hom36rown
Well-Known Member
Like I said, Evolution is a fact, the mechanism is a theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact
Creation vs Evolution vs Whatever Else
- Thread starter TheHighClub
- Start date
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact
x15
Well-Known Member
interesting article from wiki.
unfortunately, the article does not even site one example of data from any fossil records to show evolution as fact. it does attempt to mistakenly sight subjective observations as objectivism.
peace
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
Whenever someone asks for proof that evolution occurs, I usually point to this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_catfishThe walking catfish is a fish which has adapted to its environment by evolving the ability to walk on its fins for short distances to find more water.It tends to live in seasonal puddles and ponds, and sometimes that water will dry up or become devoid of food.It is in the middle of the transition to land animal.
Even if you look at apes, you can see that they are most definitely in the same genus as us.Evolution isn't saying we're descended directly from these apes, just that we share a common ancestor.
Just look at Neanderthal man... not homo sapiens sapiens,but certainly related. Their DNA is slightly different.
Science and religion are at odds because one, science,seeks to question and disprove itself in order to eliminate faulty data and reach the real truth. The other, religion,wants you to believe in what it teaches without question and without proof.It seeks to place all human minds into a mindset which does not deviate,nor even conceive of any other ideology but the one they have been taught.
If anything, anyone who will not at least admit the possibility that there is evolution is doing themselves a great disservice.Because nature teaches us that change is constant and inevitable.Those who do not change, die.By refusing to question things,by not actively ADAPTING your mind to admit to the possibility there is no benevolent being tending the fire at the end of the universe,you are stagnating.Holding yourself back.And religion has accomplished its goal.To make you afraid,and therefore,controllable.Sorry for the rant.
Even if you look at apes, you can see that they are most definitely in the same genus as us.Evolution isn't saying we're descended directly from these apes, just that we share a common ancestor.
Just look at Neanderthal man... not homo sapiens sapiens,but certainly related. Their DNA is slightly different.
Science and religion are at odds because one, science,seeks to question and disprove itself in order to eliminate faulty data and reach the real truth. The other, religion,wants you to believe in what it teaches without question and without proof.It seeks to place all human minds into a mindset which does not deviate,nor even conceive of any other ideology but the one they have been taught.
If anything, anyone who will not at least admit the possibility that there is evolution is doing themselves a great disservice.Because nature teaches us that change is constant and inevitable.Those who do not change, die.By refusing to question things,by not actively ADAPTING your mind to admit to the possibility there is no benevolent being tending the fire at the end of the universe,you are stagnating.Holding yourself back.And religion has accomplished its goal.To make you afraid,and therefore,controllable.Sorry for the rant.
Dr. Greenhorn
Well-Known Member
So true stoney....And religion has accomplished its goal.To make you afraid,and therefore,controllable.Sorry for the rant.
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
And hey, I'm willing to admit, I COULD be wrong. But I CHOOSE to believe in science and evolution because it makes sense to me,and it doesn't seek to tell me that it is irrefutably correct.
x15
Well-Known Member
hi, stoney
the problem with this is that one has to assume it is a "transitional species" as appose to "just a species."
if one were to use the fossil records and go back in time they would see walking fish then as we see them today, if fish walked walk millions of years ago and they can walk today then it's a species (not transitional)
a good example of this is the Coelacanth fish which was said to be a transitional fish species having limbs, walked... etc. they lived 416 to 359.2 million years ago, until, they found the same exact fish today living having not evolved at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coelacanth
peace
x15
Well-Known Member
i don't know, but leaning towards created since fossil records disprove evolution.
i am certain of this, we as humans are getting more and more stupid, violent & destructive as time goes by, de-evolving to what we should not be. for as long as we have been on earth we still can't get along.
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
But when you go back in the fossil record, you DO see that humans did NOT live at the same time as Dinosaur.Which is what creationists forcefully assert, the 6000 year theory.Evolution doesn't claim to have all the answers.But Creationism does.All you have to do is suspend disbelief indefinitely. So...even if you don't believe in evolution, you have to admit Science does exist.And science teaches us critical thinking.It teaches us if a theory does not hold up to scrutiny, discard it. Creationism does not hold up to scrutiny.
hi, stoney
the problem with this is that one has to assume it is a "transitional species" as appose to "just a species."
