Calcium Carbonate & CaCO3

[Week4@inCharge]

Exactly this. Whatever doesn't get absorbed by the plants will get caught in the runoff of the water upon watering.

RO water will certainly work. But, I prefer using Langbeinite because it is much cheaper in the long run, as it allows one to use the water in their favor by working with the water instead of against it.

A 50lb bag of Langbeinite can be had for $80-$100 on Amazon and will last the average grower a lifetime, where as a legit RO system costs $300+ and results in tons of wasted water.

I recommend reading the article that I linked to in my last post, it'll provide much more insight and explanation than I could as to why Langbeinite works as well as it does.

Regards.

Will do, thanks for the info.

Updated: I had ordered a box of the Langbeinite (just within this hour) and then remembered that I'm trying out this new dry amendment product with my current grow. I'm doing a few things different like cycle watering practices, filtered water, foliar sprays, and this proprietary dry amendment pack from Pride Lands. It has Langbeinite in it. So I canceled the Langbeinite order from Amazon. Now if things go south in a couple of weeks then for sure I'll grab the Down To Earth Langbeinite for the next run.

 

[kratos015]

Will do, thanks for the info.

Updated: I had ordered a box of the Langbeinite (just within this hour) and then remembered that I'm trying out this new dry amendment product with my current grow. I'm doing a few things different like cycle watering practices, filtered water, foliar sprays, and this proprietary dry amendment pack from Pride Lands. It has Langbeinite in it. So I canceled the Langbeinite order from Amazon. Now if things go south in a couple of weeks then for sure I'll grab the Down To Earth Langbeinite for the next run.
View attachment 5276316

Likely won't be enough to do the trick. Needs to be pure Langbeinite, not just a tiny amount that is part of an amendment mix. Won't be enough to break apart the salts, most likely.

Pure Langbeinite has 22% Sulfur from all the Sulfate (SO4) in it. Your mix likely has 10-12%, at best. It isn't so much the Langbeinite itself that does the trick, but the Sulfate content in it.

Worth a try, I suppose. However, 5lb of Langbeinite is only around $20 and will last the average grower multiple years. Personally, I'd rather spend the $20 on a for sure thing.

Regards.

 

[pahpah-cee]

@kratos015

thank you very much for taking the time to analyze my report and for writing such a great detailed response explaining things.

I’ve been chasing these issues for a while now. I definitely get that calcium build up on my bags after one run. Ive been fighting these problems with the occasional R/O flush and by adding a bunch of citric acid, bone meal flushes and epsom salt to bandaid the ph issues and mg deficiencies that spring up.

I grabbed some langbeinite to begin top dressing as you recommended. I’ll ditch the epsom salt. I’ve been building coots mix so I will ditch the lime (after I use up my 120gal of soil I already prepped).

Um last thing; industrial waste?! what the fuck. I knew water in LA is bad but that sounds pretty bad. I’m glad I invested in a RO system a while back. Not sure how I feel about my kids drinking that sludge.

 

[Week4@inCharge]

Likely won't be enough to do the trick. Needs to be pure Langbeinite, not just a tiny amount that is part of an amendment mix. Won't be enough to break apart the salts, most likely.

Pure Langbeinite has 22% Sulfur from all the Sulfate (SO4) in it. Your mix likely has 10-12%, at best. It isn't so much the Langbeinite itself that does the trick, but the Sulfate content in it.

Worth a try, I suppose. However, 5lb of Langbeinite is only around $20 and will last the average grower multiple years. Personally, I'd rather spend the $20 on a for sure thing.

Regards.

Yeah thanks for the input, I have it saved on my Amazon want list just in case. Hoping for the best preparing for the worst. Happy Growing

 

[kratos015]

@kratos015

thank you very much for taking the time to analyze my report and for writing such a great detailed response explaining things.

I’ve been chasing these issues for a while now. I definitely get that calcium build up on my bags after one run. Ive been fighting these problems with the occasional R/O flush and by adding a bunch of citric acid, bone meal flushes and epsom salt to bandaid the ph issues and mg deficiencies that spring up.

I grabbed some langbeinite to begin top dressing as you recommended. I’ll ditch the epsom salt. I’ve been building coots mix so I will ditch the lime (after I use up my 120gal of soil I already prepped).

Um last thing; industrial waste?! what the fuck. I knew water in LA is bad but that sounds pretty bad. I’m glad I invested in a RO system a while back. Not sure how I feel about my kids drinking that sludge.

Citric acid does help with some people, especially if the hardness in ppm is below 300. The only issue with Citric Acid as a solution to this issue is that one needs to always have Citric acid on hand, and use it constantly. Where as the Langbeinite only needs to be applied once or twice a month. The Langbeinite/sulfates themselves don't lower the pH, simply break apart the CaCO3 salt build up that results in excessive alkalinity in one's pH. Putting Langbeinite in your tap water won't lower the water's pH by itself, but by proxy of the CaCO3 being broken apart. I worded that kind of awkwardly, so hopefully that makes sense how I worded it.

