requiring digital ballast) run vertical. I wonder if there is much difference in heat between the two. (I recall reading the vertical orientation reduces radiant heat.).

That Advanced system you linked to looks like a good deal for a digital ballast and Elite bulb. By the time someone adds a All-Start CMH bulb to the $90 kit they're at $150. The extra $50 is probably worth the electronic ballast. (But, then you have to buy a reflector.).

 

[az2000]

It is somewhat confusing because there's different bulbs/technology but they call them CMH. Key is the All-start lines will run on standard ballasts. The Elite Agro line which only come in 210w and 315w ONLY ... require a specific ballast to fire them.

2. Dawg (above) said he runs his CMH bulb on an HPS ballast. In what way would that matter (compared to using an MH ballast)?

I just realized Dawg referred to a third type of bulb, an HPS retro.[1] That's why I went onto a tangent about running CMH on an HPS ballast. It sounds like that's not something anyone should do unless they have this "HPS Retro" CMH bulb which isn't called All-start.

I understand this much better now. I recommend CMH sometimes. I think I can fill in the blanks better now.

[1]
https://www.rollitup.org/t/finding-a-second-light-for-my-flowering-room.891867/#post-12124240
https://www.rollitup.org/t/finding-a-second-light-for-my-flowering-room.891867/#post-12124539

 

[GroErr]

Thanks! I understand this topic better now. I googled about running MH in HPS ballasts. It sounds like it needs to be the same wattage as the bulb and the only downside is warmer spectrum and reduced life of the bulb.

It sounds like an All-Start CMH bulb could run in that $90 HPS kit I linked to two posts above. That's switchable MH/HPS, selectable 250/400/600w. Hyroot linked to a 330w All-Start bulb on Amazon. That bulb says it's a 400w replacement. I assume that bulb would work ok in that kit's ballast if the ballast were set to 400w and MH. (I assume matching bulb wattage to ballast wattage works like that. You don't need a specific 330w ballast.).

It sounds like another difference is that the All-Start bulbs are horizontal and the Agro-Elites (requiring digital ballast) run vertical. I wonder if there is much difference in heat between the two. (I recall reading the vertical orientation reduces radiant heat.).

That Advanced system you linked to looks like a good deal for a digital ballast and Elite bulb. By the time someone adds a All-Start CMH bulb to the $90 kit they're at $150. The extra $50 is probably worth the electronic ballast. (But, then you have to buy a reflector.).

Yeah that advanced tech is a great deal for a bare-bulb setup with these Elite Agro's. The one they provide in the kit for $200 is a standard mogul base too so it's easy to add any standard reflector if needed/wanted.

 

[JohnCee]

I might not be going in the right direction, but where is what I have came up with on my own amazon search:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HXOJ1FG
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KM1DS9W
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052W2022

Comes out to like $297 before shipping. Am I going in the right direction -- would that be everything that I would need? Does the reflector come with the socket that fits the bulb, or do I have to purchase the socket which could be mounted to the reflector? I'm not sure that I could get it any cheaper.. just trying to get the best bang for my buck. Thoughts?

 

[Stephenj37826]

I might not be going in the right direction, but where is what I have came up with on my own amazon search:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HXOJ1FG
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KM1DS9W
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052W2022

Comes out to like $297 before shipping. Am I going in the right direction -- would that be everything that I would need? Does the reflector come with the socket that fits the bulb, or do I have to purchase the socket which could be mounted to the reflector? I'm not sure that I could get it any cheaper.. just trying to get the best bang for my buck. Thoughts?

Not sure about 400 on that 315cmh. Here you go

http://growershouse.com/phantom-cmh-reflector-ballast-and-bulb-kit

 

[Stephenj37826]

Also this is really cheap. The 315 is better and more efficient but this is a bargain really.

http://www.amazon.com/HTG-Supply-400-Watt-Complete-Included/dp/B0189JYIK6/ref=pd_sim_sbs_86_4?ie=UTF8&dpID=51oSRFOL0HL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=0TYYRP301W1X475ZY972

 

[az2000]

I might not be going in the right direction, but where is what I have came up with on my own amazon search:

I don't know a lot about it, but from what I gathered from a day or two ago in this thread, you need an Phillips All-Start CMH bulb to use with that ballast, like this one (which hyroot linked to). That bulb is Mogul E39, same as the reflector you linked to.

