Will SCOTUS strike down affirmative action

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
They deserve much, much more.

AA is a bandaid on a rape victim. The problems are systemic, and the solution has to be aswell.
They don't need to repeal AA though to do something better.

Especially since it is going to take 60 votes, and there are not many Republicans I would count on to actually do something to help us all achieve as much as we can in life regardless of where we started out.
 

HGCC

Well-Known Member
Affirmative action is such a tricky one, because on the one hand I understand and agree with the reality that people of color have been disenfranchised from our society in so many ways over the past decades, and do deserve some extra assistance is attaining the "American Dream". However, I fear that affirmative action has the potential to swing too far, and have equal and opposite negative impacts, especially when it comes to hiring and admissions. Is it right and just that a lesser candidate is accepted to a position or institution, over an otherwise better candidate, simply based on their race? When we do that and favor white people, it's called illegal discrimination, but when we favor people of color we call it favoring diversity. It's really a tough call for me, because I do favor diversity.

Another question I have, is what exactly is a person of color? As an example, I'm white and my wife is latina (although relatively light skinned), and we have mixed kids who basically look white, but they are half-latino. Are they POC's?
How are they viewed in your local area? National conversations arent great for a lot of topics. Some places they would be viewed as wet backs while others they are as white as anyone else. Along those lines, you also have the reason that affirmative action makes perfect sense and is necessary, while it may seem like some sort of reverse racism to others.

There is still quite a bit of racial divide in many cities/towns, never been to one where the black area has comparable services/schools/etc. to white areas. It is necessary to level that playing field a bit.
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
How are they viewed in your local area? National conversations arent great for a lot of topics. Some places they would be viewed as wet backs while others they are as white as anyone else. Along those lines, you also have the reason that affirmative action makes perfect sense and is necessary, while it may seem like some sort of reverse racism to others.

There is still quite a bit of racial divide in many cities/towns, never been to one where the black area has comparable services/schools/etc. to white areas. It is necessary to level that playing field a bit.
How are their viewed, on paper or in plain vision? On paper they can check off the Hispanic/Latino box, in person you'd think they are white unless they spoke to you in Spanish. My wife is an immigrant from Central America, but if you spoke to her on the phone you'd think she was white too, since her English accent is very Californian, although English is a 2nd language for her.

Our local area is made up of sanctuary cities, and a relatively high latino population. The most of my block is made up of people of color. Neighbors on one side are Mexican, neighbors across the street are ingenious Mexican, neighbors on the other side are Filipino. They probably all think of us as white, except my wife who they likely think of as a "white latina". I remember a few years ago in a Mexican style supermarket some guy came up and asked me if I was an Irish Mexican, which made me laugh.
 

Skillcraft

Well-Known Member
Hello everyone. Sorry for being gone so long. We ate last night and I got full and went to sleep and then this morning we had our meeting with the superintendent. I am going to go back through this thread and answer the questions that were posed to me.
 

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
A very telling statement from a person who is actually close to a border. Texas was always a challenge in my former career, given the check point :o! LOL
GOP down here are just idiots when iit comes to the border down here, i live about 2 1/2 hr from the border, and the city i'm closest to is an immigrant city. Texas always had good relationship with Mexico, especially with our and they're history so close together. One of the ploys that there using is if you remember that Freedom Bridge thing that happened, those were Haitians mostly, that crossed, and they're using it as a major poilitcal point showing that picture all the time when they talk about immigration. They also use the word fentalyn all the time too as a scare tactic immigration point......
 

Skillcraft

Well-Known Member
the US/Mexico border is just short of 2K miles long, and there is 700 miles of fence...and the fence is essentially useless. any static obstacle can be overcome, and overcome faster and easier with experience.
there are about 16,000 border agents serving along the US/Mexico border...that is by far the largest law enforcement agency in the country, with a huge budget, 16.3 BILLION in 2022...
at the same time, we have a labor shortage, and inflation making food more expensive. if they stop migrant workers from coming across, food doesn't get picked/processed, and the price of food goes MUCH higher.