if one were to use the fossil records and go back in time they would see walking fish then as we see them today, if fish walked walk millions of years ago and they can walk today then it's a species (not transitional)
a good example of this is the Coelacanth fish which was said to be a transitional fish species having limbs, walked... etc. they lived 416 to 359.2 million years ago, until, they found the same exact fish today living having not evolved at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coelacanth
peace
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
And here's a good read on transitional fossils. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part1a.html#tran
x15
Well-Known Member
this is being debated today whether humans lived in that time period. if you search "footprint fossils" you'll see several images of human footprints next to dinosaurs.
for the record, I AM NOT SAYING I BELIEVE THIS, just pointing something out
http://www.subversiveelement.com/FossilizedHumanFootprints.html
many creationist do not believe this because the bible says "1000 years to God is like 1 day, & 1 day is like a 1000 years." meaning, time is not the same time as we think it to be. many creationists believe the 6 day creation story were periods of millions of years.
science is just as much a religion as Christianity is, same type of fanatics, dogmas, spouting incontrovertible truths
i certainly do not have the answers
peace
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
Not contemporary. And this is what you're referring to.http://www.paleo.cc/paluxy/paluxy.htm
Pretty cut and dried.A day is a thousand years.So 6 days is 6000 years. And look up the website for creationism,yes, this is what they teach.
Not at all.Because scientists constantly question and attempt to disprove themselves in order to explain the way things are... Religion attempts to explain the way things are,but offers no concrete proof,and vilifies anyone who tries to apply a logical process to prove or disprove the theory presented.
By scientific process of elimination, Creationism does NOT hold up to scrutiny, therefore it can be excluded from the pool of possibilities.
this is being debated today whether humans lived in that time period. if you search "footprint fossils" you'll see several images of human footprints next to dinosaurs.
for the record, I AM NOT SAYING I BELIEVE THIS, just pointing something out
http://www.subversiveelement.com/FossilizedHumanFootprints.html
Pretty cut and dried.A day is a thousand years.So 6 days is 6000 years. And look up the website for creationism,yes, this is what they teach.
Not at all.Because scientists constantly question and attempt to disprove themselves in order to explain the way things are... Religion attempts to explain the way things are,but offers no concrete proof,and vilifies anyone who tries to apply a logical process to prove or disprove the theory presented.
By scientific process of elimination, Creationism does NOT hold up to scrutiny, therefore it can be excluded from the pool of possibilities.
science is just as much a religion as Christianity is, same type of fanatics, dogmas, spouting incontrovertible truths
i certainly do not have the answers
peace
old pothead
Well-Known Member
I wish i was still able to debate like i used too,but three heart attacks have robbed me of half of what little mind i had left.
I think the reason we were where put on this planet is to learn how to live in peace with each other,and how to live on this planet without destroying it.
The Bible is a blue print that shows us how to do this,honor your father and mother,do not murder,do not commit adultry,do not steal,do not bear false witness against your neighbor,do not covet your neighbors house,wife,male servant,female servant,nor his ox.
Simple things to follow that lead to people getting along and loving one another.
Look around and what do you see,kids killing their parents and not obeying them,hatred,murders,theft of every kind,people lying about everything,greed on a grand scale,everyone wants what the jones have.
I will follow these simple little rules and try to make my world a better place for me and my family.Those who choose not too,can hate your parents and evryone else,kill all you want,screw your neighbors wife and freinds wifes,steal all you want,lie about everything,and let greed rule your life.
You sleep in the bed you make,enjoy it.OPH
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
I don't personally believe there's a "reason", but I don't disagree that peace is a good thing.
The bible also advocates slavery and misogyny. People don't need a religion to get along and respect one another.They just need empathy.
That's been happening since the dawn of civilization.you just hear about it more because news can be relayed much quicker and over greater distances.
Once again, just because one is not religious doesn't mean they will murder, steal,or covet.One doesn't have to believe in the Bible to be a good person.
old pothead
Well-Known Member
Here are some reasons why evolution is wrong.
#1 The idea of natural selection sounds great when you consider the deer.Deer can sense danger and run fast and escape danger.One flaw is the bird,why would a bird evolve a wing stub that is useless.They are to small for the bird to fly and will not help it escape predators.Why would it evolve a useless wing,this is backwards of the theory of evolution.Which is they evolve to adapt and change to survive better in their enviroment.Why would the bird continue for millions of generations improving a wing that was useless.A bird with a half sized wing is put at a great disadvantage in its enviroment.
