Fast growth 24/7

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
WHAT'S THE HARM IN TRYING.
Lots of people (mysef inclused) on this forum are stuck in the way they do things. And it works. Because it works we dont like change.

If i was running 6 HID's id be on 18/6 to. 2 Cobs or like im doing using CFL's? 24/7 Thank you very much. Its easy..can check the plants whenever, stable temps ..no timer issues, extra lectricity cost is negligible, etc etc etc.
 

Uberknot

Well-Known Member
Lots of people (mysef inclused) on this forum are stuck in the way they do things. And it works. Because it works we dont like change.

If i was running 6 HID's id be on 18/6 to. 2 Cobs or like im doing using CFL's? 24/7 Thank you very much. Its easy..can check the plants whenever, stable temps ..no timer issues, extra lectricity cost is negligible, etc etc etc.

That's pretty much it....every person's lights and grow area is different and some can use other methods without much cost to ensure a stable growing environment which I think is the #1 thing first and foremost.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Lot of strange answers in this thread considering there is no substantial evidence to suggest that 24/0 provides better growth than 18/6.

Your plant can only absorb so much light at a time. Ever notice towards lights out, despite being perfectly moist, your plants will droop a little? That is because they can't process more energy at the moment. I don't have the scientific terms or evidence at the moment but do yourself a HUGE favor and just stick to 18/6 for your veg, maybe 20/4 if you feel like you just need some extra light.

Otherwise you're just making your electricity bill higher for minimal gains.
Light saturation point!
C3 plants get to that earlier in the "day" then most people think. The plant begins to change on the cellular peptide level to "protect" it's self from the light! This reduces all daytime plant actions by around 35%, including photosynthesis. The use of Co2 will delay this point enough for you to get most of that back! During the lights out or dark period the plant reverts to it's old self and is ready to use the sun at 100% capacity till that light saturation point is reached the next day. The LSP is also were oxygen "evolution" levels off and no higher photosynthesis rates are achieved....

C3 plants do not require a lights out time to grow (including cannabis). It is better for them in my book, to have a lights out period in veg. It has been shown that roots grow better during the "night"......Keep in mind the plant does other things at night that it does not during the day.....

This is one of those "hot button" topics (Like bringing up Forbid, NOT flushing and a few others and the morons come out to play)!
I choose to use a dark period.
Please feel free to choose what you feel works for you!
 
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Uberknot

Well-Known Member
Light saturation point!
C3 plants get to that earlier in the "day" then most people think. The plant begins to change on the cellular peptide level to "protect" it's self from the light! This reduces all daytime plant actions by around 35%, including photosynthesis. The use of Co2 will delay this point enough for you to get most of that back! During the lights out or dark period the plant reverts to it's old self and is ready to use the sun at 100% capacity till that light saturation point is reached the next day. The LSP is also were oxygen "evolution" levels off and no higher photosynthesis rates are achieved....

C3 plants do not require a lights out time to grow (including cannabis). It is better for them in my book, to have a lights out period in veg. It has been shown that roots grow better during the "night"......Keep in mind the plant does other things at night then it does during the day.....

This is one of those 'hot button" topics! I choose to use a dark period.
Please feel free to choose what you feel works for you!

Based on the Sun and it's saturation??

I am going to spend a few hours researching this. :D

Definitely worth knowing the effects of Sun vs Led.

There is such a thing as too much light, but you have really have to throw some serious light at them and have the lights too close.

This article here is interesting..they actually have tested this with over 100,000 lux.
 
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Lordhooha

Well-Known Member
My thing is I run solar panels on my roof to offset the cost of electric so when I ran hps hoods I was getting money back from the power company still.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Based on the Sun and it's saturation??

I am going to spend a few hours researching this. :D

Definitely worth knowing the effects of Sun vs Led.

There is such a thing as too much light, but you have really have to throw some serious light at them and have the lights too close.

