Rockwool seedling help please, droopy

[Lion-O]

Had 1st year growing last year. Did 3 perpetual soil grows. This year trying bubbleponics. Have rockwool and having issues!

Small cubes soaked in PH 5.9 RO water. Germinated seeds in papertowel, then placed in the rockwool which was shaken out for excess water. Placed in dome. One popped up but decapitated itself. The second is the one in the photos. I moved it to the netpot (still in rockwool) once the leaves got a little bigger. It's been droopy since it came out. I read this is either excess or not enough water. Touched rockwool, seemed to be on dry side, so used some of the water in the bucket to wet the rockwool. Another day I turned on the drip ring (which is powered by the same air pump running the airstone, so it's always dripping if it's plugged in). The water in the bucket is 66 - 68 deg. F. Currently using an LED, but originally used CFL when in the dome. The LED is 240watts cobb, about 25 inches from the seedling. It's still droopy...

I only ran the drip ring a few minutes once a day. Today I can't tell if it's dry or wet, but touching the leaves didn't feel crispy or anything, so I didn't water the rockwool directly, but let it run a few minutes for the surrounding hydroton. Then put a baggy over the top of the seedling, loosely, so it gets air as well.

I read that rockwool can suck at starting seedlings, but that's all I have right now. I can order the rapid rooters from Amazon, but if I can just tweak the rockwool setup that'd be great. I only have 3 seeds left so I don't want to mess up any more! Only trying to do one seedling at a time, then will clone a second off this one and just run two in bubble buckets.

What can I do to tweak the current seedling setup?

 

[Know One]

Once you see any sign of a leaf, it means you have roots. Roots need some (just a little to start) nutrient stimulation to find their feet. I would try using 200ppm of whatever nutrient you are using for veg. Start with 200ppm nutrients at .5 conversion and work up to 500 during first week or week and 1/2.
Are you using RO water? I have started my seeds in 1" RW cubes for 15 years with excellent success rate. If you are using tap water or well water, what are your starting ppm levels?

 

[Lion-O]

Yes, post stated ro water. It was my understanding you don't feed until more leaves, as cotolyns are still there.

 

[CouchGouch]

Could be a little overwatered or maybe a little light stressed, if it's 240 true watts. Kinda looks like a water droop but at that small it's hard to tell.

I'd raise the light to about 30-36 inches. Pick up a few balls off the cube and test if the top has some moisture. If theres a little sweat on the top, on the back of your finger, just lay off the water. At that size they don't need any feed imo. If you have an ec/ppm meter, like know one said keep it low.

Personally I wait till they have their 3rd/4th set of leaves before they seem hungry, then keep them on a very low feed till they seem a little hungry. Just make sure it's PH'd. I usually go for 5.8 all the way through veg, some say, 5.6+ is better early veg in hydro.

Keep the PH right and don't let them dry out and you don't have much to worry about.

Where are the roots atm?

 

[Lion-O]

Roots are barely through the bottom. I fed less than 1/4, as feeding was what "Know One" stated, I think that pretty much did it in. The top was quite wet as well. I believe it drowned.

So, I just got my rapid rooters yesterday. Just ph'd water to 5.8 and put another seed directly in the rapid rooter in a dome on a heat mat. I pulled the troubled seedling out of the net pot and put the rockwool cube directly under a cfl, but with a small breeze. I figure if it dies it dies. I believe the rockwool made it too water logged. We'll see how this rapid rooter goes.

Oh, get this, I had 3 seeds left. I was all set to drop it in the rooter, and it fell from my hand to the carpet. Can't for the life of me find the damn thing. So after the newly planted seed I only have ONE of this strain left. I have some freebies from that order, but no idea what they are. I was hoping to be well into veg by now as I was planning on being finished with the grow just as the hot weather hit. Story of my life, nothing works out as planned --

 

[HydoDan]

Until you figure it out rockwool can hold too much water for good germination.. weigh a dry one.. weigh a wet one..
Then weigh one that is just right... I think that's a nursery rhyme!! You get the picture.. takes the guess work out of it..
I like upside down rapid rooters for seeds...

 

[Know One]

Sorry to hear you had issues, however, when you specifically attach my RIU name to the reason you think it was "done in", I feel I need to chime in.
If your RW cube is over-saturated, It won't make any difference if you're using RO water at 0 or at 200ppm. RW cubes should have approx. 25-30% water/nutrient moisture ratio to ensure oversaturation doesn't occur.
Here you see a couple of pics of babies from seeds I just started, I applied the exact method to these babies that I described above. This method for me has shown over 95% germination rates over and over for over 15 years.
Current:
March29 0ppm RO water 5.8pH

March 31 Start 200ppm (keeping that 25%-30% moisture ratio is important at this stage)

( 6 days later) getting 250ppm at 5.8pH.
In 4 or 5 days I will be going to 400ppm where it will stay for about 5 or 6 days. Then they get 500ppm for the remainder of veg.

