45 days of vegging and still no roots?

[Al B. Fuct]

Jesus, this is a pain in the ass.

Sorry.

Well I went to the hydro shop to talk with the guy. I asked him about getting a 100% synthetic 2 - part fertilizer. He told me that there are no 2 part fertilizers that are 100% inorganic, except for the dry-mix kind. .

Your hydro shop guy

a) doesn't know what he's talking about
b) doesn't sell what you asked for
c) all of the above.

Canna is a 2-part inorganic nutrient.

He recommended that I stick with GH and go with their 3 part get-up. When I asked about a 2 part AN nute he told me that the only ones that are two part would in fact be two part times two.

Well yeah, veg & flower. I use Canna Vega for mums & Flores for the flowering plants.

I just ended up getting the 3 part GH "Flora" series.

Can you alter the mix of that to suit veg?

I did the cloning. Let's see if luck is on my side :chuckle: Will update again soon

Yep, hope it works.

 

[Ngozer]

Your hydro shop guy

a) doesn't know what he's talking about
b) doesn't sell what you asked for
c) all of the above.

Canna is a 2-part inorganic nutrient.

I am beginning to suspect this as well. Sometimes it's hard though trying to explain things to him while trying to not explicitly say marijuana. I'm not really sure how universal plant problems are.

Well yeah, veg & flower. I use Canna Vega for mums & Flores for the flowering plants.

So by 2 part nutes are you talking about a veg vs flower with two parts to mix for each?

Can you alter the mix of that to suit veg?

Yeah, but it's not the clearest directions.

Yep, hope it works.

Update:

Well when I first cut them and popped them into bubbler they all wilted over. I was just left shaking my head, thinking, "Why oh why didn't I listen to Al!" But by the next morning they had all perked up. It's been since Saturday now and they all look good. No yellowing or wilting.





Unfortunately, Ms. A has had some more time to mature and her pre-flowers are becoming more clear. It looks like this her is actually a him. At least it was good experience. Here he is:







Here's Ms. B:









Here are some pix of my thermometer and sensor. RF too high?





Here's a Purple Kush clone that I got a couple of weeks ago:



Last, but not least, I yanked the Runt. Here's a picture of his roots @ death:

 

[Al B. Fuct]

I am beginning to suspect this as well. Sometimes it's hard though trying to explain things to him while trying to not explicitly say marijuana. I'm not really sure how universal plant problems are.

Depends on the plant! Skip the hydro guy, come here first when trying to sort out plant probs. You can usually get at least my best guesses, but there's a number of other competent growers here of whom you can solicit a 2nd opinion.

So by 2 part nutes are you talking about a veg vs flower with two parts to mix for each?

Yeffir. 2-part types are mixed using equal parts of "A" & "B" in water. My 125L flowering tanks get 400ml each A & B. That's the sum of the mixing instructions.

Yeah, but it's not the clearest directions.

grr. Well, if you read carefully, you HOPEFULLY should be able to make a mix suiting either veg or flower.

Update:

Well when I first cut them and popped them into bubbler they all wilted over. I was just left shaking my head, thinking, "Why oh why didn't I listen to Al!" But by the next morning they had all perked up. It's been since Saturday now and they all look good. No yellowing or wilting.

Good. Now, keep an eye out for stem tip rot.

Unfortunately, Ms. A has had some more time to mature and her pre-flowers are becoming more clear. It looks like this her is actually a him.

shit.

Here's Ms. B:

This one doesn't look good at all. Hopefully your change to inorganic nutes will fix that. Is this the one you pruned back?

Here are some pix of my thermometer and sensor. RF too high?

Presuming you meant RH. 69% is on the high limit of acceptable. I'd worry about powdery mildew at that RH.

Last, but not least, I yanked the Runt. Here's a picture of his roots @ death:

yep, got some root rot happening, but it looks like it was beginning to recover- I see some fresh white roots. Trying to work out what the crumby looking stuff is.

 

[Ngozer]

Good. Now, keep an eye out for stem tip rot.

What does root rot look like? It's been 5 days now since the cutting took place. It's suppose to take anywhere from 6-10 days to root. Things were looking great until last night. I noticed some yellowing happening. Now the bottom-most leaves of each clone is dying and curling up. I'd been dealing with unwanted growth with frequent dosing of H2O2 and res changes. I am not too worried about these guys, since it looks like they're a bunch of dudes, but it would be good chance to get some practice. What can I do to resolve the burning?

shit.

Is there some sure-fire yeah to figure out the sex? I've only eyeing it against pictures I've seen online. I want to take pictures to post, but my camera can't focus on them.