The theory of evolution is based on the most adaptable member of a species,not a bird with a wing stub.
#2 Evolutionist claim that the presence of many individual species proves evolution.Evolutionist line up many pictures of similar looking species and claim they evolved one to another.Humans are a great example.There are hundreds of extinct monkeys and apes with lots of fossil records.Evolutionist line up the most promising choices to present a gradual progression from monkey to man.Then they fill in the gaps with make believe creatures to fit the picture.They can only do this with man,they never do this with elephants or giraffes.All they prove is there are many individual species and does not prove evolution.
#3 Scientists a century ago believed the smallest single living cell was a simple life form.The theory developed that perhaps lightning struck a pond of water causing several molecules to combine in a random way which by chance resulted in a living cell.The cell then divided and evolved into higher life forms.The most modern labs are unable to create a living cell.In fact they are unable to create a single left handed protein molecule found in all animals.
#4 Evolutionist ignore the problem surrounding the human egg and the male sperm in evolutionary theory.The female egg contains the x chromosome and the male sperm contains either an x or y chromosome.The female eggs develop in the ovaries while it is a baby(fetus).Evolutionist claim that enviromental factors cause small changes in the offspring in the evolutionary chain.However,the enviromental experience of the female cannot change the chromosomes within her eggs and connot have any effect on her offspring.Her body cannot go into the eggs contained within her ovaries at her birth to make an intelligent change.Females cannot be a part of the evolutionary theory for these reasons.
#5 The scientific fact that DNA replication includes a built in error checking method and a DNA repair proces proves the evolutionary theory is wrong.The fact is that any attempt by the DNA to change is stopped and reversed.
#6 The second law of thermodynamics proves that organization cannot flow from chaos.Complex live organisms cannot rearrange themselfs into an organism of a higher form as claimed by evolutionist.This is scientifically backwards according to the second law of thermodynamics that has never been proven wrong.Scientists cannot have it both ways.The second law of thermodynamics is proven to be correct.Evolution lacks any scientific proof.Evolution is a empty theory.
#7Ther is no scientific evidence that a species can change the number of chromosomes within the DNA.The chromosomes within each species is fixed.This is the reason a male from one species cannot mate successfully with a female from another slecies.Man could not evolve from a monkey.Each species is locked into its chromosome count that cannot change.If a animal developed an extra chromosome or lost a chromosome because of some deformity,it could not successfully mate.The defect could not be passed along to the next generation.Evolving a new species is scientifically impossible.Evolutionists prove that a college education does not impart wisdom.
#8 Evolutionists throw up their hands at the question of the origin of matter because they know something cannot evolve from nothing.They stick their heads in the sand and ignore the problem.The fact that matter exists in outrageously large quantities simply proves evolution is wrong.The big bang theory doesn't solve the problem either.Matter and energy have to come from somewhere.
#9 Two NASA land rovers named Spirit and Opportunity have explored mars during 2004.They show signs of water being present in the past.They prove that water was once abundant on the surface of mars,but they have not been able to find any signs of life or life in the past.Mars has a proven history of having flowing water at one time and a atmosphere suitable to support life forms.Mars has had all of the conditions necessary to provide the "spark" of life according to the evolutionary theory,yet there is no life on mars.The river beds and banks show no signs of vegetation or trees.The ground has no fossils and no organisms,it is sterile.
#10 Mars is not the only place that shows no signs of life.The entire universe lacks any sign of life.There are no radio signals that can be related to intelligent life forms.None of the billions of galaxies have been found to emit any intelligent radio signals.Scientists have been pointing every type of radio telescope possible into space for several decades in hopes of finding a intelligent signal,no signs of life have been found beyond earth.We are alone.OPH
#1 The idea of natural selection sounds great when you consider the deer.Deer can sense danger and run fast and escape danger.One flaw is the bird,why would a bird evolve a wing stub that is useless.They are to small for the bird to fly and will not help it escape predators.Why would it evolve a useless wing,this is backwards of the theory of evolution.Which is they evolve to adapt and change to survive better in their enviroment.Why would the bird continue for millions of generations improving a wing that was useless.A bird with a half sized wing is put at a great disadvantage in its enviroment.
The theory of evolution is based on the most adaptable member of a species,not a bird with a wing stub.
