Wax in Rosin

[BobCajun]

Something that occurred to me while watching a rosin video is that rosin is never winterized, because it would defeat the purpose. Might as well have extracted with alcohol to start with. So does that mean that people might be messing up their lungs with wax by smoking rosin?

 

[BobCajun]

I found something a little concerning.

Confirmed cases of Pneumothorax from smoking/vaping BHO

Met with an acquaintance yesterday that just spent a month in the hospital. Had fluid in his "body cavity." He is a complete dab head. He had 2 ribs cracked so that they could insert a hose into his body to drain out the fluid.

He obviously told them he was a dab head, and thus now he does not dab at all.

The doctors told him they are starting to see many cases of Pneumothorax (collapsed lungs) due to dabbing. This is happening in kids in their early 20's.

He is in his mid 40's, and was almost solely dabbing. He only dabbed "professional" product from dispensaries.

I have chosen to never dab, ever. I always was worried about the long term effects, and it appears that they are not as long term as once thought.

This info came from doctors in Colorado, and Ohio. Glad to see him alive, and still kicking. Happier to see him not touching BHO anymore.

Dabbing has turned into a religion and I know this will not sit well with others, but it is important to get this info out there.

Purging does not make it safe.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=288001

And

I know quite a bit of you guys dab bho's qwiso, and other types of oils. I just have been wondering about the risks of hash oil. I have seen terrible oil that kids smoke that is glop. However one of my friends collapsed a lung and had to go to the ER from a dab. Its not only happened, a hash oil reviewer on youtube also had a lung collapse and I have heard its happened to other people too.

Currently non of my friends smoke hash made of solvents such as butane since residuals are left in the hash even after extraction. Hash oil is a new thing and not many people know the longterm effects.

What do you guys think?

source

Is it from the wax? Possibly. I watched a video on making extracts yesterday and the guy mentioned that you always need to winterize because the wax will stay in your lungs and you could get a collapsed lung. First time I heard that. Thought he might be mistaken, but apparently not. Might be best to stick with bud, though there would be wax on bud too. But maybe it's so diluted by the other smoke components that you can cough it out. Or maybe even smoking bud is dangerous. But I don't think anyone ever reported collapsed lungs from smoking bud.

Anyway, the popularity of extracts may start to decline when word about this gets around. I wonder if pure THC or THCA would also cause it. Probably not. Would just all be absorbed. Maybe now those types of extracts will become the popular ones, even though they have no flavor or anything. That's the only extracts I'll ever be smoking from now on. I'll look into this more. I know of people I see on YouTube who are hitting big-ass dabs regularly, like Farmer Joe. Every video he dabs up. Obviously it's a legitimate concern. Lots of google results when searching about it.

 

[BobCajun]

Yeah this ain't looking good.

so about 2 days ago i began feeling pains in my chest and neck, as it turns out, i had a spontaneous lung collapse (my right).

the doctor asked me if i was a smoker and i said i smoked weed daily, to which he said "half of the people that come in for spontaneous lung collapse smoke weed daily"
apparently the deep inhale associated with smoking weed is what caused my lung to "pop". also, since i'm skinny and tall, my stature is commonly associated with lungs collapsing.


my question is this. after my lungs have healed, would it be okay to pick up smoking again?or should i buy a vaporizer and edibles? both are not readily available for use, which is why i smoke.

but if necessary i will buy a vaporizer and i guess only use it at night, when i wont be disturbing anyone with the smell.

EDIT: I made some firecrackers. didn't get very high off about 1g, but it took the pain away completely, so to that MJ you have my thanks. actually... i am pretty high. and i ate them like 5 hours ago.
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Maybe that's it, inhaling too deep. People do tend to do that when they smoke dope. I don't myself, just kind of normal inhale. Not that concerned about getting every bit of THC. My lungs do feel pretty crappy though, must admit. I actually have been off it for several days now. Got pretty sick of it so decided to lay off a while.

Here's another one. Dude's lung's collapsed 5 times.

