Grow Lights

[Magicole]

Starting off, I feel confident in the way I grow and I’ve gotten feed back that tells me so. Although I’m sound cocky I understand that I always have room for improvement. As long as I feel that you are able to provide evidence that is justifiable I will change my ways. I’ve created this thread to see what other people think about “common” grow lights.

Following will be statements on how I feel lights not only spread light but what lights do best in different situations and plant stages. Also keeping in mind that this is close to if not optimal and unique situations call for unique solutions. One last thing this is for indoors only, not greenhouses or utility, keeping the light cycle in check.

Tube light (t5s, t8s, and t12s)

• I wouldn’t use t8s or t12s
• T5s are great for clones, seedlings, and small vegging plants
• I wouldn’t flower under these light
• I would however keep medium sized mothers under these (3 feet or smaller)
• 2” to 6” from canopy

Single ended HID’s (400w, 600w, 1000w)

1. 400w

• I feel do good in a 4’by4’ in veg and a 3’by3’ for flower
• I wouldn’t use in any multiple light applications
• 12” to 18” from canopy

2. 600w

• I am under the impression these are used extensively outside of the United States
• A 6’by6’ in veg and a 4’by4’ in flower
• For multiple light applications that the flower footprints increases to a 5’by5’ on interior lights. I would checkerboard metal halide’s and high-pressure sodium’s.
• 18” to 24” from canopy

3. 1000w

• A 6’by6’ in veg and a 5’by5’ in flower
• Again if used in a multiple light application the foot print increases to a 6’by6’ on interior lights. I also checkerboard.
• 18” to 30” from canopy

Additionally This is being used in the traditional style horizontally inside of a reflector.

Double ended (600w&750w, 1000w)

1. 600w&750w

• They need 24” from canopy
• Can’t be truly be air-cooled
• Comparable to single ended 1000w

2. 1000w

• They run hot
• You need 3’ from canopy
• Cover 6’by6’ footprint all day
• They are ~25% brighter then single ended 1000w bulbs
• Can’t be truly be air-cooled
• Superior light penetration

CMH (315w, 630w DE)

1. 315w

• Covers a 3’by3’ area 4’by4’ if using two bulbs in a single hood
• 12” to 24” from canopy
• Great balanced spectrum for veg and flower
• For the wattage and some special cases only way to go

2. 630w DE

• Can cover a 4’by4’ some hoods(sun systems) 4’by5’
• 12” to 24” from canopy
• Again great spectrum
• Definitely proof that lights are changing and for the better!

LED’s
Due to the complexity of this conversation I’m going to break it up as much as I can while staying somewhat simple.

1. Bar LED’s

• Great for clones, seedlings, and small vegging plants
• I have found they work extremely well as supplemental lighting and increasing the spectrum of the room
• Would work good for mothers as long and you train the plant around the light pattern.
• 6” to 12” from canopy

2. “Brick” LED’s (Kind 1000XL, SK 602, Black Dog 1000...)

• These lights tend to have a hot spot under them and have an exponential drop in light levels to the sides. These I’ve experienced have better penetration then “wide spread” LED’s
• If kept far enough from canopy most 4’by4’ no matter what the Company states. Up to 6’by6’ in multiple light applications
• Depend on light 12” to 30” from canopy

3. “Wide spread” LED’s (Bml’s spydr 1200, Nextlight mega, Gavita pro 1700e...)

• Because the way I think LED’s work (like a light laser) I’ve seen that these do have a better footprint vs the brick LED’s.
• For overall footprint depending on fixture size 6” from edges
• 6” to 18” from canopy

Even though there are much more options when it comes to lighting these three main categories is what I think of. I have experience using all tube lights, HIDs, and CMH’s brought up. I have not had experience with all of the LED’s stated I have used the BML spydr 1200 and the spectrum king 602’s. I would assume that these are comparable to the other ones mentioned. I am basing that statement on the research that I have done and the feedback that I’ve gotten from customers in the indoor gardening supply store I work at. I understand there is a much larger conversation that can be had, but feel this is the most simplest way I could break it down.

If you made it this far then I would love to hear what your two cents is!

 

[pulley]

i know this is question may sound stupid to you experienced growers but i"m new and have heard the rule of thumb that gram per watt but say 1000 w four plants why does that =250g per plant and not lets say 500g a plant each plat is getting that same 1000w

 

[Magicole]

Okay first off you worded it a little funny from what I understand you’re saying why can’t each plant pull 500 g versus 250 g under a 1000w. If this is the case square footage is different then plant count. Some people will run 48 plants under a single thousand watt and have a sea of green. Others will use a single plant and still fill the exact same amount of square footage. A 1000w can cover a 5 x 5 meaning that each square foot is getting 40 W of power that means that each square foot regardless of plant count should be pulling 40g for experienced people some say they can pull up to 100g in that same square foot. I hope I helped if not please continue to ask!