This article here is interesting..they actually have tested this with over 100,000 lux.
Nope! NOT the same thing !! C3 plants do it early and C4 plants do it much later......Not a burning from being to close like. Not a "burn" at all. It's a point where chemical changes in the plant happen and growth is slowed. This slowing is working on several things the plant is doing it for. It's an actual photo-inhibition response buy the plant. Kind of a simple, general answer

Look for papers on the subject......I'm pretty sure I may have listed a good one a few years back....Search for light saturation point and use my screen name in as the parameter......If it's still here, it's a good one with all the nice chemical changes in botanical terms.....Not hard to understand if you didn't take college course's....

Try googling light saturation point in plants and light saturation point in C3 plants.....You should be able to find plenty of papers on it..
 

SPLFreak808

Well-Known Member
Well....I have at most 40 inches from top of pot to bottom of 4x3590's (875 min-1750 max mA) that's one thing. The other is the lights kill Humidity for me 50-65% w/lights on until I can find a dehumidifier. Once I kill lights because of the rainy season it's going to climb higher in the dark. Right now I am running Autoflower's so I can get away with it the whole grow atm.

The difference is 6 hours of 105w of power in my case so it's not much at all, but yeah I can see if you had 1000w running.

Once I get a Dehumidifier and can dial that in a little more I will feel comfortable turning lights off and not running 70%+ Humidity.

So does more stretch happen with less light intensity? Here I'll answer it...YES.

Esp when using LED or COBS because they lack penetration like the Sun.
Yup, you are using it as a tool and its working! Not bad for a 100w dehu lol, personally id just use some oscillating fans during lights out but i only say this because i have never gotten any mold. Would be a shame if i told you to change something and you get mold which is why im not going to argue your methods lol.
Nope! NOT the same thing !! C3 plants do it early and C4 plants do it much later......Not a burning from being to close like. Not a "burn" at all. It's a point where chemical changes in the plant happen and growth is slowed. This slowing is working on several things the plant is doing it for. It's an actual photo-inhibition response buy the plant. Kind of a simple, general answer

Look for papers on the subject......I'm pretty sure I may have listed a good one a few years back....Search for light saturation point and use my screen name in as the parameter......If it's still here, it's a good one with all the nice chemical changes in botanical terms.....Not hard to understand if you didn't take college course's....

Try googling light saturation point in plants and light saturation point in C3 plants.....You should be able to find plenty of papers on it..
I agree, I've tried 24/0 with a metal halide trying to speed up some girls but i ended up slowing them down because they couldnt keep up with chlorophyll production. They turned light green and took forever to get back into health.
 

Uberknot

Well-Known Member
SO what are the maximum photons allowed daily? I saw the - it might make THC to protect itself part. Then again most ruderalis strains had very little to no THC. I guess we could say they never saw enough light intensity? And what about Hemp?

You would be amazed at the crap I have read today.....most pot forums people just spread rumors.

Mostly what I have seen regarding cannabis is maybe if's and or but's and a few possibles thrown in. It's like looking up the last rumor or fad and a ton of pot forums gossip. Give me university studies....science....anything..otherwise this all sounds like any other forum Iooked at today. Specific to CANNABIS. I did find out Cannabis uses NO co2 during lights out....while some pot forums think they do.


Anyhow I have 3 books coming this week I'll read em one is Botany for cannabis. I have not seen anything that would suggest it's better to turn off the lights in veg or with an Autoflower. At least not yet.

IN fact I would say you could just dim the lights and that is just my Opinion.

But I'll go on another 3 hours wild goose chase right now ;)

Yup, you are using it as a tool and its working! Not bad for a 100w dehu lol, personally id just use some oscillating fans during lights out but i only say this because i have never gotten any mold. Would be a shame if i told you to change something and you get mold which is why im not going to argue your methods lol.

I agree, I've tried 24/0 with a metal halide trying to speed up some girls but i ended up slowing them down because they couldnt keep up with chlorophyll production. They turned light green and took forever to get back into health.