I know this post is old. I found it in a google search. Anyways, I used to smoke cannabis alot and my lung collapsed about 5 times until they finally did surgery to fix it. They said that collapsed lungs occur often in young thin males. They said it was a "spontaneous phnemothorax" and never really said anything about cannabis smoking being the cause of it. But I am pretty sure smoking didn't help. So overall I doubt your lungs will collapse unless you are already prone to it, but still smoking does not help. Try vaporizing or at least using a filter instead. And try not to smoke bongs because the big inhalations can't be healthy for your lungs. For filters check out happycheif dot com. Or you can stop smoking completely and good bud brownies. By the way I don't smoke anymore and I haven't had my lung collapse since. I don't think smoking was the direct cause of my lungs collapsing but I'm pretty sure it didn't help at all.

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[CriticalCheeze]

Yeah this ain't looking good.

Maybe that's it, inhaling too deep. People do tend to do that when they smoke dope. I don't myself, just kind of normal inhale. Not that concerned about getting every bit of THC. My lungs do feel pretty crappy though, must admit. I actually have been off it for several days now. Got pretty sick of it so decided to lay off a while.

I Recieve medical MJ for multiple reasons but one of them is chronic pain from a couple spontaneous collapses. Spent many visits with the pulminologist, Talked with him for a very long time over my visits and He is very knowledgeable. And he has told me many many times that smoking CANNABIS does not relate DIRECTLY to any lung collapses, Yet the irritation from coughing etc CAN. They are little "air sacs" called plueri, When coughing, sneezing etc they can "vibrate, move around" and if too severe they can basically "seperate" from the chest wall creating a pocket, Air escapes like a untied ballon. He confirmed to me that cannabis infact opens up the bronchi( Airways in and out ) And pneumothoraxis are 5 times more likely in tall skinny low weight people.

Ciggarrettes on the other hand? Ha.. Is there anything those won't kill?>

 

[CriticalCheeze]

But i see your point, It's a double edged sword.

Oh and none of the above is related to BHO. Never did ask about that

 

[BobCajun]

I Recieve medical MJ for multiple reasons but one of them is chronic pain from a couple spontaneous collapses. Spent many visits with the pulminologist, Talked with him for a very long time over my visits and He is very knowledgeable. And he has told me many many times that smoking CANNABIS does not relate DIRECTLY to any lung collapses, Yet the irritation from coughing etc CAN. They are little "air sacs" called plueri, When coughing, sneezing etc they can "vibrate, move around" and if too severe they can basically "seperate" from the chest wall creating a pocket, Air escapes like a untied ballon. He confirmed to me that cannabis infact opens up the bronchi( Airways in and out ) And pneumothoraxis are 5 times more likely in tall skinny low weight people.

Ciggarrettes on the other hand? Ha.. Is there anything those won't kill?>

Coincidentally I just found something which supports your theory about the coughing. It's a scientific article, not just stories on forums.

Though cannabis (marijuana) is an illegal drug in the UK, it is widely used in the 18–25-year age group. In those who smoke it there are increasing reports of detrimental effects on the respiratory tract.1 An association between spontaneous pneumothorax and pneumomediastinum with marijuana has previously been described.2,3 A suggested mechanism is coughing while breath-holding in inspiration, for example, after taking a draw on a 'joint'.3 Perhaps this was the explanation in the present case.

source

People do cough a lot when smoking extracts. And reference 3 in that quote, about the joint, led to an article abstract which said it was this "Valsalva maneuver" that the guy was doing which caused it. This is from the wikipedia page about that. Apparently you don't want to do the following when smoking dope, or tobacco either.

The Valsalva maneuver or Valsalva manoeuvre is performed by moderately forceful attempted exhalation against a closed airway, usually done by closing one's mouth, pinching one's nose shut while pressing out as if blowing up a balloon. Variations of the maneuver can be used either in medical examination as a test of cardiac function and autonomic nervous control of the heart, or to "clear" the ears and sinuses (that is, to equalize pressure between them) when ambient pressure changes, as in diving, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, or air travel.[1]

The technique is named after Antonio Maria Valsalva,[2] a seventeenth-century physician and anatomist from Bologna whose principal scientific interest was the human ear. He described the Eustachian tube and the maneuver to test its patency (openness). He also described the use of this maneuver to expel pus from the middle ear.