The term "industrial waste" is a lot less shocking and frightening than it sounds, at least in this scenario. The definition for "industrial waste" that I found is: "Industrial waste is the waste produced by industrial activity which includes any material that is rendered useless during a manufacturing process such as that of factories, mills, and mining operations."

While that does sound scary at first, the "industry" that is likely being referred to is that of mining operations. So that "industrial waste" is likely just the waste product from mining and shouldn't be a cause for health concerns. Water Districts are extremely meticulous in how they treat water, so I highly doubt the "waste" is anything toxic.

All the best.

 

[pahpah-cee]

Citric acid does help with some people, especially if the hardness in ppm is below 300. The only issue with Citric Acid as a solution to this issue is that one needs to always have Citric acid on hand, and use it constantly. Where as the Langbeinite only needs to be applied once or twice a month. The Langbeinite/sulfates themselves don't lower the pH, simply break apart the CaCO3 salt build up that results in excessive alkalinity in one's pH. Putting Langbeinite in your tap water won't lower the water's pH by itself, but by proxy of the CaCO3 being broken apart. I worded that kind of awkwardly, so hopefully that makes sense how I worded it.

The term "industrial waste" is a lot less shocking and frightening than it sounds, at least in this scenario. The definition for "industrial waste" that I found is: "Industrial waste is the waste produced by industrial activity which includes any material that is rendered useless during a manufacturing process such as that of factories, mills, and mining operations."

While that does sound scary at first, the "industry" that is likely being referred to is that of mining operations. So that "industrial waste" is likely just the waste product from mining and shouldn't be a cause for health concerns. Water Districts are extremely meticulous in how they treat water, so I highly doubt the "waste" is anything toxic.

All the best.

the citric acid is working but I’d rather not be PH’ing my water when growing in soil. I’ll definitely switch to the langbeinite and not PH my water down. I’ve notice that if I PH my water and wait a day it’s basically back at the starting PH. The water is buffering like you mentioned previously. This occurs with citric acid and phosphoric acid.

breaking down the CaCO3 makes sense with how you’re explaining it. I think this is why liquid bonemeal was helping me as well. From what I read the bonemeal will bind with the salt build up.

Thanks for clearing up the industrial waste as well.

 

[Week4@inCharge]

I couldn't resist, it's 40% off on Amazon guys. Gets here Saturday

 

[Week4@inCharge]

And just read it's not a good idea to use dolomite limestone and Langbeinite together or you'll get toxic levels of Magnesium... well crap, next grow I guess.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

And just read it's not a good idea to use dolomite limestone and Langbeinite together or you'll get toxic levels of Magnesium... well crap, next grow I guess.

They also have potassium sulfate which doesn't have the Mg. I just got some of that to mess with.

the citric acid is working but I’d rather not be PH’ing my water when growing in soil. I’ll definitely switch to the langbeinite and not PH my water down. I’ve notice that if I PH my water and wait a day it’s basically back at the starting PH. The water is buffering like you mentioned previously. This occurs with citric acid and phosphoric acid.

breaking down the CaCO3 makes sense with how you’re explaining it. I think this is why liquid bonemeal was helping me as well. From what I read the bonemeal will bind with the salt build up.

Thanks for clearing up the industrial waste as well.

I thought liquid bone meal is mostly Calcium Carbonate. Not sure how that would help lower the levels. But maybe I'm missing something. I'll wait till Kratos answers your question.

 

[Week4@inCharge]

They also have potassium sulfate which doesn't have the Mg. I just got some of that to mess with.

I'm not experienced enough to measure out this stuff so that it doesn't "imbalance" the soil NPK. The proprietary mix I'm using is 2-5-5 so safe to use without worrying of over doing it. Now with this 0-0-22... easy to mess up a pot...or am I over thinking it.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

I'm not experienced enough to measure out this stuff so that it doesn't "imbalance" the soil NPK. The proprietary mix I'm using is 2-5-5 so safe to use without worrying of over doing it. Now with this 0-0-22... easy to mess up a pot...or am I over thinking it.

Just don't use a ton of it. Kratos is the man here. I've only been experimenting with Langbeinite for a little while. The potassium sulfate is like 0-0-50 but I just got that so don't have any actual experience yet. I did have some issues using Langbeinite a couple times. Once I had some K deficiency and so I added some. It actually made the K deficiency worse so I was assuming that was too much Mg locking out K. That's when I decided to find the potassium sulfate. I didn't check the pH of the soil though, so it might have been low pH. I'm not sure. I did try making a liquid version of it but I barely added any Langbeinite so I don't think that was it.