 

[Lion-O]

Sorry to hear you had issues, however, when you specifically attach my RIU name to the reason you think it was "done in", I feel I need to chime in.
If your RW cube is over-saturated, It won't make any difference if you're using RO water at 0 or at 200ppm. RW cubes should have approx. 25-30% water/nutrient moisture ratio to ensure oversaturation doesn't occur.
Here you see a couple of pics of babies from seeds I just started, I applied the exact method to these babies that I described above. This method for me has shown over 95% germination rates over and over for over 15 years.
Current:
March29 0ppm RO water 5.8pH

March 31 Start 200ppm (keeping that 25%-30% moisture ratio is important at this stage)

( 6 days later) getting 250ppm at 5.8pH.
In 4 or 5 days I will be going to 400ppm where it will stay for about 5 or 6 days. Then they get 500ppm for the remainder of veg.

Your cubes look different, mine have labels around them. Perhaps that helped hold too much moisture. I believe I also put the cube in netpot too early as it sucked up moisture from bubbling, and never dried out from that. I see yours are also not in a system yet, even though they have a few leaves. I think I just rushed it.

 

[CouchGouch]

Soak your cubes in your ph'd water, shake the excess water out of them.

Stick your seed almost 1cm into your grodan centre hole, take a corner off of the cube and stick it in to plug that hole.

If you have a heat mat great, get it on top of that.

Leave it. Check on it every 1-2 days, but just leave it alone.

A seed doesn't need any Nutes mate, if you can test ph great but most tap water will be fine to pop a seed.

Don't over love it

 

[CouchGouch]

 

[Know One]

Soak your cubes in your ph'd water, shake the excess water out of them.

Stick your seed almost 1cm into your grodan centre hole, take a corner off of the cube and stick it in to plug that hole.

If you have a heat mat great, get it on top of that.

Leave it. Check on it every 1-2 days, but just leave it alone.

A seed doesn't need any Nutes mate, if you can test ph great but most tap water will be fine to pop a seed.

Don't over love it

Time to get into specifics. When a seed is dropped into the hole in the cube, you are mimicking it being dropped into soil where it is dark. These first starters simply need to be in a dark area and have the right amount of moister to start. IMO you make it more difficult if you plug the hole where the first set of leaves pop. However, it does need to be dark.
Within 3-4 days, if you have a viable seed, you will have a first tiny tap root, within a day of that, the first bottom set of leaves start to form. This is when your baby needs to be introduced to a very low 100-200ppm nutrients reg. Withing 2 weeks I slowly go up to 500ppm where they stay until flower. This ppm # may be different depending on the nutrients you use.
I will be keeping a journal if you want to follow this current grow. The babies in the pics are Pure Ghost from Greepnoint seeds and Garlix

 

[Lion-O]

Time to get into specifics. When a seed is dropped into the hole in the cube, you are mimicking it being dropped into soil where it is dark. These first starters simply need to be in a dark area and have the right amount of moister to start. IMO you make it more difficult if you plug the hole where the first set of leaves pop. However, it does need to be dark.
Within 3-4 days, if you have a viable seed, you will have a first tiny tap root, within a day of that, the first bottom set of leaves start to form. This is when your baby needs to be introduced to a very low 100-200ppm nutrients reg. Withing 2 weeks I slowly go up to 500ppm where they stay until flower. This ppm # may be different depending on the nutrients you use.
I will be keeping a journal if you want to follow this current grow. The babies in the pics are Pure Ghost from Greepnoint seeds and Garlix

Thanks again Know One. I have another seedling in rapid rooter this time. However, it is looking like the first picture, with the droopy leaves, so no need to post another photo! I must be doing close to the same thing incorrectly again. However, this time I'm using less nutes.

A few days ago I did .5 ml cal mag plus, 5.8 ph. This was in a tray, not the bucket yet. 12 hrs later I watered with PH'd RO water, as I had a tiny fan blowing just over the seedling and the rapid rooter was getting dry. 12 hrs later used the same nuted cal mag water. 12 hrs later once again, but realized that it'd be best to have it in the bucket if it's getting this dry this fast. So it's been in the bucket with the drip ring going constantly since 2 AM this morning. This RO water is at 100 ppm nutes (dynagro) which was .5 ml per gallon, 4 gallons total in the bucket. PH 5.8. Made sure the small fans are jiggling the seedling slightly, the 240 watt cob is a little higher, roughly 2.5 ft above. Res is 68 degrees f. The hydroton is wet all the way around. I was thinking that since it's a rapid rooter it'd be good to keep the ring dripping around it. Water level is about 1/2 inch below net pot. If this is all correct, I'd hoped the leaves would stop drooping by now, having been 7 hours later.