When I turn the fans on humidity goes up....SO I just use the intake circulation at times. I adjust lights like the sun goes up and down....when I turn them down it shoots up some.

I did find that if I point a fan straight down and let the air push out the sides to the plants that will work ok.

The only thing that will lower the humidity enough is going to be a dehumidifier in the tent this time of year for me. Basically they are useless or less effective when the temps drop and it's humid like in a house.
 
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Uberknot

Well-Known Member
Oh you want to hear something funny....lol....so many forums I read prior to starting this grow was oh dont over water dont over water.....I basically have been starving them from the pictures and overwatering threads. Last night I said fuck it and dumped a gallon ( 2 quarts each maybe more ) into the pots.....they are doing better than ever now. I've probably stunted the little auto's from lack of root growth and water and am just hoping they will grow a bit even after starting to flower.

I had about 1/2 run off by the time I cleaned that up....basically my soil went dry.

It is a lot about learning when growing anything and listening to forums can help, but it can also hurt.

Hell some folks said my light wouldn't work.....sob is putting it out I'll tell ya.

So pretty much unless I read it and it comes from legit sources I am going to be very very skeptical.
 
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Uberknot

Well-Known Member
Here is one thread here https://www.rollitup.org/t/cannabis-max-light-saturation-point-and-yield.841892/

i'm just asking, because i read somewhere that you cannot cool a lamp as you please , if you low too much your lamp temps it will disrupt somehow the lamp spectrum .. i'm only asking because of that . you should google about that ..
nothing saying its your case, just sharing info.
more info i guess...? forums stuff...

"Right now i have my 600w light 10 inches from the tops of my cola's, thats like 275% over the suns par, am i hurting my plants? They don't show any signs of light bleaching."


 
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Uberknot

Well-Known Member
This one talks about intensity....http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/yor/lightresdim.htm


Diminishing Returns
When indoor growers think of diminishing returns it's usually in terms of what more light will do for the weight of their yield. To put the above definition in our context.... A point beyond which the application of more light intensity returns less than a proportional increase in yield. For example, when a space's light intensity is increased 20% and returns 20% more yield weight, the point of diminishing return had not yet been reached. But had the return been just 15%, the point would have been reached and returns diminished. This shouldn't be confused with a point of negative return, total yield weight didn't actually decrease (it did rise 15% after all), it's just that the weight increase wasn't proportional to the light increase.

Light intensity can be increased by adding light to an existing space, or by removing space from an existing light. Whether or not returns will diminish depends on what the intensity was before the change. How much returns diminish depends on how close the canopy was to being light-saturated. But when speaking of canopy in terms of light saturation, we have to look seriously at the entire three dimensional canopy space and not just the top of the canopy. This becomes easier to conceptualize if we look at the plant's parts and the thousands of different addresses at which they live and grow within the canopy. Under artificial light, some parts can be light-saturated while at the same time others won't produce acceptable growth without having more light to compensate.

We also have to make a clear distinction between the most light intensity a cannabis plant can tolerate, and the most light intensity it can use. Cannabis is a hardy full sun plant that can tolerate a lot more than it can use, we know it can tolerate up to 10,000 fc at the top of its canopy in the sweet spot, but we also know there will be less light reaching beneath the top.

Sun plants have a high optimum light intensity, meaning that compared to other green plants with lower light requirements sun plants can use higher light intensities before the point is reached where growth energy will no longer increase with more light. They also have a low light intensity point at which growth energy produced by light is just enough to sustain the growth they already have.

  • Light Saturation Point - A maximum light level where a further increase in light intensity does not result in an increase in photosynthesis.
  • Light Compensation Point - A minimum light level where the amount of food produced by photosynthesis equals the amount used by respiration.
Because photosynthesis manufactures food while respiration uses food to provide energy for growth, the light saturation point speaks to the most food a plant can manufacture in order to produce new growth, while the light compensation point speaks to the least food a plant must manufacture in order to sustain old growth. All points in between result in various rates of new growth, from very fast - when light levels are nearer the saturation point, to very slow - when they're nearer the compensation point. These points are species dependent however. Even among sun plants, different types will have different saturation and compensation points.