 

[pulley]

i appreciate you taking the time to explain. that does make better since thank you

 

[pulley]

gonna be doing 4 plants under two 630 cmh lights just trying to get a general idea on what to possibly/realistically to expect in a 5x9 built space i like to think i learn fast so i will be topping with a little LST
fox farm nutes and there feeding schedule yes i watch a lot of youtube

 

[pulley]

i welcome any advice that might help me out

 

[Magicole]

Sounds like you have a really good idea. Research is important just keep at it! I think that your going to be set! Also thanks for bringing up CMH I can’t believe I spaced those.

 

[Frank Nitty]

What about QB'S??? You cant leave them out!!! Blurpies??? Mars hydro???

 

[Magicole]

I just brought up the “expensive” LEDs that are on par with the ones I have used. This is optional, in my opinion Mars is not an optional LED. I’ve never seen commercial grows use these lights. QB’s are middle grade. Blurples are staring to get fazed out and are old tech. Like I said though it’s a really complex and extensive conversation. If you would like to continue elaborate into one and we’ll go from there.

 

[Frank Nitty]

Im not the one for those type of conversations... Im just a guy that uses what works for me and other people ive seen... Some with HUGE growing areas all run on QB's and led strips... @diggs99 has an awesome light strip set-up!!! Even knock off qbs and strips are killing shit out here!!! Like I said before, I can't give you light specialist talk but from what I've seen nothing right now is even close to touching boards and strip set-ups...

 

[Magicole]

I’m curious where are you located if you don’t mind me asking. I mostly have relationships in Northern California and Southern Oregon. Where there is a small percentage of people who purely use LED’s. Because of this, my experience has been a little different then that. I’m going to look more into diggs99 this intrigues me!

 

[Frank Nitty]

I’m curious where are you located if you don’t mind me asking. I mostly have relationships in Northern California and Southern Oregon. Where there is a small percentage of people who purely use LED’s. Because of this, my experience has been a little different then that. I’m going to look more into diggs99 this intrigues me!

Midwest

 

[Frank Nitty]

I’m curious where are you located if you don’t mind me asking. I mostly have relationships in Northern California and Southern Oregon. Where there is a small percentage of people who purely use LED’s. Because of this, my experience has been a little different then that. I’m going to look more into diggs99 this intrigues me!

Y'all old school for sure!!! The originators, if you will...

 

[Magicole]

Y'all old school for sure!!! The originators, if you will...

Haha, that’s for sure. I literately know 75 year old guys that have been doing it since they were 10. It’s pretty amazing. The weird thing is, they are the ones staying in the Stone Age of growing. The age group of people who are adapting to the times of new techniques and technology are 20ish to 40ish.

 

[Frank Nitty]

Haha, that’s for sure. I literately know 75 year old guys that have been doing it since they were 10. It’s pretty amazing. The weird thing is, they are the ones staying in the Stone Age of growing. The age group of people who are adapting to the times of new techniques and technology are 20ish to 40ish.

If it's not broken you don't have to fix what works!!! They need to learn though that there are cheaper more efficient ways of growing these days...

 

[Magicole]

A lot of opinions are efficient and cheap don’t line up with quality. And let me tell ya unless your stuff is top shelf and not Midwest top shelf but a whole other grade it doesn’t sell. People are picky as hell here!!!

 

[xtsho]

Haha, that’s for sure. I literately know 75 year old guys that have been doing it since they were 10. It’s pretty amazing. The weird thing is, they are the ones staying in the Stone Age of growing. The age group of people who are adapting to the times of new techniques and technology are 20ish to 40ish.

Stone age of growing? Really? You say they have been doing it for 65 years and it's amazing. How is the smoke they grow? If they're growing great weed then maybe you should try and find out what they're doing.

The times of new techniques and technology? Plants haven't really changed in the short time since LED's have hit the scene. They still grow the same. Other forms of lighting provide just as good of light. HID's have been growing fire for decades. LED's grow fire weed as well. Some of us have equipment that works perfectly well. I use a 4 bulb 4 ft T5 in my 2 x 4 veg tent. It works great for everything from seedlings to mature plants. I flower in a larger tent with a 600 watt HPS. I'm extremely happy with the results and have no desire to spend $600 to replace my lighting to get the same results just to keep up with the technology. The cost benefit ratio doesn't work out. It would take me five years to recoup the cost from the power savings LED's provide and I wouldn't have any better results. In fact it would actually hinder my growing since you need to keep LED's higher than the T5's or my 600 watt HPS using a sealed hood.

LED's are not new technology. They've been around since the 1960's. They're just refining the technology for specific applications. In this case growing cannabis. HID's are seeing an evolution as well with CMH and double ended bulbs. Both have their pro's and cons depending on the individuals growing setup and location. Someone using something that works for them is not them living in the stone age but them using what works best for their conditions. Some people welcome the added heat of an HID while others like the power savings of the LED. But there is a false narrative regarding power use with LED's. Those ads that say a 150 actual watt draw equals a 600 watt HID are just false advertising. The LED's that are growing the good weed are pulling close to what an HID is pulling. A 125 watt LED that claims it can replace a 600 watt HID can't.

HID's are proven technology. The decades of their use proves that. LED's are proven as well but many of these LED's are using new technology that hasn't been proven over the course of years. They're refining it faster than anyone can actually do a survey and track any issues. I remember that capacitor incident years back. By the time they identified it there were bulging capacitors on hundreds of pieces of electronic equipment all across the world. What if in a couple years components start to fail?