I'm not clear about whether those All-Starts can/should be mounted vertically or horizontally. I get the impression the Elites are supposed to be mounted vertically.

 

[GroErr]

I might not be going in the right direction, but where is what I have came up with on my own amazon search:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HXOJ1FG
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KM1DS9W
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052W2022

Comes out to like $297 before shipping. Am I going in the right direction -- would that be everything that I would need? Does the reflector come with the socket that fits the bulb, or do I have to purchase the socket which could be mounted to the reflector? I'm not sure that I could get it any cheaper.. just trying to get the best bang for my buck. Thoughts?

The bulb is right, that ballast won't fire these Elite bulbs though. The reflector would need a converter as it has a mogul base and the bulb is a T12. You'd be cheaper to buy the bulb/ballast kit from advanced tech linked above, then buy that reflector you linked to, no converter needed, just plug it all in for $250 before shipping. Or go for that Phantom kit at growershouse which is $300 with the 10% off.

 

[rkymtnman]

Ive Been running CMH For Years Now Using A Magnetic Ballast On The HPS Setting

http://advancedtechlighting.com/p-5497.pdf

i've been running off and on the same for years myself. too bad they don't make the retro white bulbs 400cmh anymore.

 

[rkymtnman]

The bulb is right, that ballast won't fire these Elite bulbs though. The reflector would need a converter as it has a mogul base and the bulb is a T12. You'd be cheaper to buy the bulb/ballast kit from advanced tech linked above, then buy that reflector you linked to, no converter needed, just plug it all in for $250 before shipping. Or go for that Phantom kit at growershouse which is $300 with the 10% off.

i thought that cmh kit from advanced tech was only for 240v? further down the page, doesn't it show you needing a step-up transformer to run at 120v? i've got a lack of 240v in my house which is the reason i'm asking.

 

[GroErr]

i thought that cmh kit from advanced tech was only for 240v? further down the page, doesn't it show you needing a step-up transformer to run at 120v? i've got a lack of 240v in my house which is the reason i'm asking.

Yes, that's the catch with that kit from advanced tech. It's a great deal and uses a standard mogul socket so it eliminates the need for any converters, but it comes only in 220/240v. Those 120v down converters aren't expensive, typically around $50, but it is another component and potential point of failure. uif you need 120v, that Phantom kit at growershouse is probably your best bet as it claims to run on both 120/240v, may want to confirm with them but that's what it looks like. Overall for 120v imo that would be a better option, all-in for $300. For $300 I'd choose the Elite Agro 315w over any other option like the 330's or certainly over any 400w hps, these 315's will easily out-produce 400w hps and run cooler.

 

[rkymtnman]

Yes, that's the catch with that kit from advanced tech. It's a great deal and uses a standard mogul socket so it eliminates the need for any converters, but it comes only in 220/240v. Those 120v down converters aren't expensive, typically around $50, but it is another component and potential point of failure. uif you need 120v, that Phantom kit at growershouse is probably your best bet as it claims to run on both 120/240v, may want to confirm with them but that's what it looks like. Overall for 120v imo that would be a better option, all-in for $300. For $300 I'd choose the Elite Agro 315w over any other option like the 330's or certainly over any 400w hps, these 315's will easily out-produce 400w hps and run cooler.

thanks. i'll check out that Phantom option. right now i'm running a 400cmh (like the Dawg) and a 400hps together under one open reflector. heat is marginal problem now but in summer will be a problem.

do you think one 315 will replace my 2 bulb setup now?

i've also thought about giving what ttystick does with 860cdm a try. for less than 200 i can get the bulb and mag ballast.

 

[GroErr]

thanks. i'll check out that Phantom option. right now i'm running a 400cmh (like the Dawg) and a 400hps together under one open reflector. heat is marginal problem now but in summer will be a problem.

do you think one 315 will replace my 2 bulb setup now?

i've also thought about giving what ttystick does with 860cdm a try. for less than 200 i can get the bulb and mag ballast.

No, I'd replace them with 2x 315's, imo you'll end up around the same output pulling 200w less. No thoughts or experience on the 860's, it is different tech/spectrum though and it seems like they pull close to 1100w with the ballast according to @ttystikk so you're in another range for wattage/cost of operation.