#2 Evolutionist claim that the presence of many individual species proves evolution.Evolutionist line up many pictures of similar looking species and claim they evolved one to another.Humans are a great example.There are hundreds of extinct monkeys and apes with lots of fossil records.Evolutionist line up the most promising choices to present a gradual progression from monkey to man.Then they fill in the gaps with make believe creatures to fit the picture.They can only do this with man,they never do this with elephants or giraffes.All they prove is there are many individual species and does not prove evolution.
#3 Scientists a century ago believed the smallest single living cell was a simple life form.The theory developed that perhaps lightning struck a pond of water causing several molecules to combine in a random way which by chance resulted in a living cell.The cell then divided and evolved into higher life forms.The most modern labs are unable to create a living cell.In fact they are unable to create a single left handed protein molecule found in all animals.
#4 Evolutionist ignore the problem surrounding the human egg and the male sperm in evolutionary theory.The female egg contains the x chromosome and the male sperm contains either an x or y chromosome.The female eggs develop in the ovaries while it is a baby(fetus).Evolutionist claim that enviromental factors cause small changes in the offspring in the evolutionary chain.However,the enviromental experience of the female cannot change the chromosomes within her eggs and connot have any effect on her offspring.Her body cannot go into the eggs contained within her ovaries at her birth to make an intelligent change.Females cannot be a part of the evolutionary theory for these reasons.
#5 The scientific fact that DNA replication includes a built in error checking method and a DNA repair proces proves the evolutionary theory is wrong.The fact is that any attempt by the DNA to change is stopped and reversed.
#6 The second law of thermodynamics proves that organization cannot flow from chaos.Complex live organisms cannot rearrange themselfs into an organism of a higher form as claimed by evolutionist.This is scientifically backwards according to the second law of thermodynamics that has never been proven wrong.Scientists cannot have it both ways.The second law of thermodynamics is proven to be correct.Evolution lacks any scientific proof.Evolution is a empty theory.
#7Ther is no scientific evidence that a species can change the number of chromosomes within the DNA.The chromosomes within each species is fixed.This is the reason a male from one species cannot mate successfully with a female from another slecies.Man could not evolve from a monkey.Each species is locked into its chromosome count that cannot change.If a animal developed an extra chromosome or lost a chromosome because of some deformity,it could not successfully mate.The defect could not be passed along to the next generation.Evolving a new species is scientifically impossible.Evolutionists prove that a college education does not impart wisdom.
#8 Evolutionists throw up their hands at the question of the origin of matter because they know something cannot evolve from nothing.They stick their heads in the sand and ignore the problem.The fact that matter exists in outrageously large quantities simply proves evolution is wrong.The big bang theory doesn't solve the problem either.Matter and energy have to come from somewhere.
#9 Two NASA land rovers named Spirit and Opportunity have explored mars during 2004.They show signs of water being present in the past.They prove that water was once abundant on the surface of mars,but they have not been able to find any signs of life or life in the past.Mars has a proven history of having flowing water at one time and a atmosphere suitable to support life forms.Mars has had all of the conditions necessary to provide the "spark" of life according to the evolutionary theory,yet there is no life on mars.The river beds and banks show no signs of vegetation or trees.The ground has no fossils and no organisms,it is sterile.
#10 Mars is not the only place that shows no signs of life.The entire universe lacks any sign of life.There are no radio signals that can be related to intelligent life forms.None of the billions of galaxies have been found to emit any intelligent radio signals.Scientists have been pointing every type of radio telescope possible into space for several decades in hopes of finding a intelligent signal,no signs of life have been found beyond earth.We are alone.OPH
bicycle racer
Well-Known Member
it is very arrogant to assume we are the only living things in the universes it is vast beyond imagination and if you have to learn to be a good person from the bible something is wrong. i know many non religious people who are good people naturally. im neither religious nor an atheists but evolution does take place there are some aspects i disagree with but it is a basically sound theory and much easier to swallow than the crazy talk in the bible. an example of somewhat recent evolution would be the finches and tortoises on the various galapagos islands they have evolved to meet there needs through natural selection. its the same as cannabis cannabis evolved from 1 species humans spread the plant around the world now we have very different cannabis plants because of them adapting to the needs of there location as examples an african sativa is very different from a afghani indica where cannabis was originally from.
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
Nice copy and paste.
HUh?Because the bird no longer needs the wing in its environment.Are you trying to tell me that an ostrich cannot escape a predator, or fight back?It loses the wing in order to gain other advantages, seems pretty obvious.