A modified version is done by expiring against a closed glottis. This will elicit the cardiovascular responses described below but will not force air into the Eustachian tubes.

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[CriticalCheeze]

I would like NASA opinion on vac chambers and vac ovens. See what the real science says about that. Because lets face it, Who is better at understanding vacuum and atmospheric pressure? haha

Maybe the 'wax' in rosin/dabs is actually just 'tar' residue as if just smoking the flower itself?

 

[BobCajun]

I would like NASA opinion on vac chambers and vac ovens. See what the real science says about that. Because lets face it, Who is better at understanding vacuum and atmospheric pressure? haha

Maybe the 'wax' in rosin/dabs is actually just 'tar' residue as if just smoking the flower itself?

No it's "cuticle wax" from the outer surfaces of plants. It can be removed by "winterizing" extracts. Actually I doubt it's the wax that collapses lungs though. More likely the way people smoke, holding their breath. I actually tried smoking the wax from winterizing once a little while ago, to see if there really wasn't any THC in it. Apparently not, because I didn't get high, but felt no ill effects. Can't see how wax could collapse lungs though. I guess it's possible it stays in there but I actually doubt that too. Still, no point chancing it when it's fairly easy to remove.

Actually, looking at the article page again I see it wasn't collapsed lung but another lung problem.

A patient is described who developed mediastinal emphysema from prolonged and repeated Valsalva maneuvers while smoking marihuana. The patient's recovery was uneventful.

source

Another similar one. Maybe edibles would be a better route, or just not even using, but how easy is that? Edibles it is I guess. Or maybe just don't breathe in deep and hold it.

Pneumothorax in polysubstance-abusing marijuana and tobacco smokers: three cases.
Feldman AL1, Sullivan JT, Passero MA, Lewis DC.
Author information
Abstract
Three patients are reported who suffered spontaneous pneumothorax, each of whom also had a history of daily marijuana and tobacco use. The patients ranged in age from 24 to 37 years, had smoked marijuana on a daily basis for 10 to 14 years, and had 11 to 50 pack-year tobacco-smoking histories. Marijuana may predispose to pneumothorax both by accelerating tobacco-induced lung disease, and by the frequent performance of the Valsalva maneuver during marijuana smoking. Although there is an association between pneumothorax and heavy tobacco use, an association with chronic daily marijuana use has not previously been reported.

source

 

[CriticalCheeze]

What doesn't make sense is all the scientific claims of people suffering whatever it may be from smoking, but they're still to confirm a death related to it. Then when they bring in Tobacco users it only makes things more unclear. But basically what they're saying is if you smoke cannabis AND smoke tobacco that the cannabis will induce tobacco RELATED disease much faster than 'normal'?

 

[BobCajun]

What doesn't make sense is all the scientific claims of people suffering whatever it may be from smoking, but they're still to confirm a death related to it. Then when they bring in Tobacco users it only makes things more unclear. But basically what they're saying is if you smoke cannabis AND smoke tobacco that the cannabis will induce tobacco RELATED disease much faster than 'normal'?

Yeah apparently, but what I gather so far is that it's the way people smoke whatever that causes the lung collapses. Like say you took a big hit of concentrate and were trying to hold it in while also resisting coughing, basically coughing with your mouth closed. That's going to create a lot of pressure and possibly blow out a lung, so to speak. But of course smoking anything will be bad for the lungs in general. I would think that the closer you get to pure THCA/THC the less harmful it would be.

Terps and other assorted compounds are certainly not lung friendly. Try breathing in turpentine vapor sometime. Probably be a little hard on the lungs. Well, that's pinene, a common terp in Cannabis. Also, limonene is another common terp but if you ever buy orange air freshener, made from orange oil, it'll say on the package that it's an irritant. Why would anyone want to purposely inhale a known irritant?

 

[CriticalCheeze]

Yeah apparently, but what I gather so far is that it's the way people smoke whatever that causes the lung collapses. Like say you took a big hit of concentrate and were trying to hold it in while also resisting coughing, basically coughing with your mouth closed. That's going to create a lot of pressure and possibly blow out a lung, so to speak. But of course smoking anything will be bad for the lungs in general. I would think that the closer you get to pure THCA/THC the less harmful it would be.

