Reverse Engineering everyone's nutrients

MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
Redoctober said:
So it seems that it was the Agsil (silica) causing the problems. You are right churchhaze!
I did an experiment where I mixed 3, 1.5-gallon buckets of salts separately with RO water - sulfates & phosphates in #1, Calcium Nitrate in #2, and Magnesium sulfate in #3
Then poured a little bit of each into a forth bucket one at a time to see if there was any precipitate...there was not...with any combo of the three
So then I poured them all into one 5-gal bucket...still no precipitate
I then moved on to the Agsil
I filled a bucket with about 2 gallons of RO water and added the amount of Agsil I needed
I then split that into 2 buckets, and pH adjusted one of them down to about 6.2 and left the other one where it was at about 11
I then poured a small amount of my newly mixed 3-part nutrient solution into both and viola!
The one at pH-11 turned instantly cloudy, while the other that had been pH adjusted to 6.2, remained clear
You can see the resultant pH of each solution in the pix below. The nutrient solution itself was acidic so it brought the pH of each Agsil bucket down a bit
The very last pic is the precipitate of the cloudy bucket after settling for about 10 minutes

Finally one last test...I poured a small amount of nutrient solution into a clean bucket and poured about 10mL of Agsil stock concentrate (same dilution as proTekt bacically) into it
You can see the resultant swirling cloud of liquid Agsil in the pics
That was what happened when I mixed my entire rez last time

It seems the high pH of the Agsil was causing this cloudiness. This is very similar to when you pour undiluted pH up or down into a rez (which I found out isn't such a great idea) and you see that cloud of liquid that you then have to stir into solution
The swirling cloud of Agsil did dissipate upon stirring, and I couldn't detect any precipitate
I couldn't tell if it had gone into solution and dissolved, or bound something and precipitated out
This will definitely make me rethink how I mix and apply nutrient salts because I had been using Agsil as a pH-up agent
Perhaps it's okay to do this as long as its diluted in some water before applying to the rez?
Click to expand...

TBH, I'd just use the potassium silicate as a foliar spray. I recommend potassium carbonate or potassium hydroxide as a pH-up reagent.
 
Redoctober

Redoctober

Well-Known Member
That was going to be my next question haha! Which would you go with, the hydroxide or the carbonate?
I get precipitous pH drops every day e.g. rez goes from 6.1 down to 4.4 in 24 hours
this is partially why I've been adding so much Silica

Do you have any recommendations for buffer salts that would help stabilize the pH but not throw off my mix too much?
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
Potassium Hydroxide is the strong base that forms with the conjugate weak acid carbonic acid. So, both will do the exact same thing.

TBH, I can't make a recommendation without knowing how your water quality changes.
 
Carolina Dream'n

Carolina Dream'n

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
That's my thinking; I use Dyna-Gro brand potassium silicate, I apply it at 15ml/gal, it raises leaf surface pH to help ward off powdery mildew, acts as a fertilizer and makes itself accessible to the plant right where it's needed.

The obvious next question is, could you reverse engineer it for me? I'm not familiar with the powder mentioned above and so I'm not sure if it's the same stuff.
Click to expand...
I bout hydro-gardens potassium silicate. It's 20 bucks a gallon and 10 times more concentrated than dyna grows. Adding 250ml of that into an old gallon jug of protekt filling up the rest with RO gives me something close to Protekt. I'm not looking for exact, just roughly 20 ppms of potassium silicate which came out to around 5ml per gallon
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
Carolina Dream'n said:
I bout hydro-gardens potassium silicate. It's 20 bucks a gallon and 10 times more concentrated than dyna grows. Adding 250ml of that into an old gallon jug of protekt filling up the rest with RO gives me something close to Protekt. I'm not looking for exact, just roughly 20 ppms of potassium silicate which came out to around 5ml per gallon
Click to expand...
Add potassium silicate powder in a concentration of 20 mg/L.
 
riznob10000

riznob10000

Well-Known Member
Potassium Silicate products should be kept out of any stock solutions and added to your rez first, before anything else, to avoid precipitation. Also, for a cheap alternative to any of the bottled silica adds (pro-tekt, silica blast, armor si, etc) which all give you extra, and in most cases unnecessary, potassium, you can always add some Diatomaceous Earth, which is Diatomite, which is a naturally occurring silica product, and is safe for virtually everything except inhaling, and can be added to your rez at any stage without worry of precipitation, or added potassium. I also throw about a cup into each bag of coco/soil/soiless mix that I use, for extra silica at transplant, as well as insect control. Works like a charm!
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
riznob10000 said:
Potassium Silicate products should be kept out of any stock solutions and added to your rez first, before anything else, to avoid precipitation. Also, for a cheap alternative to any of the bottled silica adds (pro-tekt, silica blast, armor si, etc) which all give you extra, and in most cases unnecessary, potassium, you can always add some Diatomaceous Earth, which is Diatomite, which is a naturally occurring silica product, and is safe for virtually everything except inhaling, and can be added to your rez at any stage without worry of precipitation, or added potassium. I also throw about a cup into each bag of coco/soil/soiless mix that I use, for extra silica at transplant, as well as insect control. Works like a charm!
Click to expand...
It's not water soluble so it won't work in hydro, bro.
 
gand3r

gand3r

Active Member
The iron I can get has different PH range. Do I get the iron in the pH range I need, ie 5.5 - 6.2?
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
gand3r said:
The iron I can get has different PH range. Do I get the iron in the pH range I need, ie 5.5 - 6.2?
Click to expand...
EDTA Chelated iron is the the stuff that works best in the pH range you just listed, that is, the best pH range for hydroponics applications.. EDHHA chelates work best in a slightly higher pH range.