 

[rkymtnman]

No, I'd replace them with 2x 315's, imo you'll end up around the same output pulling 200w less. No thoughts or experience on the 860's, it is different tech/spectrum though and it seems like they pull close to 1100w with the ballast according to @ttystikk so you're in another range for wattage/cost of operation.

yeah, his 1100 watts would pose a possible problem. i'd have to get creative wiht running a refrigerator off a different circuit than my lights.

so you think in a 3x4x8 area, would 1 or 2 of the 315's be better?? i've seen some people on here say that 1 will cover a 4x4 adequately. that doesn't sound like enough to me but i'm no expert

 

[GroErr]

yeah, his 1100 watts would pose a possible problem. i'd have to get creative wiht running a refrigerator off a different circuit than my lights.

so you think in a 3x4x8 area, would 1 or 2 of the 315's be better?? i've seen some people on here say that 1 will cover a 4x4 adequately. that doesn't sound like enough to me but i'm no expert

That's a better way to put it, if it's a 3x4 area you could run one, two would work but may be wasting a lot of light/power for questionable gain. They cover a 3.5 x 3.5' footprint really well at ~20-22" above canopy, with the right strain/yielder you could pull a lb. from that space with a single light, not bad efficiency for 385w total @120v or 345w total @220/240v (incl. ballast and down converter for 120v). With 8ft. height you'd run a heck of a lot cooler than your current setup so you'd gain some efficiency there as well. Perhaps 1x through summer and 2x through winter or even better, throw together 2x CXA or CXB COB fixtures pulling about 100w each to cover the long ends and run year round without worrying about heat issues and great efficiency/yields.

 

[ttystikk]

COB LED for the win and to future proof your investment. There's not even a huge price increase to swallow anymore; you can DIY a really nice 200W COB panel that will demolish the 315W light for less than $400.

Next best option is 315W CMH, don't try to light more than a square yard per, they just aren't that much stronger. The equivalency seems to be around 400W of HPS, so three of these gives similar yield to two 600W HPS lamps... but frostier!

 

[GroErr]

COB LED for the win and to future proof your investment. There's not even a huge price increase to swallow anymore; you can DIY a really nice 200W COB panel that will demolish the 315W light for less than $400.

Next best option is 315W CMH, don't try to light more than a square yard per, they just aren't that much stronger. The equivalency seems to be around 400W of HPS, so three of these gives similar yield to two 600W HPS lamps... but frostier!

Although I'd agree on the COBs being efficient and a great option, I'd like to see 200w demolish one of the 315w LEC's. Efficiency in the numbers would provide a basis for an argument, the problem is physically there's no way 200w of COBs would cover 3.5 x 3.5' as well as the 315w Sun Systems reflector.

 

[rkymtnman]

That's a better way to put it, if it's a 3x4 area you could run one, two would work but may be wasting a lot of light/power for questionable gain. They cover a 3.5 x 3.5' footprint really well at ~20-22" above canopy, with the right strain/yielder you could pull a lb. from that space with a single light, not bad efficiency for 385w total @120v or 345w total @220/240v (incl. ballast and down converter for 120v). With 8ft. height you'd run a heck of a lot cooler than your current setup so you'd gain some efficiency there as well. Perhaps 1x through summer and 2x through winter or even better, throw together 2x CXA or CXB COB fixtures pulling about 100w each to cover the long ends and run year round without worrying about heat issues and great efficiency/yields.

thanks @GroErr . give me something to think about for my next run. you too @ttystikk for your COB info.

 

[ttystikk]

Although I'd agree on the COBs being efficient and a great option, I'd like to see 200w demolish one of the 315w LEC's. Efficiency in the numbers would provide a basis for an argument, the problem is physically there's no way 200w of COBs would cover 3.5 x 3.5' as well as the 315w Sun Systems reflector.

Again, I disagree. Four COB LED chips make up that 200W and they can easily be spread around the tent however you like. Four light sources are better than one for lighting a flat surface evenly, any day.

It sounds like you're describing a 1m² footprint. Four CXB3590 chips at 50W apiece would kick ass in there. It would be very close vs 315W CMH and I'd still take the COBs. If the performance wasn't quite what you hoped for, add another 200W setup and that will definitely do the job... FOREVER, since the things won't likely need a chip replacement for ten years or more of continuous use.

@littlejacob isn't this about the size of your tent? Perhaps you can shed some more light on the subject!