This one doesn't look good at all. Hopefully your change to inorganic nutes will fix that. Is this the one you pruned back?

No, this is Ms. B. The one that was curled up like claws and is only now recovering. Her new growth is good, but a lot of her old stuff is fucked up so she still looks pretty bad. In the past two days she's shot up and I think I should be able to clone her in a week. I did prune her a ton though. I got so fed up one night I sniped off all her ugly growth. Anyway I can push for growth on her lower area? She's just growing straight up so fast, she might be up against the glass before I want to clone her.

Question: Most of her tips are burnt and seems like its slowing her growth. Should I just snip them off?

Presuming you meant RH. 69% is on the high limit of acceptable. I'd worry about powdery mildew at that RH.

Yeah, RH, sorry. Well it fluctuates and 69% is definitely on the very high side. Typically it is around 55 - 60% is that okay? Powdery mildew? Hmmm... I think I do that this powdery mildew you speak off. I wasn't sure if it was a growth or just nute residue on exposed areas of my RW.

yep, got some root rot happening, but it looks like it was beginning to recover- I see some fresh white roots. Trying to work out what the crumby looking stuff is.

The crumbly stuff is perlite. Where is the root rot? All of the brown stuff? If it is, then I bet Ms. A and Ms. B have it too. I don't know how to get rid of it. The pH levels have been stabilized by shitloads of H2O2, but I don't know how to get to the plant's upper root that are hiding in the RW. I don't want to saturate the RW so I don't know how to deal with it. Suggestions?

PS... is that powdery mildew on the side of the Runt's RW (in the root pic)

Thanks.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

What does root rot look like?

Roots are browned or tan in appearance.

It's been 5 days now since the cutting took place. It's suppose to take anywhere from 6-10 days to root. Things were looking great until last night. I noticed some yellowing happening.

Oh, I'm looking at cuttings? They won't have any roots to rot. However, the yellowing I see looks like the stem tips are rotting. This is a persistent problem with aerocloners and is also exactly why I don't use them.

Now the bottom-most leaves of each clone is dying and curling up. I'd been dealing with unwanted growth

unwanted growth... of?

with frequent dosing of H2O2 and res changes. I am not too worried about these guys, since it looks like they're a bunch of dudes, but it would be good chance to get some practice.

What can I do to resolve the burning?

I don't think we're seeing a burn here, rather an insufficient supply of water to the cutting due to the rotted stem tip/s.

Is there some sure-fire yeah to figure out the sex? I've only eyeing it against pictures I've seen online. I want to take pictures to post, but my camera can't focus on them.

Just compare what you see on your plants to pics of male plants you have found.

Anyway I can push for growth on her lower area? She's just growing straight up so fast, she might be up against the glass before I want to clone her.

New growth should pop up fairly soon. If they grow faster than you need them to, just prune them back, or do a batch of cuttings.

Question: Most of her tips are burnt and seems like its slowing her growth. Should I just snip them off?

sure, you can snip off the old growth if you want.

Yeah, RH, sorry. Well it fluctuates and 69% is definitely on the very high side. Typically it is around 55 - 60% is that okay?

yep, under 60% should be OK.

Powdery mildew? Hmmm... I think I do that this powdery mildew you speak off. I wasn't sure if it was a growth or just nute residue on exposed areas of my RW.

Powdery mildew will appear on leaves, but probably not on the RW.

Where is the root rot? All of the brown stuff?

yep.

If it is, then I bet Ms. A and Ms. B have it too. I don't know how to get rid of it. The pH levels have been stabilized by shitloads of H2O2, but I don't know how to get to the plant's upper root that are hiding in the RW. I don't want to saturate the RW so I don't know how to deal with it. Suggestions?

Root rot is commonly caused by overwet conditions. Reduce the watering duration/frequency and keep treating the nutes with H2O2.

PS... is that powdery mildew on the side of the Runt's RW (in the root pic)

No, powdery mildew will grow on leaves.

 

[Ngozer]

Day 96 of vegetative growth.

Roots are browned or tan in appearance.

So any discoloration from white is a bad thing?

Oh, I'm looking at cuttings? They won't have any roots to rot. However, the yellowing I see looks like the stem tips are rotting. This is a persistent problem with aerocloners and is also exactly why I don't use them.

Stem rot? What does that look like? I check the stem tips every once in a while and they just seem the same as they did when first cut... except whiter. Nothing looks especially rotten, but the necrosis of the leaves is progressing. Is there anything I can do to save these guys or should I just dump them now? I don't get it. The op that I copied the aerocloner from said he had 99% success rate with it. How come only some stuff works for some people? If stem root is such a problem how come so many people use these bubblecloner designs?