Absolute nonsense.There are no made up creatures being used to fill gaps.That is the sole province of religion. Making up a creature who has never been proven to exist, yet offering no explanation as to where this creature is, what actual evidence we have of it,(other than hearsay,the bible)and why, if it was the author of intelligent design, it didn't get it right in the first place?Being as it's omnipotent and doesn't make mistakes, please explain disease, deformation, and death as evidence of an omnipotent being who cannot make mistakes?Surely he'd be able to design better creatures?
Because noone knows for sure the exact conditions on earth at the time that life came about.Of course it cannot be replicated.Creationists cannot come up with irrefutable proof of their Creator's existence, and do not even attempt to explain.
It's called mitochondrial DNA.You only get it from your mother. The rest is just nonsense.Environmental factors DO play a part in the development of offspring.To suggest they are unchanged by environmental factors is foolish.An extreme example would be deformities caused by pollution.The placenta is permeable.
Where did you get this nonsense from?It's called Natural selection.
Completely shows the author has no idea what the second law of thermodynamics is actually about.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics
Wrong again.Chromosomes change because they are made of DNA, and DNA Constantly changes. Evolutionists don't say we evolved from monkeys.They merely suggest we have a common ancestor.This is proof that just because you string a bunch of words together doesn't mean you have any idea what you're talking about.
Right....no, evolutionists merely admit, noone knows for sure, and are unwilling to say something is fact without evidence pointing to that conclusion.Not so creationists.They're happy to tell you what happened, but give you no proof. If matter and energy must come from somewhere, you've defeated yourself.Because you cannot answer:Who created this creator?
FACT: Mars has NEVER had the exact conditions on it that earth has in it's past.Because it orbits farther from the sun, and has a weak magnetic field which does not hold a strong atmosphere.You're trying to compare apples and oranges.
Now this one really takes the cake.We could probe for thousands of years and not even BEGIN to cover a significant portion of the Galaxy, let alone the universe.DO you realize how massive the Universe is? Just because you looked through a basket of red socks and found no white ones, you conclude, "White socks don't exist." Newsflash! There are 5,000,000,000,000 other baskets to go through!And each one of them contains 5,000,000,000,000,000 socks!
Dr. Greenhorn
Well-Known Member
WoW!!!! I'm really out of my league on this one......I'll just watch from the side LOL
old pothead
Well-Known Member
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
Pretty easy.Since I don't have the Bible memorized, I'll just grab some verses real quick.
Misogyny:
"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner"
(I Timothy 2:11-14).
"
The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).
Keep a headstrong daughter under firm control, or she will abuse any indulgence she receives. Keep a strict watch on her shameless eye, do not be surprised if she disgraces you" (Ecclesiasticus 26:10-11).
"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
"When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening" (Lev. 15:19-23).
"A bad wife brings humiliation, downcast looks, and a wounded heart. Slack of hand and weak of knee is the man whose wife fails to make him happy. Woman is the origin of sin, and it is through her that we all die. Do not leave a leaky cistern to drip or allow a bad wife to say what she likes. If she does not accept your control, divorce her and send her away" (Ecclesiasticus 25:25).
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).
Deuteronomy 22:20-21:
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
Slavery!
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Here's some rape!
Genesis 19:5-8:
They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so
that we can have sex with them."
Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
And hey! TO add insult to injury, God kills an innocent child!
2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]
Misogyny:
"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner"
(I Timothy 2:11-14).
"
The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).
Keep a headstrong daughter under firm control, or she will abuse any indulgence she receives. Keep a strict watch on her shameless eye, do not be surprised if she disgraces you" (Ecclesiasticus 26:10-11).
"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
"When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening" (Lev. 15:19-23).
"A bad wife brings humiliation, downcast looks, and a wounded heart. Slack of hand and weak of knee is the man whose wife fails to make him happy. Woman is the origin of sin, and it is through her that we all die. Do not leave a leaky cistern to drip or allow a bad wife to say what she likes. If she does not accept your control, divorce her and send her away" (Ecclesiasticus 25:25).
"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).
Deuteronomy 22:20-21:
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
Slavery!
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Here's some rape!
Genesis 19:5-8:
They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so
that we can have sex with them."
Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
And hey! TO add insult to injury, God kills an innocent child!
2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]
Stoney McFried
Well-Known Member
And lo and behold...god's gonna get in on the action, too.
(Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
(Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)