Thanks To 'Fight For $15' Minimum Wage, McDonald's Unveils Job-Replacing Self-Service Kiosks

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
a Livable min wage is also better socially.

Less crime, less domestic vilonce and therefore a smaller prison population.
Prisons wouldnt like this of cause as they use the slave labor to create massive profits. You cant get more min wage than free can ya?
Sad that slave labor is still alive in America isnt it?
 
Last edited:

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
You are welcome. How does what I said prove your point?
Wowsers. Were you home schooled by @Flaming Pie ? You don't know?

Red line below shows price index normalized to 1929. Prices decline sharply between 1929 and 1933

upload_2016-12-8_12-32-27.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression#/media/File:Great_Depression_monetary_policy.png

US unemployment rocketed to more than 20% during same interval. Note that this was a time of single income families. As we all know, official unemployment rate under-reports unemployment. Safe to say that more than a quarter of all workers were out of a job. Also, many workers that had jobs kept them by accepting less pay. States and counties were practically bankrupt. Many state and county workers had a job but practically no income.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Unemployment_1910-1960.gif

To repeat what you said, "if you had a job (with a good income), you were fine". I added a few words to make it correct. For the most part across the country people were not "fine". The economic crash created deflation. Once the cycle of deflation set in, the economy kept spiraling down. It took massive government spending during the war era to break the hold that deflation had on the economy.

source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
 

ThaiBaby1

Well-Known Member
Wowsers. Were you home schooled by @Flaming Pie ? You don't know?

Red line below shows price index normalized to 1929. Prices decline sharply between 1929 and 1933

View attachment 3848784

US unemployment rocketed to more than 20% during same interval. Note that this was a time of single income families. As we all know, official unemployment rate under reports unemployment. Safe to say that more than a quarter of all workers were out of a job. Also, many workers that had jobs were kept them by accepting less pay. States and counties were practically bankrupt. Many state and county workers had a job but practically no income.



To repeat what you said, "if you had a job (with a good income), you were fine". I added a few words to make it correct. But for the most part across the country people were not "fine". The economic crash created deflation. Once the cycle of deflation set in, the economy kept spiraling down. It took massive government spending during the war era to break the hold that deflation had on the economy.
Please no ad hominems, I said you were fine if you had a job, of course if you didn't you were screwed. People had less pay, but prices were lower also
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Are we talking about the general benefit of an advanced education or what to do with people who would not benefit from it?
More along the lines of general education levels increasing people's ability to question sheep mentality and compete in a Global job market. While some may not directly benefit (financially) with more education, higher education is always a benefit and becoming more and more important. Competing for work is now Global, not within your borders as your simpleton President-Elect is insinuating.
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Samsung is building a billion dollar plant in Texas that will employ approximately 100 people. I work for one of the top 10 companies in the world. I have been in manufacturing for over 45 years. Always electronic maintenance. Machine tools, x-ray, you name it. When I started out most machines were manual machines. Now with probing etc the operator loads the part and cycle starts the operation. No guaging and only insert changes. 1 man can run a dozen machines with very little Skil level. My job on the other hand has went from vacuum tubes to NC to CNC and has been progressively more difficult over the years. We are making parts in China for our military as we speak. Also Turkey. Get ready. It won't get better in manufacturing in this country. Automation
This is a real world example of what I was referring to in my first post, automation in manufacturing (and other industries like retail/food/services) is just ramping up. We're on the verge of another tech revolution, with automation that will replace many traditional jobs. That said, all of those machines run on software, that software gets constantly updated/fixed. The infrastructure/technology these machines run on doesn't magically appear, it has to be designed and implemented, then maintained regularly. But the people doing this new work certainly need more education than a line worker or someone flipping burgers at Mickey D's. Then there's AI, another area with much bigger implications than losing a $15/hr. job.
 

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
This is a real world example of what I was referring to in my first post, automation in manufacturing (and other industries like retail/food/services) is just ramping up. We're on the verge of another tech revolution, with automation that will replace many traditional jobs. That said, all of those machines run on software, that software gets constantly updated/fixed. The infrastructure/technology these machines run on doesn't magically appear, it has to be designed and implemented, then maintained regularly. But the people doing this new work certainly need more education than a line worker or someone flipping burgers at Mickey D's. Then there's AI, another area with much bigger implications than losing a $15/hr. job.
Well said but ill add people can still benefit and make an income from the changing job market without an education or a trade. Tourism, small business and the service industries for eg.