I wanted to make a bubbler system because:


1. It seems more convenient to change the water every other day than to water all 12 clones everyday.

2. I would guess that the clones would have more access to O2 in an aerocloner.

3. I like the idea of getting to see the whole process of root growth versus just imagining it in my head.

4. I don't think it's very economically to buy 12 RW cubes and then toss most of them cuz I'm only keeping a handful of clones. I don't even have a compost pile! It would all just go into the garbage.


Al, I completely trust you with my op so if you think that aerocloner is really the wrong way to go I'll drop it like a bad habit, but it you think there is anyway of making this work I would really appreciate it.

unwanted growth... of?

Things that might do my plants harm? Fungi, mold, mildew, etc. Whatever it is that you are using the H2O2 for in your cloning op.

I don't think we're seeing a burn here, rather an insufficient supply of water to the cutting due to the rotted stem tip/s.

What do I do, brother?! Is stem root too much/not enough water? Does it mean light is leaking in? Is pH not right? Too hot? I have an aquarium heater in the res keeping the H2O a toasty 30 - 32 degs C (as recommended by the OG designer). All of the DIY bubblecloners that I have read about seem so successful. There has to be something wrong that I am specifically doing wrong... unless the posters are dirty liars that are just trying to frustrate newbs, which I doubt .

Just compare what you see on your plants to pics of male plants you have found.

Sigh... it's looking like a sausage-fest.

New growth should pop up fairly soon. If they grow faster than you need them to, just prune them back, or do a batch of cuttings. sure, you can snip off the old growth if you want.

Okay sweet. I've been pruning the shit out of Ms. B. That's probably why she looks so shitty, cuz I've taken 40% of her fucked up stems and leaves. I've been targetting any leaves with significant damage (over 30% necrosis or yellowing).

Powdery mildew will appear on leaves, but probably not on the RW.


No, powdery mildew will grow on leaves.

Okay, but what do you think that white shit is then? It forms on most of the exposed surfaces of my RW cubes and is white and powdery. Do you think it's a problem?

Root rot is commonly caused by overwet conditions. Reduce the watering duration/frequency and keep treating the nutes with H2O2.

So if a root has root rot, once it's not being overwatered anymore it'll recover or will another root grow to replace it like the top growth?

Thanks for helping me try to keep them dream alive

 

[Al B. Fuct]

So any discoloration from white is a bad thing?

Yep!

Stem rot? What does that look like?

Stem tips go brownish & squishy.

Is there anything I can do to save these guys or should I just dump them now?

Recut the stems and work out a way of not getting the stems quite so wet.

I don't get it. The op that I copied the aerocloner from said he had 99% success rate with it. How come only some stuff works for some people? If stem root is such a problem how come so many people use these bubblecloner designs?

Consult the person who was getting the 99% success rate. Clearly, you're missing something from the way that person was doing things.

I very frequently got stem rot in aerocloners and so abandoned them.

1. It seems more convenient to change the water every other day than to water all 12 clones everyday.

Yep, but if stem rot is hard to avoid, that convenience is moot.

2. I would guess that the clones would have more access to O2 in an aerocloner.

Not a very significant feature in cloning, to be honest. When a plant has got roots and is actively growing, more O2 is better, but the O2 level difference to the stem tip in cloning between an aerocloner and RW cubes on a heat mat isn't going to make tons of difference. When an aerocloner is working well, you'll see root nodes in 5 days. Same happens in RW cubes, but it'll be another 2 days before you actually see roots out of the bottom of RW cubes, only because they have to grow through the RW.

3. I like the idea of getting to see the whole process of root growth versus just imagining it in my head.

Is that better than higher reliability?

4. I don't think it's very economically to buy 12 RW cubes and then toss most of them cuz I'm only keeping a handful of clones. I don't even have a compost pile! It would all just go into the garbage.

When you're proficient with RW cubes on a heat mat, you won't waste any cubes. You'll get 100% every time (or damn close to it).

Al, I completely trust you with my op so if you think that aerocloner is really the wrong way to go I'll drop it like a bad habit, but it you think there is anyway of making this work I would really appreciate it.

Obviously, there's some folks who have gotten aerocloners to work with high reliability; I'm just not one of them.

unless the posters are dirty liars that are just trying to frustrate newbs, which I doubt .

I agree, but there's clearly some detail missing from your process.

Okay, but what do you think that white shit is then? It forms on most of the exposed surfaces of my RW cubes and is white and powdery. Do you think it's a problem?

Gotta be mould of some sort.