This brings us back to the point of diminishing return. Knowing that plants have a limit on how much light intensity they can make use of, it stands to reason that a strongly lit garden has less to gain from adding more light than a weakly lit one. The light saturation point for most high energy sun plants is around 4000-5000 fc. Research on the ever so popular cannabis stand-in, the tomato plant, puts its light saturation point at 6510 fc (Tatsumi & Hori, 1969).

I could not find any evidence that cannabis has been the subject of this sort of costly research. In fact, many well known cannabis authors draw analogies from research performed on other plants because cannabis-specific studies are unavailable. Given that many nations classify cannabis as a noxious, poisonous or a culturally insignificant weed, the odds that production related studies on drug cannabis will be funded are low. Nevertheless, and being cautious of possible analogous connections, some cannabis authors have published lighting guidelines (not saturation/compensation points per se) stating that flowering cannabis does well at 3000-5000 fc. However, one does allude to a saturation point when it says cannabis "can use up to 3000 fc efficiently". But given the known saturation points for tomato and most sun plants, and until such information becomes available for flowering cannabis, it seems reasonable to put its saturation point somewhere between 3000-6500 fc, with 5000 fc being a likely candidate.

Maximizing versus Optimizing
When we see references in gardening literature to optimum light intensity they're usually based on light saturation points (when that data is available), with the implied restriction being diminished returns on total yield. Depending on the source, many of these references give a single fc value, and many assume the user will be applying the value to plants grown under natural sunlight where light intensity at the bottom of the plant is virtually the same as that at the top. Under artificial lighting that is not the case. While optimum intensity may be available at the canopy top under artificial lighting, the inverse square law insures that anything below that point will see a dramatic reduction in light intensity as distance from the lamp progressively increases.

Tolerance versus Saturation
In order to saturate as much of the canopy interior as possible and not just the top, indoor growers often maximize light at the top of their canopy by supplying as much light as the plant can tolerate (9000-10000 fc) to insure that areas below the top are optimized (saturated at 5000 fc for example). Plant parts at the top of the canopy will only use up to 5000 fc even though they're receiving more, but some areas under the top are now receiving optimum saturation where they weren't before the canopy top was maximized. This struggle to keep as much of the canopy space optimized to the saturation point is why many growers try to keep their canopy depths to a minimum. And, as mentioned previously, the exact depth will depend on the intensity/wattage of the lamp being used and the growth density dictated by one's growing style.

Diminishing returns, regardless of whether it applies to total yield or yield per square foot, can be offset to some extent by lamp
placement and by closely cropping the sides, and even the bottom, of a grow space with reflective materials to improve growth density. The art of growing, as opposed to the mechanics, is to produce acceptable results in both density and total yield. When left with limited lighting resources a grower will play these two points of contention against one another by opting for the better yield per square foot values that come from a smaller but more intensely lit space, or opting for the higher total yields that come from a larger but less intensely lit space. These balancing acts can cause an unwary beginner to spend several crops coming to terms with the yield he needs and the esthetics he wants.
 

Uberknot

Well-Known Member
The Calvin Cycle
In plants, carbon dioxide (CO2) enters the leaves through stomata, where it diffuses over short distances through intercellular spaces until it reaches the mesophyll cells. Once in the mesophyll cells, CO2 diffuses into the stroma of the chloroplast, the site of light-independent reactions of photosynthesis. These reactions actually have several names associated with them. Other names for light-independent reactions include the Calvin cycle, the Calvin-Benson cycle, and dark reactions. The most outdated name is dark reactions, which can be misleading because it implies incorrectly that the reaction only occurs at night or is independent of light, which is why most scientists and instructors no longer use it.