Should I turn the drip ring off? What am I f-ing up this time?

 

[HydoDan]

Droopy leaves on a seedling is a sign of over watering.. They're small they don't need much...
I don't feed until they're about a week old... Once again they don't need much..

 

[Know One]

IMHO you are simply overthinking things.
Why would you be adding Cal-Mag at this stage? Cal-Mag is a nutrient supplement that is meant to be used when you see Calcium and Magnesium deficiencies down the road. Many strains don't even need Cal-Mag. Dynagrow already contains a good ratio of Calcium and Magnesium within it's profile. By adding supplement now, you are starting out with a nutrient imbalance.
Right now your root system needs approx 25%- water/nutrients--to a 75% oxygen ratio to stay alive. If using 100ppm, you're fine with just Dynagrow, although you need some moisture outside (like a humidity dome if still in a tray for future ref), or, I use a spray bottle with a fine mist and lightly spray a fine mist over the babies a few times a day. Definitely turn off any fan blowing on seedlings at this point. This will dry them out.
Do you have an air filter in that bucket?

 

[Lion-O]

IMHO you are simply overthinking things.
Why would you be adding Cal-Mag at this stage? Cal-Mag is a nutrient supplement that is meant to be used when you see Calcium and Magnesium deficiencies down the road. Many strains don't even need Cal-Mag. Dynagrow already contains a good ratio of Calcium and Magnesium within it's profile. By adding supplement now, you are starting out with a nutrient imbalance.
Right now your root system needs approx 25%- water/nutrients--to a 75% oxygen ratio to stay alive. If using 100ppm, you're fine with just Dynagrow, although you need some moisture outside (like a humidity dome if still in a tray for future ref), or, I use a spray bottle with a fine mist and lightly spray a fine mist over the babies a few times a day. Definitely turn off any fan blowing on seedlings at this point. This will dry them out.
Do you have an air filter in that bucket?

Air filter? Do you mean an air stone? I have an air stone, yes.

So the drip ring is off, been off since last post. Fans in tent are off. Seedling still in bubble bucket. Moved top hydroton stones and the rapid rooter is moist on top, all the way through it. Leaves still curled down.

 

[Lion-O]

Air filter? Do you mean an air stone? I have an air stone, yes.

So the drip ring is off, been off since last post. Fans in tent are off. Seedling still in bubble bucket. Moved top hydroton stones and the rapid rooter is moist on top, all the way through it. Leaves still curled down.

Just did what you stated and sprayed / misted the seedling with a fine mist sprayer. Used same water from bucket.

 

[Lion-O]

IMHO you are simply overthinking things.
Why would you be adding Cal-Mag at this stage? Cal-Mag is a nutrient supplement that is meant to be used when you see Calcium and Magnesium deficiencies down the road. Many strains don't even need Cal-Mag. Dynagrow already contains a good ratio of Calcium and Magnesium within it's profile. By adding supplement now, you are starting out with a nutrient imbalance.
Right now your root system needs approx 25%- water/nutrients--to a 75% oxygen ratio to stay alive. If using 100ppm, you're fine with just Dynagrow, although you need some moisture outside (like a humidity dome if still in a tray for future ref), or, I use a spray bottle with a fine mist and lightly spray a fine mist over the babies a few times a day. Definitely turn off any fan blowing on seedlings at this point. This will dry them out.
Do you have an air filter in that bucket?

I remember adding calmag to seedlings in soil last year, as I was using RO water then as well.

 

[Know One]

Yes, i am talking about an air pump and stone, apologies for any confusion.
I have always rooted seeds and clones starting with1"x1" RW cubes without too many issues.
I Really would like to see things get on track for you.
Please know I mean this with all due respect. if you place seeds in a starter and water lightly, don't be too impatient. Give it a little time before up-planting and adding nutrient supplements and additives. If using dynagro, at 100ppm, you're good once you have leaves showing.

 

[Lion-O]

Lowered water level about 3 inches below net, added hydroguard. One day later and leaves are bigger and perked up/not drooping! Also have an air line just blowing inside bucket, not in water. Would that be doing anything beneficial?

 

[ILM]

No