Terps and other assorted compounds are certainly not lung friendly. Try breathing in turpentine vapor sometime. Probably be a little hard on the lungs. Well, that's pinene, a common terp in Cannabis. Also, limonene is another common terp but if you ever buy orange air freshener, made from orange oil, it'll say on the package that it's an irritant. Why would anyone want to purposely inhale a known irritant?

Good point. If im not mstaken also, When gasoline is left out to sit for a long time it actually breaks down into turpentine. A main ingredient in paint thinner. Now the question is how do they get these terpenes into their products, derived FROM the natural terps or the actual terps themselves?

As far as holding in a hit and coughing while no presssure escapes is so scary for me to even think about anymore, even though it's been 8 years since i had any incident, The lung pros for sure said that is one of the worst ways. The amount of pressure put up against your chest wall and diaphram is outrageously high. Im so glad i don't smoke tobacco anymore.

In the end though, Cannabis be bad or not... would be hard to give up. Alcohol? Not so much. Alcohol destroys everything.

 

[sparkygeek]

I read in "The Pot Book", a surprisingly good medical book on Cannabis, that it's not good to inhale too deeply or hold your breath after inhaling. I dab rosin frequently, I find it's even smoother than BHO. I don't find a tremendous difference in how my lungs feel when I dab versus when I smoke. (My throat hurts much less when I dab.) I'm sure the fewer chemicals in the lungs the better but I haven't had a lot of crumble so I can't offer any opinion versus the other methods. Very interesting thread!

 

[CriticalCheeze]

I read in "The Pot Book", a surprisingly good medical book on Cannabis, that it's not good to inhale too deeply or hold your breath after inhaling. I dab rosin frequently, I find it's even smoother than BHO. I don't find a tremendous difference in how my lungs feel when I dab versus when I smoke. (My throat hurts much less when I dab.) I'm sure the fewer chemicals in the lungs the better but I haven't had a lot of crumble so I can't offer any opinion versus the other methods. Very interesting thread!

Funny you say that because i have read similar things, as well as stated by bob. Just weird how they say it can open airways, help asthmatic people, LUNG CANCER PATIENTS, etc. There are sooooo many answers left to so many questions. And as much of a supporter for cannabis i am and the medical properties of it, i feel like theres still too much 'bro science' out there on cannabis.

 

[sparkygeek]

Funny you say that because i have read similar things, as well as stated by bob. Just weird how they say it can open airways, help asthmatic people, LUNG CANCER PATIENTS, etc. There are sooooo many answers left to so many questions. And as much of a supporter for cannabis i am and the medical properties of it, i feel like theres still too much 'bro science' out there on cannabis.

I agree with you... As a medical patient, I am astounded at the idiocy of federal politicians standing in the way of doctors... effectively preventing them from helping their patients! Unfortunately, when you prevent real science, I guess all you can hope for is "bro science"! I guess any science is better than no science! BTW, I highly recommend the Pot Book! Each chapter is written by a different medical expert or researcher. All the experts in CNN's first special "Weed" seem to have a chapter in the book. (One point for real science!)

 

[CriticalCheeze]

I agree with you... As a medical patient, I am astounded at the idiocy of federal politicians standing in the way of doctors... effectively preventing them from helping their patients! Unfortunately, when you prevent real science, I guess all you can hope for is "bro science"! I guess any science is better than no science! BTW, I highly recommend the Pot Book! Each chapter is written by a different medical expert or researcher. All the experts in CNN's first special "Weed" seem to have a chapter in the book. (One point for real science!)

Valid point! Better than none for now haha. Yeah sounds interesting, will have to check into it, im sure amazon will have it lol they have everything.

 

[sparkygeek]

Valid point! Better than none for now haha. Yeah sounds interesting, will have to check into it, im sure amazon will have it lol they have everything.

That's where I picked it up. It is an incredible collection of available data put together by leading doctors and researchers... the book's title does not do the it justice!