Source: Boundless. “The Calvin Cycle.” Boundless Biology. Boundless, 26 May. 2016. Retrieved 02 Sep. 2016 from https://www.boundless.com/biology/textbooks/boundless-biology-textbook/photosynthesis-8/the-light-independent-reactions-of-photosynthesis-82/the-calvin-cycle-377-11603/
 

Uberknot

Well-Known Member
Slide 9 Recall that the enzyme Rubisco has both carboxylase and oxygenase activity. This means that carbon dioxide and oxygen compete for the binding site of the Rubisco enzyme. When carbon dioxide concentrations are high, carboxylase activity of the enzyme is favored and the Calvin cycle proceeds as previously discussed. However, when the concentration of carbon dioxide inside the leaf begins to fall, oxygenase activity of the enzyme is favored. As you can see in this figure, when the oxygenase activity of Rubisco is favored only one molecule of 3-phosphoglycerate is produced. If this process of photorespiration continues it causes a reduction in the production of sugars and other organic molecules necessary for plant growth resulting in slower growth of the plant. This may occur for example, on a hot day or during dry conditions when stomata close in order to conserve water subsequently causing increased levels of oxygen (produced during photosynthesis) in the leaf tissue. Photorespiration is avoided in two other metabolic pathways that have evolved: the C4 and crassulacean acid metabolism (CAM) pathways.

https://webpages.uidaho.edu/hartzell/biol115/t4_energy/pdf/T4L2M3_photosynthesis_carbon_fixation_reactions_transcript.pdf
 
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Uberknot

Well-Known Member
OH yeah I am getting somewhere now....:D of course I am speed reading through this stuff for specific points...So far I can see that if you do not have optimal conditions you can in fact slow your growth. like not having enough CO2 when it's hotter. AT least that's my take. Or any conditions where the stomata close like night time.

ALL that said my tent is at 73-75F and the plants are growing. The more I learn the better they are doing.

Definitely there is a learning curve here and you can totally fuck it up right of the bat....*cough....I almost did.
Now I just have to watch carefully and learn from these plants so that I can do better next time.

I will say this I have met some pretty smart guys here when it comes to growing Cannabis experience is key.

( 3 1/2 weeks )
PICT0041.JPG
 
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Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Here is one thread here https://www.rollitup.org/t/cannabis-max-light-saturation-point-and-yield.841892/



more info i guess...? forums stuff...

"Right now i have my 600w light 10 inches from the tops of my cola's, thats like 275% over the suns par, am i hurting my plants? They don't show any signs of light bleaching."



10 " ? You will see some bleaching! Back it off some....No use hurting them - unless your not concerned about damage due to testing limits......Your call.

I do see you are finding important stuff and learning pretty quickly! You got the bug!
Run with it!
 

Uberknot

Well-Known Member
10 " ? You will see some bleaching! Back it off some....No use hurting them - unless your not concerned about damage due to testing limits......Your call.

I do see you are finding important stuff and learning pretty quickly! You got the bug!
Run with it!

No... that was some forums bs I posted there to show.....what forums bs is.notice the "quote".:P

I have 4x3590's at 24+ inches. 875 mA to 1.3 mA varying through out the day.

I basically turn it up and down giving simulated cloud cover... shade...full sun..etc..

Also doing some rain storms and harder wind at times.:D I have decided to beat on them some.

Some days it's low wind and full light (1.3 mA ) like today after rainstorm thursday...

They do get low light 875 mA about 6-8 hours a day and have recovered nicely from my lack of understanding early on...even up to this day! lol! Like I said the more I learn the better they are doing now I just have to listen to the plants.

The male does look like he needs more bloom feed and feed overall atm....the female has not stretched yet so I am waiting to start switching over to bloom feed. She has started making the first pistils so bloom feed is coming soon. I will probably gradually make that happen over this next week or two.

The biggest problem I have had so far is understanding Coco in the medium/cal/mag, and realizing that they need water more than I was giving them. I think I babied them too much.
 