It's not hard to get an approximate NPK though. Just gotta average everything. For example 1 part 2-5-5 with 1 part 0-0-22 and you end up with 1-2.5-13.5. Not that you want to use that mix, but you get it,

 

[Week4@inCharge]

Just don't use a ton of it. Kratos is the man here. I've only been experimenting with Langbeinite for a little while. The potassium sulfate is like 0-0-50 but I just got that so don't have any actual experience yet. I did have some issues using Langbeinite a couple times. Once I had some K deficiency and so I added some. It actually made the K deficiency worse so I was assuming that was too much Mg locking out K. That's when I decided to find the potassium sulfate. I didn't check the pH of the soil though, so it might have been low pH. I'm not sure. I did try making a liquid version of it but I barely added any Langbeinite so I don't think that was it.

It's not hard to get an approximate NPK though. Just gotta average everything. For example 1 part 2-5-5 with 1 part 0-0-22 and you end up with 1-2.5-13.5. Not that you want to use that mix, but you get it,

Same boat as you on that Mg thing, for a while I thought it was Calcium (I'm still not sure) but... Do Not use Dolomite Limestone and Langbeinite together. I'm gonna mix up a soil mix (Thanks Home Depot) just for kicks and try that out for a round (indoor 4x2 ). Experiment with my "Hard" tap water and Langbeinite. If that works out, save me a lot of work from this RO unit.

 

[Wozza129]

I know this is unrelated guys but I told my gf to get me some langbenite while I was at work and when I got home she came back with sulphate of potash will this have the same effect as langbenite?

 

[Week4@inCharge]

I know this is unrelated guys but I told my gf to get me some langbenite while I was at work and when I got home she came back with sulphate of potash will this have the same effect as langbenite?

Sounds like something my wife would do, not sure man hopefully someone chimes in soon

 

[PadawanWarrior]

I know this is unrelated guys but I told my gf to get me some langbenite while I was at work and when I got home she came back with sulphate of potash will this have the same effect as langbenite?

That's potassium sulfate without the Mg. Does it say 0-0-50? I just got some of that I'm messing with but I don't have any plants growing now. Just trying to get it ready for next round. It's older reused soil. Langbeinite kicks ass but I thought I'd try this for when I don't need more Mg.

 

[Wozza129]

That's potassium sulfate without the Mg. Does it say 0-0-50? I just got some of that I'm messing with but I don't have any plants growing now. Just trying to get it ready for next round. It's older reused soil. Langbeinite kicks ass but I thought I'd try this for when I don't need more Mg.
[/QUOTE
That’s exactly why it is I’ve put some on the top of the soil of my tom’s as a trail anyhow.. but I figured it’s the sulphate properties that you want for the tap water so wth ‍

 

[Week4@inCharge]

So here's a twist.. anyone here use vinegar to pH down your tap water? YOUR HARD TAP WATER? Another camp just told me that vinegar will break the calcium carbonate bond in the tap water to a usable calcium?? This group I'm talking to are pure KNF (Korean Natural Farming) growers, they make their own everything for the soil grow.

And the concerns for the vinegar breaking down Calcium in the soil. They add glacial rock dust and gypsum, the fungi and root systems create their own acids to grab calcium.

 

[Week4@inCharge]

Calcium carbonate (hard tap water) binds to the undissolved carbon dioxide in water. Making it hard for the plant to uptake the Calcium. The infinity in Amino Acids is higher than that of carbon dioxide. That Calcium will then bond to the amino acid and be available for the plant uptake. The plants energy from producing its own amino acid will now go towards strengthening it's pest defense and flower production. Supplementing with Amino Acids can greatly aid the overall health of your plants.

Amino Acids. 40:38 mark of vid.

 

[King's Indican]

Wow, internet is great. Read the whole thread especially @kratos015 posts hope he comes back. I am having similar issues to most of yours.
I used to grow with mineral nutes getting huge harvests then wanted to switch organics I like it but always get deficiencies around week 7-8
which looks like calcium deficiency, rust brown spots on leaves, upper stems turn purple, pistils turn brown in mid flowering and reduced yield. I still prefer the taste though. This happens to some plants while others grow perfect dense buds.
My mistakes: Overwatering sometimes (because of drip irrigation not by hand) and Overfeeding maybe.
I use 5G air pots filled with biobizz lightmix and worm humus (3:1) mixed with Biotabs products. Plants grow exceptional until flowering kicks in.
im using my tap water which comes at 0.43 EC. Let is sit for two days and put into Blumat reservoir and plant feed itself. I make compost tee and molasses feeds occasionaly.

Some people told me I must supply more calcium (gypsum) simply because what is in tap water and the nutrients is nowhere close to enough when growing under leds. This is the most advise I get. I couldn't believe it because the products I use all contain some ca and mg in it plus the soil and humus that I used combined with the ingredients of tap water.

