How much pheno variation should be expected?

[Humanrob]

These aren't the greatest pictures, but here are the three Forgetful Cindys I have going this run, and two Amnesia Hashplants. The two FCs in the first pic happen to be the tallest and shortest plants in this run (the shorter one is actually up on blocks to try and bring it closer to the shared canopy, so the difference is greater than it looks).

Is this a "normal" amount of variation? Beyond the height difference, looking at bud structure and growth patterns, to me they look like different strains. Assuming the lineage is strong, I suppose that means we have more variety in the grow and I guess that can be "fun"... but I was kind of looking forward to curing plants of the same strain and being able to throw the all in the same jar, now it looks like they'll all need to be dried, cured, weighed, and stored separately.

I expect some variation, I'm just wondering what the normal spectrum is.


Two Amnesia Hashplants





Forgetful Cindy

Both circled plants are FC

 

[elephantSea]

33.13333%

 

[Thundercat]

I've seen a good amount of variation over the years from some seeds. What is the cross of the forgetful Cindy, looks like one leans towards the Cindy Side, and the other towards the forgetful side lol.

I ran some C99 a few years ago and got a 50/50 mix of 2 phenotypes. I also did some testing for Sin City Seeds and among those there was lots of variation in some strains. They didn't all make the cut though. I know they never marketed some of the ones I ran, so it must have been issues with other testers too.

 

[Humanrob]

33.13333%

Was it a dumb question? I fully believe there is such a thing, and I am capable of asking them.

I've seen a good amount of variation over the years from some seeds. What is the cross of the forgetful Cindy, looks like one leans towards the Cindy Side, and the other towards the forgetful side lol.

I ran some C99 a few years ago and got a 50/50 mix of 2 phenotypes. I also did some testing for Sin City Seeds and among those there was lots of variation in some strains. They didn't all make the cut though. I know they never marketed some of the ones I ran, so it must have been issues with other testers too.

Forgetful Cindy = Amnesia Hashplant x Cindy 99...

So far I've grown a few of these indoors and outdoors, some of the phenos are outstanding, other just meh. The thing is, my grows are getting smaller and smaller and I'm down to just one a year, so I don't have the luxury of experimenting as much, I need to buy seeds and have the highest probability possible that they will produce what the breeder claimed they would. Good luck, eh?

I made some crosses myself one year, and the first gen (F1?) test run had about the same range of variation that these seeds have. That just seems wrong to me.

 

[Thundercat]

Well yeah if the cross is to a hash plant it makes perfect sense that one pheno might be super short.

I haven't ever ran more then 10 of any seed at once. I've done that many with several strains and have always found a few phenos I wanna say at least. I have always tried to make a point of growing from clones and keeping mother plants. I've had several strains that I kept and ran for around 4 years each at different times. I'm currently running one I've had for about 5 years now.

 

[Thundercat]

You should checkout Docs Dank Seeds. He is a member here that I've watched come up and start breeding. He puts a lot of love into his work, and from the testers and reviews on his page things seem to be consistently dank as fuck! I haven't ran any of his strains yet but I should be within the year.

 

[Humanrob]

Well yeah if the cross is to a hash plant it makes perfect sense that one pheno might be super short.

I haven't ever ran more then 10 of any seed at once. I've done that many with several strains and have always found a few phenos I wanna say at least. I have always tried to make a point of growing from clones and keeping mother plants. I've had several strains that I kept and ran for around 4 years each at different times. I'm currently running one I've had for about 5 years now.

I'm not set up to grow year round, so I can't keep a mother. Being in a legal state I can get clones, I'm trying to use up seeds I bought from when I used to grow outdoors. I'm only doing one grow per year now, an indoor winter grow, so I have lots of time between them to plan out what I'll do next. Even though I've been growing for years, I also find the gap between grows gives me a lot of time to forget what I know...

I'll check out Doc's seeds, thanks for that.

 

[Velvet Elvis]

looks pretty normal to me. looks like ones more cindy leaner than the other. ive ran many kids of cindy crosses.

variation all depends on parents and how worked the line is. if a regular polyhybrid, you might not get 2 alike out of a 10 pack..

 

[JohnDee]

Rob,
I'm not familiar with the parent strains...but most of what's out there are poly-hybrids. There still are some solid IBLs but even those can display pheno variation. As your f-1 experience showed.

Only way to keep them all genetically the same is clones...
JD

PS And no it wasn't a dumb question but elephantSea's response was ailly and incorrect

 

[Anothermeduser]

Might not be a dumb question the same as elephant sea might be brilliant and nailed it. The Buddha says always entertain the opposite is also true

 

[elephantSea]

Was it a dumb question? I fully believe there is such a thing, and I am capable of asking them.

not at all, just having fun

 

[Rob Roy]

Seems like variable pheno type expression is linked to more pollen chucked unstabilized "strains" on the market these days. Then those unstabilized strains are used as breed stock, which opens the door to more possible genetic recombinations in the resultant seeds. Hence "variable phenos".

Used to be when growers / breeders would describe a plant they'd refer to it as "Colombian", "Mexican" or "Afghan" or "Thai" etc. Even crosses would make references to which part(s) of the world the genetics came from.