Every republican president since Reagan (and before) has put the country into a recession...that's a fact.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/05/28/fact-check-do-gop-presidents-oversee-recessions-dems-recoveries/5235957002/
republicans raise taxes on middle and lower class people, while giving tax cuts to the wealthy. that's also a fact.
https://itep.org/top-republican-tax-writer-falsely-claims-that-minimum-tax-for-huge-corporations-is-a-tax-hike-on-middle-class/

https://www.majorityleader.gov/content/republican-middle-class-tax-increase-america-s-middle-class-families-can-t-afford

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/08/biden-manchin-raise-taxes-middle-class-400000-campaign-promise-corporations-rich.html
First it is not the migrant workers that I am concerned with. It is not just Latinos that come across our southern border. There are people from just about every country coming across our borders. But we need border security to slow the flow of drugs and contraband coming across our borders. Second the US border patrol is not the largest law enforcement agency in the US. NYPD currently has 39,000 police officers and over 15,000 civilian employees. Third I am over 50yrs old. I remember reagen, bush, and Clinton. I have no complaints about either President. I also do not trust some of the sources you quoted. They are partisan one way or the other in my opinion. I will reply more in a bit. I am trying to answer everyone's questions.
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
I don’t have kids (edit: yet :) ) but am in a mixed marriage as well

I just have a difficult time understanding why it would be ok for me as a parent, to know my child who may not have worked as hard or I may not have given my all staying up late with them or whatever - could potentially take the spot of another child who put in the work to really stand out just because mine has a different race. If 100 applicants out of 1000 are accepted, having this ratio of white to brown to black to whatever should be way down the list of what matters, or not a factor at all.

“White people” are extremely diverse in background, beliefs, ways of life, etc so it’s just strange to me checking a box of race is even a consideration or a part of an application for higher education for the sake of diversity. Just like being black doesn’t make you automatically (insert whatever assumptions are made by someone else) or Asian people are (insert whatever assumptions are made by someone else.)

Im not opposed to making space for kids who may have come from difficult environments who may not have the highest test scores but show ambition and effort in their own way, (like a kid who has been working since 15 to help their family make ends meet, or they’ve taken care of a family member, or they were raised by the CPS system) but in my opinion race shouldn’t be a factor in those that are accepted

In my opinion no one should be included or excluded because of their race at a school or a company or anything really.
If you believe all races share the same potential, shouldn’t they also share the same percentage of representation throughout society?

They don’t, and the reason for that is because the system is rigged. If you accept that systemic racism is real, you must see why affirmative action is necessary.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
First it is not the migrant workers that I am concerned with. It is not just Latinos that come across our southern border. There are people from just about every country coming across our borders. But we need border security to slow the flow of drugs and contraband coming across our borders. Second the US border patrol is not the largest law enforcement agency in the US. NYPD currently has 39,000 police officers and over 15,000 civilian employees. Third I am over 50yrs old. I remember reagen, bush, and Clinton. I have no complaints about either President. I also do not trust some of the sources you quoted. They are partisan one way or the other in my opinion. I will reply more in a bit. I am trying to answer everyone's questions.
Take your time, I retired Friday :)!
 

Skillcraft

Well-Known Member
Remember “test less, and there will be less Covid”?
Under that man, they apprehended fewer, so obviously it was less of a problem then.
See how it works?
I did not like Trump's approach to the pandemic. He was a denier when it was evident that the virus was real. Border security was a problem under Trump but at least he was trying to do something about it instead of just doing nothing. What meaningful steps have been taking by this administration to stop or slow the problems. We are apprehending more people at the border now because more are coming across. I also do not like the policy of remaining here until their cases are hear. Because most just disappear into the shadows and never show. But I must say there has to be something better than what we have now.
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
I did not like Trump's approach to the pandemic. He was a denier when it was evident that the virus was real. Border security was a problem under Trump but at least he was trying to do something about it instead of just doing nothing.
I’d rather he did nothing than separate children from their parents. Was there something else he did that I missed?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I did not like Trump's approach to the pandemic. He was a denier when it was evident that the virus was real. Border security was a problem under Trump but at least he was trying to do something about it instead of just doing nothing. What meaningful steps have been taking by this administration to stop or slow the problems. We are apprehending more people at the border now because more are coming across. I also do not like the policy of remaining here until their cases are hear. Because most just disappear into the shadows and never show. But I must say there has to be something better than what we have now.
I disagree. That man’s wall concept was like so much else: pandering to some of our lowest impulses. What he did to young women (allegedly administering hysterectomies without consent; documented separation and caging of children) is not anything I want our republic to ever be doing.