Second option is soil ph gets too acidic when I overwater and locks out nutrients. I tend to believe this more because im growing them very humid the surface of the soil never gets dry.

And by reading this topic Im thinking maybe my soil ph is too high because of the caco3 presence in my tap water.
Im not a chemist or nowhere near that my head overwhelmed reading about many chemical compounds and how they react each other.
This last option looks more real to me now because I always get deficiencies later in the grow. ( salt buildup overtime) and it binds the calcium and plant looks like it needs it.

I have read many things about soft water hard water ppms etc.. It's all confusing different parts of the world using different ppm derivations.
It may not be the best but im putting my water analysis.

Should I brita my water then add some gypsum epsom?
or adding sulphur? sodium bicarbonate?
this chart is april 2024 and it doesn't show camg levels or caco3

this is the only one I could find showing what we need but it's from 2018

I never get any leaves yellowing between the veins described as mg deficiency. The last time I get it I was using Zerowater filter.
With this organic method I stopped buying zerowater filters and just used tap water which bring me issues I never encountered while growing with mineral nutes back in the day. I really love the way I grow now and the harvest quality just want to improve my yields. Providing some plant photos in 4x4 tent
at day 42 looking perfect
day 55 plant already slow flowering
you don't see but stems are purple, pistils withered.

I threw off my ph pen so I can't measure don't know if it's low or high but feeling what im struggling is the same things discussed in this topic.

 

[Week4@inCharge]

Wow, internet is great. Read the whole thread especially @kratos015 posts hope he comes back. I am having similar issues to most of yours.
I used to grow with mineral nutes getting huge harvests then wanted to switch organics I like it but always get deficiencies around week 7-8
which looks like calcium deficiency, rust brown spots on leaves, upper stems turn purple, pistils turn brown in mid flowering and reduced yield. I still prefer the taste though. This happens to some plants while others grow perfect dense buds.
My mistakes: Overwatering sometimes (because of drip irrigation not by hand) and Overfeeding maybe.
I use 5G air pots filled with biobizz lightmix and worm humus (3:1) mixed with Biotabs products. Plants grow exceptional until flowering kicks in.
im using my tap water which comes at 0.43 EC. Let is sit for two days and put into Blumat reservoir and plant feed itself. I make compost tee and molasses feeds occasionaly.

Some people told me I must supply more calcium (gypsum) simply because what is in tap water and the nutrients is nowhere close to enough when growing under leds. This is the most advise I get. I couldn't believe it because the products I use all contain some ca and mg in it plus the soil and humus that I used combined with the ingredients of tap water.

Second option is soil ph gets too acidic when I overwater and locks out nutrients. I tend to believe this more because im growing them very humid the surface of the soil never gets dry.

And by reading this topic Im thinking maybe my soil ph is too high because of the caco3 presence in my tap water.
Im not a chemist or nowhere near that my head overwhelmed reading about many chemical compounds and how they react each other.
This last option looks more real to me now because I always get deficiencies later in the grow. ( salt buildup overtime) and it binds the calcium and plant looks like it needs it.

I have read many things about soft water hard water ppms etc.. It's all confusing different parts of the world using different ppm derivations.
It may not be the best but im putting my water analysis.

Should I brita my water then add some gypsum epsom?
or adding sulphur? sodium bicarbonate?
View attachment 5397690this chart is april 2024 and it doesn't show camg levels or caco3

View attachment 5397695this is the only one I could find showing what we need but it's from 2018

I never get any leaves yellowing between the veins described as mg deficiency. The last time I get it I was using Zerowater filter.
With this organic method I stopped buying zerowater filters and just used tap water which bring me issues I never encountered while growing with mineral nutes back in the day. I really love the way I grow now and the harvest quality just want to improve my yields. Providing some plant photos in 4x4 tent
View attachment 5397697at day 42 looking perfect
View attachment 5397698day 55 plant already slow flowering
View attachment 5397699you don't see but stems are purple, pistils withered.

I threw off my ph pen so I can't measure don't know if it's low or high but feeling what im struggling is the same things discussed in this topic.

I had the same thing in one of my pots..the healthier pot was a lot dryer in comparison. In flower you want your soil to be a little dryer compared to veg. Blumat (think it was Blumat, it might of been a grower I'm following) recommends your soil to be dryer in flower, up to 100-120 mBar. In veg you should be around 70 mBar. The higher the mBar the dryer the soil. Also a low soil pH usually means too much of something. Organics goes a long with larger pots as well. Lot more nutrients available in abundance in larger pots. You'd have to top feed more often in smaller pots but again a low ph means too much of something there. Especially in flower, your soils pH should be around 6.8, good luck man.