But if you're thinking about using potassium silicate in a hydroponics system, it's best to not use it in a hydroponics systems. Use it as a foliar spray.
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
I use Iron DTPA, which is a little pricier than EDTA, but cheaper than EDHHA which is overkill for anyone's needs imo.

Of course any of them will work well.
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
I use Iron DTPA, which is a little pricier than EDTA, but cheaper than EDHHA which is overkill for anyone's needs imo.

Of course any of them will work well.
Click to expand...
That type of chelation has no effect. DTPA, EDTA, EDHHA, and citric acid are all just different types with different pH ranged. All of them can be found in different percentages. There is no "overkill" in this case as long as you know how to add what you need.
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
That type of chelation has no effect. DTPA, EDTA, EDHHA, and citric acid are all just different types with different pH ranged. All of them can be found in different percentages. There is no "overkill" in this case as long as you know how to add what you need.
Click to expand...
By "overkill", what I meant was overkill in terms of price. Being EDHHA is more stable than DTPA and EDTA, but it's the most expensive.
 
since1991

since1991

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
This one is interesting and I just learned some people are bad at reporting what their guaranteed analysis is or just bad a mixing nutrient blends.

The database at http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=5881 shows that it is a 3-2-6. Okay, no problem. But what they don't list there are calcium and sulfates. Here's the ionic bloom label: http://hdi.web2.webascender.com/media/wysiwyg/Documents/ionic/IonicBloomQT.JPG

Notice how it two of the compounds it's derived from are calcium nitrate and potassium sulfate there. A calcium sulfate precipitate will often form in the high concentrations these are made at. That is a huge waste. Seriously, go look at database again. No calcium and no sulfate in the guaranteed analysis.

In addition, they mix ammonium nitrate with the concentrated acid phosphoric acid. Hell, phosphoric acid is their only source of phosphorus. This MIGHT be bad. Never add a concentrated acid in with ammonium nitrate solution, specifically what is called AN-20, a liquid fertilizer form of ammonium nitrate. If they had pre-diluted everything, it wouldn't be so much of a problem.
Click to expand...
 
since1991

since1991

Well-Known Member
Ionic nutrients was formulated by Giles Gunstone and Dr. Carl Barry in Austrailia under thier company Growth Technology years ago. Getting all the minerals in the correct ratios (liquid) into one bottle was a problem for manufacturer's from way back. Mainly calcium and sulfer. It precipitates into gypsum and is not soluble (or hardly taken up into the roots). I dont know how they got around Guaranteed minimum analysis but Ionic has plenty of calcium and sulfer. But its proprietary and how they actually do it (HDI ..Lansing..GT sister company too) is a well guarded secret. Dr. Lynette Morgan for years (Suntec Austrailia ...Botanicare Arizona) has been trying to copy what they actually did. CNS 17 (Matrix Red and Blue) is the result and its not even close. Flora Nova one part from General Hydroponics....well lets just say there is a reason its such a heavy goopy mess. But it is effective.
 
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since1991

since1991

Well-Known Member
Anyone that has ran Dyna gro one part especially older bottles knows about the "chunks" of calcium precipitate in the bottom of the bottles. Dyna never got it right either but they were on the right track from the very early days of indoor horticulture. But Dynagro base nutes are notoriously low in sulpher to get around this. Small to medium Greenhouse growers back then that actually bought huge barrels of Dyna had to supplement with mag and potassium sulphate for vegetable crops. Formulating a liquid nutrient is actually very basic chemistry. There is no real reverse engineering involved unless your trying for a one part with no precipitation what so ever. Ionics Carl Barry did it right. The only one i know of . And Growth Tech/ HDI arent letting that one out for sure. Check out the book Hydroponic Nutrient Solutions by Carl Barry if you can find it. Its a great read. The only fault i see with Ionic one part is it takes 4 teaspoons to a gallon of water to put out an EC of around 1.4. But at 35$ a gallon....i been using it off and on for 20 years. I really like the ease of a simple effective one part. Its pretty crowded market now but if someone back in the day came out with a truly no precipitate but complete one part comcentrated solution (with some goodies like aminos, ascophylum and humics thrown in) and market the hell out of it with a cheaper than everyone else price....they would of cornered the market like Canna and the other players do now.
 
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since1991

since1991

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
EDTA Chelated iron is the the stuff that works best in the pH range you just listed, that is, the best pH range for hydroponics applications.. EDHHA chelates work best in a slightly higher pH range.

But if you're thinking about using potassium silicate in a hydroponics system, it's best to not use it in a hydroponics systems. Use it as a foliar spray.
Click to expand...
I always thought potassium silicate is much more effective applied to the root zone than a foliar spray. I know Harley Smith did the studies on that one. At least he told me he did.
 
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