 

[BobCajun]

I think I figured out what's been causing all the collapsed lungs, it's bongs. That's right, you have to inhale against a resistance in order to pull the smoke through the water. Pull too hard and you got yourself a collapsed lung. Coughing would cause the opposite, a lung blowout. I never use bongs and therefore I've been spared the indignity of lung collapse. What would you say when the doctors ask "what you been sucking on, son, cuz your lungs lost the tug-o-war". And you reply "it was just a 5 gallon bong". And he says "you putz! Get the hell out my office".

 

[Fadedawg]

I found something a little concerning.



And


Is it from the wax? Possibly. I watched a video on making extracts yesterday and the guy mentioned that you always need to winterize because the wax will stay in your lungs and you could get a collapsed lung. First time I heard that. Thought he might be mistaken, but apparently not. Might be best to stick with bud, though there would be wax on bud too. But maybe it's so diluted by the other smoke components that you can cough it out. Or maybe even smoking bud is dangerous. But I don't think anyone ever reported collapsed lungs from smoking bud.

Anyway, the popularity of extracts may start to decline when word about this gets around. I wonder if pure THC or THCA would also cause it. Probably not. Would just all be absorbed. Maybe now those types of extracts will become the popular ones, even though they have no flavor or anything. That's the only extracts I'll ever be smoking from now on. I'll look into this more. I know of people I see on YouTube who are hitting big-ass dabs regularly, like Farmer Joe. Every video he dabs up. Obviously it's a legitimate concern. Lots of google results when searching about it.

The terpenes and terpenoids in cannabis are all flammable hydrocarbons, so what enters your lungs combusting them is different from what enters vaporizing them. One difference is that vaporizing doesn't turn any of them into free radicals and carcinogenic byproducts of pyrolysis like burning them does.

Plant waxes burn, so enter the lungs as combustion byproducts, with some vapors escaping ahead of the flame, and vaporizing produces all vapor. The lungs are not built to operate coated with wax, so it does what lungs are designed to do under those conditions, and they attempt to expel what ever troubles them by coughing.

The mixture of raw oleoresins contain monoterpenes which are expectorants, so expect to cough even after the plant waxes are out of the equation, and the real issue is how hard and long you cough. Hard enough to break a rib or collapse a lung is excessive and Mother Natures way of telling you to back off.

From my own experience, I cough far less dabbing than smoking, so I gave up smoking several years ago to save my lungs.

From experience and what I've observed, a big dab produces more coughing than a small dab. Huge dabs are a guaranteed coughing fit for most mortals.

Of interest, is that a huge dab of clear, is harder to clear your lungs of and stop coughing, than a huge dab of shatter. I once gave an associate the size dab of Clear that he requested, and he almost stopped breathing, with bug eyes before he started slowly coughing and gasping for breath.

I asked him if he was OK, and he gasped that he was fine but the Clear seemed to just hang around, rather than be expelled in a fit of coughing.

I offered him a paper towel and some Live Resin, to promote coughing. He said with eyes full of tears and snot running from his nose, "No thanks! I would like another big dab of that stuff as soon as I'm able."

 

[BobCajun]

Interesting story.

"Hey guys I'm new to this forum and just made this account a few minutes ago. On Thursday afternoon I picked up a quarter from a friend and grinded a little bit up and took a bong hit and right after i took my first hit i began feeling an intense chest pain. To make a long story short, I ended up going to the emergency room Friday afternoon with a partially collapsed left lung. The doctor said it went down to about the 5th rib."
source

 

[matthend]

^^^ happens pretty often. I would wager he is a tall skinny guy,as this is the demographic that it happens to. He probably gave himself the pneumothorax trying to hold in that first hit.

also, @Fadedawg, this is hilarious and he is my hero!

Of interest, is that a huge dab of clear, is harder to clear your lungs of and stop coughing, than a huge dab of shatter. I once gave an associate the size dab of Clear that he requested, and he almost stopped breathing, with bug eyes before he started slowly coughing and gasping for breath.

I asked him if he was OK, and he gasped that he was fine but the Clear seemed to just hang around, rather than be expelled in a fit of coughing.

I offered him a paper towel and some Live Resin, to promote coughing. He said with eyes full of tears and snot running from his nose, "No thanks! I would like another big dab of that stuff as soon as I'm able."