rock dust or azomite?
- Thread starter im4satori
- Start date
prostheticninja
Well-Known Member
I've heard afomite isnt such a good choice due to the contamination of metals like Al. I still use it, but will be switching to dust when this bag is gone. Just don't mulch with your leaves, should you use azomite.
backtracker
Well-Known Member
gleaned from the net:
"Different rocks contain different minerals, and so serious gardeners and farmers have a soil test done that includes mineral needs, and then seek out the specific kinds of rock that can help. Granite dust, for instance, contains lots of potassium—the K in the NPK fertilizer ratio. Rock phosphate, a 'single dust' that's available in packages at most garden centers, just supplies phosphorus. But ground basalt (pronounced "ba-salt") contains a nicer mix—phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium and iron."
"But rock dust alone won't do it. As J. I.' s geology professor, Dr. Richmond Myers explained, many of the nutrients in even the most finely ground rock dust are locked up tight. An active soil teeming with microbes is the best way to get those minerals into a form that can be used by plants. And compost is the ideal medium for such activity."
"Aluminum (Al) is the most abundant metal in the earths crust, comprising about 7% of its mass. Since many plant species are sensitive to micromolar concentrations of Al, the potential for soils to be A1 toxic is considerable. Fortunately, most of the A1 is bound by ligands or occurs in other nonphytotoxic forms such as aluminosilicates and precipitates. However, solubilization of this A1 is enhanced by low pH and A1 toxicity is a major factor limiting plant production on acid soils. Soil acidification can develop naturally when basic cations are leached from soils, but it can be accelerated by some farming practices and by acid rain (Kennedy, 1986). Strategies to maintain production on these soils include the application of lime to raise the soil pH and the use of plants that are tolerant of acid soils."
"Different rocks contain different minerals, and so serious gardeners and farmers have a soil test done that includes mineral needs, and then seek out the specific kinds of rock that can help. Granite dust, for instance, contains lots of potassium—the K in the NPK fertilizer ratio. Rock phosphate, a 'single dust' that's available in packages at most garden centers, just supplies phosphorus. But ground basalt (pronounced "ba-salt") contains a nicer mix—phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium and iron."
"But rock dust alone won't do it. As J. I.' s geology professor, Dr. Richmond Myers explained, many of the nutrients in even the most finely ground rock dust are locked up tight. An active soil teeming with microbes is the best way to get those minerals into a form that can be used by plants. And compost is the ideal medium for such activity."
"Aluminum (Al) is the most abundant metal in the earths crust, comprising about 7% of its mass. Since many plant species are sensitive to micromolar concentrations of Al, the potential for soils to be A1 toxic is considerable. Fortunately, most of the A1 is bound by ligands or occurs in other nonphytotoxic forms such as aluminosilicates and precipitates. However, solubilization of this A1 is enhanced by low pH and A1 toxicity is a major factor limiting plant production on acid soils. Soil acidification can develop naturally when basic cations are leached from soils, but it can be accelerated by some farming practices and by acid rain (Kennedy, 1986). Strategies to maintain production on these soils include the application of lime to raise the soil pH and the use of plants that are tolerant of acid soils."
im4satori
Well-Known Member
i reading up on the basalt rock dust
awesome!
happy to identify an iron source
I see it has a large source of Si,
so I assume it drives the ph up???
so that would be a ?slow release? of K, Si and many micros
how slow is the release
is it something youd amend after each use to recharge or is it super slow only needing amending every few years
obviously soil tests would be the way to answer that, but im looking for a starting point so whats the general rule of thumb?
awesome!
happy to identify an iron source
I see it has a large source of Si,
so I assume it drives the ph up???
so that would be a ?slow release? of K, Si and many micros
how slow is the release
is it something youd amend after each use to recharge or is it super slow only needing amending every few years
obviously soil tests would be the way to answer that, but im looking for a starting point so whats the general rule of thumb?
im4satori
Well-Known Member
good read
I use both, neither at very large amounts.
Granite dust because it's plentiful here and stupid cheap, like, $5 for 75lbs cheap. Pretty much only apply it once since it takes years to break down and the peat in the mix will degrade before it does, ~4 years for the peat. I'll use 2cups/cf max and usually a bit less.
Azomite is much faster, but still a slow release, like over a years time rather than many years. It's a clay, not a rock based. I'll use 1cup/cf of Azomite and may, or may not add 1/2 cup every other year.
The whole thing with the Al toxicity is kinda bunk (Granite contains more Al). For the Al to release, the pH needs to be so low that it would kill the plant, somewhere around 4.5, or in that area. Massive overapplication of humic acids will also do it, but will cause deformities in the plant before reaching that point.
BTW, worm castings provide the right amounts of humic and fulvic acid with no danger of over application, especially homegrown VC. I quit using the BioAg stuff ~6 years ago when the worm bins started producing and never looked back.
HTH
Wet
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
so I think I've we've had this conversation before, regarding granite and radioactivity, right?
5% is radioactive naturally, anyways, I just stumbled on to some fascinating shit..
read this, it's a study regarding fulvic acid and humic acid being able to neutralize radioactivity.
mindboggling how much we DON"T know about the ground itself.
It's amazing how there is an answer to almost anything that the planet can throw at the ground, oil spills cleaned up by microbes that eat the oil, acids neutralizing radioactivity..
fuckin crazy
And us humans think we are soooo clever..