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Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
No... that was some forums bs I posted there to show.....what forums bs is.notice the "quote".:P

I have 4x3590's at 24+ inches. 875 mA to 1.3 mA varying through out the day.

I basically turn it up and down giving simulated cloud cover... shade...full sun..etc..

Also doing some rain storms and harder wind at times.:D I have decided to beat on them some.

Some days it's low wind and full light (1.3 mA ) like today after rainstorm thursday...

They do get low light 875 mA about 6-8 hours a day and have recovered nicely from my lack of understanding early on...even up to this day! lol! Like I said the more I learn the better they are doing now I just have to listen to the plants.

The male does look like he needs more bloom feed and feed overall atm....the female has not stretched yet so I am waiting to start switching over to bloom feed. She has started making the first pistils so bloom feed is coming soon. I will probably gradually make that happen over this next week or two.

The biggest problem I have had so far is understanding Coco in the medium/cal/mag, and realizing that they need water more than I was giving them. I think I babied them too much.
"I see know" said the blind man!

I never liked coco.....My choice.

Babied? everyone starts out that way!
 

SPLFreak808

Well-Known Member
SO what are the maximum photons allowed daily? I saw the - it might make THC to protect itself part. Then again most ruderalis strains had very little to no THC. I guess we could say they never saw enough light intensity? And what about Hemp?

You would be amazed at the crap I have read today.....most pot forums people just spread rumors.

Mostly what I have seen regarding cannabis is maybe if's and or but's and a few possibles thrown in. It's like looking up the last rumor or fad and a ton of pot forums gossip. Give me university studies....science....anything..otherwise this all sounds like any other forum Iooked at today. Specific to CANNABIS. I did find out Cannabis uses NO co2 during lights out....while some pot forums think they do.


Anyhow I have 3 books coming this week I'll read em one is Botany for cannabis. I have not seen anything that would suggest it's better to turn off the lights in veg or with an Autoflower. At least not yet.

IN fact I would say you could just dim the lights and that is just my Opinion.

But I'll go on another 3 hours wild goose chase right now ;)




When I turn the fans on humidity goes up....SO I just use the intake circulation at times. I adjust lights like the sun goes up and down....when I turn them down it shoots up some.

I did find that if I point a fan straight down and let the air push out the sides to the plants that will work ok.

The only thing that will lower the humidity enough is going to be a dehumidifier in the tent this time of year for me. Basically they are useless or less effective when the temps drop and it's humid like in a house.
Interesting that an oscillating fan jumps your humidity idk shouldn't happen unless your plants living on half closed stomatas (excessive rh/temps or hot root zone). Hard to say whats going on but if it works then it works.

How do you dry and cure? In an environment like mines i need to run an a/c for a few weeks during dry and first week cure.
 

Uberknot

Well-Known Member
Interesting that an oscillating fan jumps your humidity idk shouldn't happen unless your plants living on half closed stomatas (excessive rh/temps or hot root zone). Hard to say whats going on but if it works then it works.

How do you dry and cure? In an environment like mines i need to run an a/c for a few weeks during dry and first week cure.

Getting a humidifier to put in the tent soon...

It all depends on if I just watered, rained outside, etc...

Like the last couple days humidity stayed 50-60% and that's as low as it gets this time of year. During the summer it did get down to the 35-50% range. I think when the fans just circulate air around the middle it keep the moisture lower and the dry air from the lights stays higher and gets exhausted. When I point a fan down between the plants it seems to suck dryer air from the lights down through the bottom area.....it's such a small area 2x2x5.5 Just having rain outside can jack the humidity or even fog. Anyhow I will have to get a Humidifier to put in the tent....In the winter or when we start using gas heat that should dry the air some and help. I have an AC in the room and when I run it it helps but temps are in the low 70's now during the day and frequent rain and can't use it. I wish I lived somewhere dry....cheaper to add humidity than to remove it.
 
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