The real problem imo is the wait time to naturalize. Look at these numbers. There should be no reason why it could not be done in 90 days.

 

Skillcraft

Well-Known Member
I’d rather he did nothing than separate children from their parents. Was there something else he did that I missed?
He started the erection of the border wall. It may not be perfect and may not be 100% but at least he was trying to secure the border by some means. He also stopped the stay until you go to court. I hated seeing the parents separated from their children just as many others did. But doesn't some of that responsibility lay at the feet of the ones that were coming here illegally? What else would you have done? Trump's policies were not perfect by any means but like I said at least he was trying something.
 

Skillcraft

Well-Known Member
I disagree. That man’s wall concept was like so much else: pandering to some of our lowest impulses. What he did to young women (allegedly administering hysterectomies without consent; documented separation and caging of children) is not anything I want our republic to ever be doing.

The real problem imo is the wait time to naturalize. Look at these numbers. There should be no reason why it could not be done in 90 days.

I agree with you. Our immigration policy is broken. It should not take years to get a visa or green card. But the answer can not be just let everyone come over and we will figure it out later.
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
He started the erection of the border wall. It may not be perfect and may not be 100% but at least he was trying to secure the border by some means. He also stopped the stay until you go to court. I hated seeing the parents separated from their children just as many others did. But doesn't some of that responsibility lay at the feet of the ones that were coming here illegally? What else would you have done? Trump's policies were not perfect by any means but like I said at least he was trying something.
Do you mean the wall that blows over in a strong wind? Even most congressional Republicans recognize the wall was a joke, coming from the mind of a simpleton.

When did it become illegal to try and gain American citizenship?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
They deserve much, much more.

AA is a bandaid on a rape victim. The problems are systemic, and the solution has to be aswell.
I don't know what outcome you think affirmative action was intended to accomplish. The purpose of affirmative action programs in colleges and universities is a tiny subset of removing problems due to systemic racism against black and brown people.

The issue I have with the argument that race based affirmative action "denies the most qualified" people from admission to a college" is, how "the most qualified" are identified. Is it just test scores and grades? Plenty of studies show that ACT and other college admission tests are poor predictors of academic success in college. Other studies show that economic status factors strongly in College admission test scores. Expensive time spent studying for college admission tests yield higher scores but are wasted on kids who go on to mediocre college careers. AND YET, colleges continue to use those test scores to identify "the best" candidates. GPA (grades 9-12) is much better better predictor of academic success. Another predictor is which high school one goes to. But is academic success in college the most important characteristic to judge "best candidate"?

From this article:

I give props and admiration to kids who do well in school. But the paper chase to straight A's does not set up the kid for success after college.

Across industries, research shows that the correlation between grades and job performance is modest in the first year after college and trivial within a handful of years.

My point is, when colleges assess 18 YO kids for admission, they should factor in their resilience, toughness, ability to do well in adverse conditions, creativity, leadership and teamwork skills, or social, emotional and political intelligence. These aren't skills that render well in tests. However a Black kid who manages to get good grades when attending an inner city high school. a kid from the reservation who manages to do well in sports and gets good grades at the same time or a girl who grew up in a rural district whose father died early in her life yet still managed to do well in school these might all be better candidates for producing a college graduate with the skills our society needs as an adult than a well off kid who did well in high school and was coached to score well in their ACT. So, yeah, I think race, gender, economic status are fair to factor into selecting the next generation of college graduates.

Grades are important too but perhaps not the most important. A black kid growing up in difficult circumstances who manages B- GPA might be every bit as good or better candidate compared to a white kid who grew up in the suburbs, went to a good HS and managed a B+ average. Maybe better.
 
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Skillcraft

Well-Known Member
Do you mean the wall that blows over in a strong wind? Even most congressional Republicans recognize the wall was a joke, coming from the mind of a simpleton.

When did it become illegal to try and gain American citizenship?
It is not illegal to gain American citizenship. But if people come over here illegally they will never gain citizenship. So by coming here illegally aren't they cutting off their noses to spite their faces?
 
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