So if a root has root rot, once it's not being overwatered anymore it'll recover or will another root grow to replace it like the top growth?

Root systems can be regenerated once the condition causing the rot is fixed.

 

[NoDrama]

Al, your doing a fine job, I just wanted to add a couple things myself. In an aerocloner the leaves are going to yellow some, this is totally normal. Mine always yellow out and I have a 100%, Mind you I don't do it the way it was intended. I have a Hybrid setup where I use 1" RW cubes and put them in the aerocloner holes, then I only turn my water on 1 time per day for 30 seconds-2 minutes, sometimes I forget a day. I have 2 12" airstones going 24/7. Once I have roots showing out the bottom of the cubes, I add a bit of fert to water and turn pump on 24/7. within 1 day the roots will be 6-8 inches long and can be transplanted to a different medium to go into Veg. Been using this for about a year now, 100% so far doing 45 at a time, haven't lost one yet out of the hundreds. Temp of res water is room temp 70F, I don't use a heater. 400 W MH 18" away in cool tube on 18/6, no dome, no spraying. avg time spent in aerocloner is about 12-14 days. It could probably go faster, but why mess with 100%?


One more thing, I have looked at most of the recent pics, and I cannot tell any of the sexes, are you sure your right about the sex? Most don't look like they have shown anything yet, better up close pics ( Macro mode on camera) would be helpful.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

Thanks for that ND.

The yellowing on your leaves is occurring because it's taking too long for the clone to set root and the nutes in the leaves are being consumed. I see yellow leaves when cloning in RW cubes when it has taken more than 10 days for them to root, because I have overwatered, which I still occasionally do when I am in a hurry and don't take proper care with watering my RW cubes.

I suspect that it is taking so long for yours to root because the 1" cubes you are using are being saturated by the aerocloner. RW is very easy to saturate and this will slow rooting speed to a crawl. If you correct the process so that rooting occurs in about 7 days, you will not get the yellowing leaves and the clones will be more vigorous earlier on in the piece, giving you faster growth and higher yields.

 

[Ngozer]

Update: Wow, sorry for the abrupt leave, but things got hectic and my plants went from priority one to last place. Luckily, things are cooling down and I have more time to invest into my babies.

A lot has changed since my last post. I have yanked Mr. A, but not before getting some good, hands-on practice with various cloning techniques, including bubbler, rockwool, and perlite. So far, I have had about 35 clones. Only about 10 have rooted (0 bubbler, 4 rw, 6 perlite). 1 has been put into a pot of its own to see how a transfer works. Btw, when I tossed Mr. A, I took a look at his roots. They were pretty dense. Thick enough to choke a baby. It made me wonder two things: Is it possible the pot was constricting the plant's root system and limiting the plant's growth? On the top side though, Mr. A's growth was quite vigorous so it didn't look like it was limited, but I don't really know what the potential actually was. Second, The roots were dense in the perlite, but it didn't look as if the roots had grown further down into the pellets. Any ideas why that is? Could it from the level of my flood? Since I have a small reservoir, I can only flood my tray about an inch and a half up, which coincidentally around where the perlite ended and the pellets started in my pot.

Going back to my cloning, I'm pretty sure I'm fucking something up, because my clones always look like shit. They are mostly yellow and have all of the big leaves burnt up. All of the clones small leaves are shriveled and curled. Does that mean too much or too little? Should I even bother trying to transplant them. Al's emphasis on not overwatering has made me paranoid and I fear my cubes get a bit too dry sometimes. I for the rw clones, I water them once or twice a day with about 12 - 24 ml of water (not always pHed - does this make a big difference? (approx. 6.5 - 7 pH unaltered)). Does it sound like I am doing something wrong? It seems to work somewhat, but like I said earlier, the clones look pretty fucked up. I will try to post some pictures soon.

NoDrama, your method sounds interesting. I think I will give it a shot for my next batch. How high from the rw do you have your waterline?

Also, I was wondering if a veteran, such as yourself, could explain to me the general time scale in which I should be expecting things to happen. From my general reading, I was undering the assumption that a grow cycle is about 3 months (1 for veg and 2 for flowering). Am I wrong? My first set of plants took about 3 months to be in a situation where I could even start considering flowering. I chalked it up to my poor growing abilities. Since then I have purchased a few clones of different strains, but they all seem to grow equally slowly to my first plants. I have a clone of sensei star that I got about a month and a half ago. The thing is still puny. It's grown, but it doesn't look like any of the pictures that I see of other people about around the same time. How would I know if something was going wrong? It doesn't have any really major problems, other than the older leaves turning yellow and curling.

I will try to upload some current pictures when I get the chance. Thanks for your help!