I buy Samsung phones. I just upgraded from my S7 to an S9 not too long ago. I know the S10 is out but it's a new phone, the S9 cost less than half as much, and all the bugs have been worked out or identified. You don't have to buy the latest technology to keep up with technology.

Anyway, not trying to rag and no I'm not 75 and offended. Just some hopefully non confrontational discussion and a different perspective.

 

[Frank Nitty]

A lot of opinions are efficient and cheap don’t line up with quality. And let me tell ya unless your stuff is top shelf and not Midwest top shelf but a whole other grade it doesn’t sell. People are picky as hell here!!!

I bet!!!

 

[xtsho]

A lot of opinions are efficient and cheap don’t line up with quality. And let me tell ya unless your stuff is top shelf and not Midwest top shelf but a whole other grade it doesn’t sell. People are picky as hell here!!!

We've been picky here in Oregon for decades. Where do you think a good portion of the top shelf that you've been getting in the Midwest for decades came from? We're pot snobs out here in the true west. Have been for years. I'm sure it's getting out there still since we have a six year plus surplus supply.

 

[Magicole]

Stone age of growing? Really? You say they have been doing it for 65 years and it's amazing. How is the smoke they grow? If they're growing great weed then maybe you should try and find out what they're doing.

The times of new techniques and technology? Plants haven't really changed in the short time since LED's have hit the scene. They still grow the same. Other forms of lighting provide just as good of light. HID's have been growing fire for decades. LED's grow fire weed as well. Some of us have equipment that works perfectly well. I use a 4 bulb 4 ft T5 in my 2 x 4 veg tent. It works great for everything from seedlings to mature plants. I flower in a larger tent with a 600 watt HPS. I'm extremely happy with the results and have no desire to spend $600 to replace my lighting to get the same results just to keep up with the technology. The cost benefit ratio doesn't work out. It would take me five years to recoup the cost from the power savings LED's provide and I wouldn't have any better results. In fact it would actually hinder my growing since you need to keep LED's higher than the T5's or my 600 watt HPS using a sealed hood.

LED's are not new technology. They've been around since the 1960's. They're just refining the technology for specific applications. In this case growing cannabis. HID's are seeing an evolution as well with CMH and double ended bulbs. Both have their pro's and cons depending on the individuals growing setup and location. Someone using something that works for them is not them living in the stone age but them using what works best for their conditions. Some people welcome the added heat of an HID while others like the power savings of the LED. But there is a false narrative regarding power use with LED's. Those ads that say a 150 actual watt draw equals a 600 watt HID are just false advertising. The LED's that are growing the good weed are pulling close to what an HID is pulling. A 125 watt LED that claims it can replace a 600 watt HID can't.

HID's are proven technology. The decades of their use proves that. LED's are proven as well but many of these LED's are using new technology that hasn't been proven over the course of years. They're refining it faster than anyone can actually do a survey and track any issues. I remember that capacitor incident years back. By the time they identified it there were bulging capacitors on hundreds of pieces of electronic equipment all across the world. What if in a couple years components start to fail?

I buy Samsung phones. I just upgraded from my S7 to an S9 not too long ago. I know the S10 is out but it's a new phone, the S9 cost less than half as much, and all the bugs have been worked out or identified. You don't have to buy the latest technology to keep up with technology.

Anyway, not trying to rag and no I'm not 75 and offended. Just some hopefully non confrontational discussion and a different perspective.

You know it’s really funny because I wasn’t trying to talk up LED’s in fact like I use a mix of HIDs and LED’s because I feel that LED’s aren’t to the point of fully replacing HIDs. Continuing on when I say new technology and techniques I mean it a lot has changed in the past 30 years most of the older growers I talk to are recently finding out about lsd, srog, toping and other plant training styles. Along with “new” growing techniques like sog, vertical growing and so on. Now most of the styles stated have been popular for 20 25ish years that’s new to some people. As far as LED’s and cmhs go these are all new-ish innovations when it comes to this industry. And yes HIDs are proven and I feel are still sitting at the top but even then I have people that come into my shop and don’t know what a double ended bulb is. Additionally the main point to my Stone Age remark was that they grow outside and don’t top the plant and let nature take its course. I understand this was slightly out of context but 65 years ago indoor growing wasn’t really a thing and the exchange of information on growing was almost nonexistent. And I find that they have been growing more then twice as long as I’ve been alive amazing not necessarily the quality that they grow.

As far as LED’s in regards to wattage pull your half way right. Yes most led companies talk bull shit. But, for example I use the SK602 this light pulls 630 watts at the wall. My par with this light is above the Single ended 1000w bulbs i compared it to. Which was a broken in but brand new bulb eyehortilux hps.

Just an after thought co2 and sealed rooms is mind blowing to a lot of people no matter their age. A plant not needing fresh air? It’s out of few people scope of understanding.

This is the point I meant to make, at the end of the day most grows get to the finish line it’s just a matter of who’s happy with the way they got there.