Job markets change as technology changers. Farms used to be smaller with more workers. Now farms are larger with fewer workers. Farmer still needs to purchase things and use services, probably more than ever before.
 

Justin-case

Well-Known Member
This is a real world example of what I was referring to in my first post, automation in manufacturing (and other industries like retail/food/services) is just ramping up. We're on the verge of another tech revolution, with automation that will replace many traditional jobs. That said, all of those machines run on software, that software gets constantly updated/fixed. The infrastructure/technology these machines run on doesn't magically appear, it has to be designed and implemented, then maintained regularly. But the people doing this new work certainly need more education than a line worker or someone flipping burgers at Mickey D's. Then there's AI, another area with much bigger implications than losing a $15/hr. job.

True, there will be demand for these programming and mantainence jobs, but in long run there will be fewer jobs with a lot more people.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
More along the lines of general education levels increasing people's ability to question sheep mentality and compete in a Global job market. While some may not directly benefit (financially) with more education, higher education is always a benefit and becoming more and more important. Competing for work is now Global, not within your borders as your simpleton President-Elect is insinuating.
As pointed out in other posts, automation is doing a lot of the work that was previously done by a lower educated working class. This process is inexorable in that automation has real benefits to industrialists and consumers in the form of higher quality, predictable operations and lower cost of management. Sometimes automation ends up costing more but usually there is a cost benefit too. What I'm wondering is what do people do when the jobs that they used to do go away?

Right now the answer is leave the work force if one is able to retire or accept jobs in the service sector, which is growing and labor intensive but doesn't really add much value or require a lot of skill and so doesn't pay well. What about the future work force currently in K-12?

I've spent time with my kids on their homework and the curriculum is pretty good. The problem is that too many kids aren't working at learning the curriculum. By the time they graduate, they aren't ready for the kind of education you talk about. What I don't understand is why we think that a kid who is reluctant to learn the curriculum in high school will suddenly become a model student in college? And so, rather than pour massive resources into growing the college system to accommodate the entire population of young adults age 18-22, I'd put more resources into K-12 as well as addressing the divide between teachers and parents to try to find ways to motivate the youngsters. Sure, fund college to reduce or eliminate the debt load on those that earn their right to go to college but my guess is that only about 30% of the 18 year old population is really going to benefit from this investment in terms of greater life skills whether or not it pays off the investment monetarily.

Agree that philosophically, when a student applies him or herself to studies that they like, they benefit regardless of future earnings. But they do need to go into society and make a living. How many knowledge workers can this economy use? How many people are fit to fill those shoes. Again, what happens to people who aren't super sharp and wouldn't make a good programmer or product designer or doctor? Maybe I'm wrong and a 4 or maybe 6 year college education for all means that we will have a new economy work force filled with entrepreneurs and everybody will be rich. Is this what you think should be our goal?

Countries like Germany and Japan have a different education system that early on sorts kids according to their aptitude in school. They have apprenticeship programs that prepare kids for work after high school and they also have an excellent record of producing knowledge workers. There are other models to look at than just extending K-12 to K-16.
 
Last edited:

Justin-case

Well-Known Member
I'm interested in talking about this with you, not arguing as normally happens in this forum. As pointed out in other posts, automation is doing a lot of the work that was previously done by a lower educated working class. This process is inexorable in that automation has real benefits to industrialists and consumers in the form of higher quality, predictable operations and lower cost of management. Sometimes automation ends up costing more but usually there is a cost benefit too. What I'm wondering is what do people do when the jobs that they used to do go away?

Right now the answer is leave the work force if one is able to retire or accept jobs in the service sector, which is growing and labor intensive but doesn't really add much value or require a lot of skill and so doesn't pay well. What about the future work force currently in K-12?