F.W. Pauli stated that the solubility, migration, and accumulation of uranium are influenced by humic and fulvic acids. The fuel discharged from the light water reactors is contaminated with substantial amounts of plutonium and uranium. These ions react with humic compounds at a much more rapid rate than do copper, nickel, lead, or cadmium ions.[117]
Pillai and Mathew agreed that it would not be unrealistic to presume that the geochemical behavior of plutonium and uranium is influenced by humic substances. They reported the presence of plutonium in purified organic material extracted from coastal sediments and indicated the possibility of the accumulation of plutonium on organic surfaces because the concentration of plutonium increased over time. As they confirmed that the organic matter solubilized the plutonium, they discovered that the addition of organic matter inhibited the hydrolysis and precipitation of the added plutonium. It was further reported that this scenario duplicates the action with uranium and other radioactive elements.[118]
Rashid stated that nuclear reactor wastes contain unused uranium, the basic fuel, and long-lived fission product nuclides and actinides, including plutonium, strontium-90, zirconium-95, iodine-129, cesium-137 and cesium 135, all in abundance. Activated metals such as cobalt-60, iron-59, and manganese-54 also are present in reactor waste. He states that the basic reactions of these materials with humic substances are parallel to those of other transition and trace metals.[119]
“Radioactive elements have an affinity for humic and fulvic acids. They form organo-metal complexes of different adsorptive stability and solubility. Uranuim and plutonium are influenced by humic substances as are other polluting metals, each being solubilized and absorbed, thereby annihilating that specific radioactivity.” [120]
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
basalt is the superior mineral in my opinion, it doesn't affect the PH at all, you only need it once and then reamend like maybe two yrs later, it's very slowly used.
greensand and basalt together is whats in my soil from yrs ago, haven't reamended minerals yet
a made a smaller batch prior to that that has azomite in it along with rock phosphates.
I'm not entirely certain what happens when they need to be reamended because I haven't seen any deficiencies
I admit i'm not entirely certain how crucial the minerals are when you have other things supplying micronutrients, like comfrey, dandelion, compost, kelp, etc.
After the soil is assembled I don't know if I ever will need to re-mineralize.
It's probably worth mentioning that I am a big fan of "less is more", and "if it ain't broke don't fix it"
Probably the biggest most often made mistake with growers is tinkering too much.
Human nature though, we are accustomed to assuming "more work put in, gets better results"
which will bite you in the ass with plants..
natureboygrower
Well-Known Member
how much greensand do you use? i have 42 gallon containers id like to try that in.the soil i mixed last year included basalt.im wondering what im going to amend with this spring. would neem meal be beneficial?
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
neem is one of my favorite nutrients, I must have in my opinion.
as far as the greensand, I amended lightly with that, probably around 4-5 cups for my compost pile, which made probably around 150 gallons of compost or so.
it does NOTHING for the first year or so, sorta acts like aeration, actually absorbs a lil water too.
I just love the slow release amendments, all of them damn near.
Slow, consistent release of nutrients.
Seems to match well with the growing techniques and style I prefer.
If you had 42 gallon containers you can probably (almost certainly) go another run without amending.
2nd run is often the best in fact
course much of that is predicated on the soil makeup, and how big the previous plant was
natureboygrower
Well-Known Member
ok cool.that sounds great about not amending too much this run.i followed coots recipe when mixing my soil last spring.plants were big but didnt reach their full potential in such large containers i feel.i'll try throwing a cup of greensand in this spring,would you add any neem? i was planning on topping the containers off with a little compost anyways.
dannyboy602
Well-Known Member
It has to do with particle size. Granular as opposed to powder. It doesn't break down the way organic material "breaks down". Its more about the concentration of azomite as a solution and the immidiate needs of the plant.
Here is a better description than I can pen myself.
All of the grades of AZOMITE® are largely insoluble in water. When only AZOMITE® and moisture are present in the soil, a static equilibrium is established, in which the majority of the AZOMITE® is present as a solid, and the minor amount is present as a solution of the AZOMITE® elements. As soon as a plant is introduced into the soil, the plant begins to take up some of the dissolved elements of AZOMITE®, thereby disturbing the original static equilibrium. In order to try to restore the static equilibrium, more AZOMITE® dissolves, but only at the rate, and to the extent, required by the plant itself. The equilibrium has now changed from static to dynamic and this situation continues for as long as the plant requires the dissolved AZOMITE® elements from the soil. Thus the situation is a true “Slow Release” mechanism, with the process being dictated entirely by the plant itself. By contrast, and as an example, the nitrogen in a typical NPK fertiliser is in a very soluble form, and is always totally available in the soil. However, a plant can only use so much fertiliser at any given time, and what the plant does not take up is washed away by irrigation or rain, or drainage by percolation, and is thereby lost as runoff.
So as I am understanding it some of the azomite is available right away. I was under the assumption, and I don't know where I read this, that it needed months to become available. But the description above sounds legit. It wasn't coppied from another weed forum where more misinformation exists than anywhere.
Here's even more faq about azomite.
http://www.azomite.com/resources/faq.pdf
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
i'd just do the compost for now, I bet the soil is right about perfect for a second run.
topdress some compost in the top like 6 inches or so.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
I stopped using Azomite because apparently it has a ridiculous amount of fluoride and chlorine in it. I use CC's mineral/rock dust mix.
2 parts Basalt
1 part Gypsum
1 part Oyster Shell Flour
I also like to throw a little Glacial Rock Dust into the mix for the variety, but you can totally go without it.
2 parts Basalt
1 part Gypsum
1 part Oyster Shell Flour
I also like to throw a little Glacial Rock Dust into the mix for the variety, but you can totally go without it.