Now it seems most of the seed descriptions refer to catchy or not so catchy names of the parents, rather than a geographical origin reference. While even a landrace has variability, probably not as much as the newer mongrel stuff on the market.

Not putting down pollen chucking, gems can be found, but a lot of time can be wasted vegging and flowering duds too.

So the answer to the original question....it all depends.

 

[promedz]

These aren't the greatest pictures, but here are the three Forgetful Cindys I have going this run, and two Amnesia Hashplants. The two FCs in the first pic happen to be the tallest and shortest plants in this run (the shorter one is actually up on blocks to try and bring it closer to the shared canopy, so the difference is greater than it looks).

Is this a "normal" amount of variation? Beyond the height difference, looking at bud structure and growth patterns, to me they look like different strains. Assuming the lineage is strong, I suppose that means we have more variety in the grow and I guess that can be "fun"... but I was kind of looking forward to curing plants of the same strain and being able to throw the all in the same jar, now it looks like they'll all need to be dried, cured, weighed, and stored separately.

I expect some variation, I'm just wondering what the normal spectrum is.


Two Amnesia Hashplants

View attachment 4271843
View attachment 4271844


Forgetful Cindy

Both circled plants are FC
View attachment 4271845

View attachment 4271848

View attachment 4271847

View attachment 4271846

when you have kids at different times (not twins) your kids will come out looking like mom, dad, mom and dad, or just plain ugly! same thing with plants from seed... clones are twins! twins you can store in same jar..

 

[promedz]

Seems like variable pheno type expression is linked to more pollen chucked unstabilized "strains" on the market these days. Then those unstabilized strains are used as breed stock, which opens the door to more possible genetic recombinations in the resultant seeds. Hence "variable phenos".

Used to be when growers / breeders would describe a plant they'd refer to it as "Colombian", "Mexican" or "Afghan" or "Thai" etc. Even crosses would make references to which part(s) of the world the genetics came from.

Now it seems most of the seed descriptions refer to catchy or not so catchy names of the parents, rather than a geographical origin reference. While even a landrace has variability, probably not as much as the newer mongrel stuff on the market.

Not putting down pollen chucking, gems can be found, but a lot of time can be wasted vegging and flowering duds too.

So the answer to the original question....it all depends.

are you reffering to homogeneous? ive grown some plants that no matter how many seeds i pop its the same plant! homogenous! now i only seen probably 2-4 strains out of 100 that are actually like that.. the rest all vary

 

[Rob Roy]

are you reffering to homogeneous? ive grown some plants that no matter how many seeds i pop its the same plant! homogenous! now i only seen probably 2-4 strains out of 100 that are actually like that.. the rest all vary

I think the reason there's so much variety is because they can. Meaning many seeds on the market have such a diverse genetic background it's hard to predict which trait(s) will surface if you pop a 10 pack of seeds. Some breeders stabilize traits better than others before releasing seeds for sale. Knowing which ones can be helpful.

I'll refer you to @JohnDee post above. I think he explained it well.

 

[Thundercat]

Sadly I don't think most "breeders" are really doing much breeding any more. To properly breed you need to select from 1000+ plants to isolate specific traits. Then cross and back cross multiple times to get a true stablized plant with uniform traits. I dont know all the genetic details, but I believe it needs to be a minimum of 4 generations of crossing to get to that point.

 

[waxman420]

Check out dankonomics thread hacks some dank and seems like he loves the plant.

 

[THT]

@Humanrob , if these are f1 generation seeds you can expect a very wide range of expressions. Some being closer to mama, or papa, or a mix of both. You will probably find upwards of a dozen unique expressions which could by all rights be their own strains, and dozens more variations within that are closer to one parent or the other.

 

[Humanrob]

This is what gets me, all the first gen releases. And I have to wonder if the parents were even stable. I think there are occasions where you have two very strong stable parents, and 90% of the variations that come from them on a first cross will be great plants regardless of which parent it leans towards -- and I suspect that's what some breeders are banking on. The rest is selective memory and confirmation bias, where we over-emphasize the successes and ignore the failures as a way of rationalizing selling an inferior product.

When I did my own crosses I was having fun and I would give them a name. I don't think a hybrid sold professionally should be allowed to have a name until it's at least 3rd or 4th generation. So for instance I crossed LSD and Bruce Banner #3, and it should be known as LSDxBB#3 until it is stabilized, at which point if I want I can call the new strain Lucy Banner (our nickname for it). I'm not aware of any actual oversight in the industry (yet?), maybe it'll happen some day. I have seen breeders mention -- and charge more -- for F3 or F4 seeds, so maybe the public slowly becoming educated will push things.

Some breeders stabilize traits better than others before releasing seeds for sale. Knowing which ones can be helpful.

Sadly I don't think most "breeders" are really doing much breeding any more. ...I dont know all the genetic details, but I believe it needs to be a minimum of 4 generations of crossing to get to that point.

@Humanrob , if these are f1 generation seeds you can expect a very wide range of expressions. Some being closer to mama, or papa, or a mix of both. You will probably find upwards of a dozen unique expressions which could by all rights be their own strains, and dozens more variations within that are closer to one parent or the other.