I've spent time with my kids on their homework and the curriculum is pretty good. The problem is that too many kids aren't working at learning the curriculum. By the time they graduate, they aren't ready for the kind of education you talk about. What I don't understand is why we think that a kid who is reluctant to learn the curriculum in high school will suddenly become a model student in college? And so, rather than pour massive resources into growing the college system to accommodate the entire population of young adults age 18-22, I'd put more resources into K-12 as well as addressing the divide between teachers and parents to try to find ways to motivate the youngsters. Sure, fund college to reduce or eliminate the debt load on those that earn their right to go to college but my guess is that only about 30% of the 18 year old population is really going to benefit from this investment in terms of greater life skills whether or not it pays off the investment monetarily.

Agree that philosophically, when a student applies him or herself to studies that they like, they benefit regardless of future earnings. But they do need to go into society and make a living. How many knowledge workers can this economy use? How many people are fit to fill those shoes. Again, what happens to people who aren't super sharp and wouldn't make a good programmer or product designer or doctor? Maybe I'm wrong and a 4 or maybe 6 year college education for all means that we will have a new economy work force filled with entrepreneurs and everybody will be rich. Is this what you think should be our goal?

Countries like Germany and Japan have a different education system that early on sorts kids according to their aptitude in school. They have apprenticeship programs that prepare kids for work after high school and they also have an excellent record of producing knowledge workers. There are other models to look at than just the extending K-12 to K-16.

One trend I do see emerging from the tech economy is higher wages and a demand for local hand crafted goods, organic foods, art and music. So maybe in a sense there will be these piggy back jobs that weren't as prelevant before, I dunno.
 

dandyrandy

Well-Known Member
This is a real world example of what I was referring to in my first post, automation in manufacturing (and other industries like retail/food/services) is just ramping up. We're on the verge of another tech revolution, with automation that will replace many traditional jobs. That said, all of those machines run on software, that software gets constantly updated/fixed. The infrastructure/technology these machines run on doesn't magically appear, it has to be designed and implemented, then maintained regularly. But the people doing this new work certainly need more education than a line worker or someone flipping burgers at Mickey D's. Then there's AI, another area with much bigger implications than losing a $15/hr. job.
True but GE makes most of the engine parts overseas. Much cheaper wage. The only parts we make are worth over $50k. And now we are in additive manufacturing. No machining. It's play doh molded, baked and becomes metal. Then laser sintering additive as well as eb weld additive we do. Most going overseas. Only parts hard to ship are made here.
 

Rrog

Well-Known Member
Also, I gotta vote Justin as having the most childish signature on the forum this week. Flaming Pie has the dumbest sig, but Justin's is the most childish.

Pleas continue with this regularly scheduled program.
 

Justin-case

Well-Known Member
Also, I gotta vote Justin as having the most childish signature on the forum this week. Flaming Pie has the dumbest sig, but Justin's is the most childish.

Pleas continue with this regularly scheduled program.

Sorry, I know you two are buddies. Hell I don't even like the Sig that much, but I see as a form a public shaming for his behavior. It'll be gone soon enough, carry on.


Edit: The week is not over yet:-)
 
Last edited:

dandyrandy

Well-Known Member
Right, and at some point the machines will repair the machines.
I have 34 days to retirement. I'll piddle in my shop with my ham rig and maybe open it back up. I used to do warranty work for Sony and others while I worked in a factory as well. The problem is dealing with the public. Especially collectors. Their 50 year old Collins rig is their crack. They will wait while you repair it. If they have to leave something they would cry. I hate working on other people's problems. Today a shipper part machine was down. $150k part needed 3 more days of machining. Has to ship Friday. Power track that holds the sealtite had open 3 phase motor wires. Several days work so we jury rigged it. That's the part of a machine repairing a machine is a bit out there yet. But some day. Dexterity is an issue. And some out of the box thinking. We have laser gages that measure the tools before and after a cut to check tool wear and adjust offsets. I've seen noise from intermittent sources trip the laser gage incorrectly scrap a $100k part. To find it is tough. I've spent a month on a ge 550 control to find a bad electrolytic cap causing intermittent problems. That's why my son and son in law went in to maintenance. The problem now is most end up in field service and end up in Singapore or Turkey for a month. Fanuc is always hiring.
 
Top