1984 ...

[ViRedd]

No, the Soviet economy had been declining for years. The Soviets really didn't increase their military spending by very much as a result of the arms race-they simply couldn't have kept up with us even if they had wanted to,which they really did not. But because of their years of militarism,the Soviet economy began to crumble.Infant mortality went up,health care and industry began to collapse.The country simply could not sustain itself if it adhered to the policies of the past that were responsible for the state the U.S.S.R found itself in.Decreased military spending was inevitable.
They had realized their system had failed,and that they needed to change or die.Simple as that.
As I stated in a previous post ,Reagan (and Thatcher) "getting tough" with the Russians only served to delay the fall of Communism in that country,as those who were for it redoubled their resistance to change in order to defy us.

OK, let's concede that we both see things differently on this issue ... BUT it DOES appear that we both agree that communism/collectivism is a system of failure ... and I'm happy with that.

Now go tell Med-O'Mao.

 

[jeff f]

some 350 million people freed from shackles of communism. yep reagan was a dolt. in case you havent noticed, star wars was not cancelled. the by products, surface to air missiles that shoot down other missiles now protect most of europe and isreal. what a shlep. you site economic data from 81 to 83. ahhh, that was a massive recession period caused by stagflation (same stuff obama is doing now) followed by the largest advance in an economy ever in the history of the world to that point. reagan, jerkoff. because of our riches we were able to feed more starving people aroud the world than anyone has ever done. reagan, what a fag. the berlin wall was to keep the slaves of communism in, not to block people like illegal immigrants out. people from eastern block countries died daily trying to get their families to the west. reagan, what an ass. and what a rewrite of history you idiots have. a brain is a terrible thing to waste.

 

[Stoney McFried]

Reagan can certainly be credited with bringing attention to the Soviet Union-but really, his beef with them, IMO, stems from living in the age of McCarthyism,when Communism was a scare tactic used to keep folks in line,and Russia being used as the symbolism for that movement.Reagan was a supporter of McCarthy, and I read he even informed on other actors to the FBI. Since he swallowed McCarthyism hook,line,and sinker, it's no surprise that he made much of its ideals a focus for his political career.
He was also very efficient at propaganda,and appointed a group to take care of "perception management"- controlling the news and how it was presented to the American people.And if anyone voiced disagreement,then, just like McCarthy, Reagan and his people accused them of being "un American". He spun terrorists as "freedom fighters" simply because he was backing them by providing weapons and funding to them-because it was in his best interests politically if they overthrew their current regimes.
And during all and any of this,he created a symbol of "evil" in the form of the U.S.S.R,to distract the public from the real issues and keep them terrified enough to agree with his policies.


Now, I live in Iowa, so I never got to go into any fallout shelters nor experience drills.And if there were really a panic, there is no reason we shouldn't have...my town is close enough to the Rock Island Arsenal that a nuke hitting it would get us,too.

Remember that movie "The Day After". We had a fallout shelter in the school I attended and we actually had drills. I guess it depends on where you lived but I remember very vividly how nuclear annhilation was always being discussed. Both sides used propaganda and I totally agree that much of what was being said was greatly exaggerated. Perhaps you are right and the collapse was inevitable but I think it's only fair to credit Reagan with some part whether it be by way of his rhetoric or actual policy in ending the cold war. Point is whenever politics are involved both sides can spin history to favor their party's role in it. I'm not a "Reagan-o-phile" but I think he had a positive impact on history as it pertains to the cold war. Hindsight is 20/20 but the whole story is rarely told. And of course the Russians are gonna say that U.S. military spending played no role but It's obvious we were in an arms race with them. In the end we won that race even if the victory was purely economic.

 

[Hayduke]

Does this piss off anyone else in the forum, or is it just me?

Well so far it pisses off one other person....crackerjax should be here later this afternoon...it will piss him off also.

Stoney I agree with most of what you have added and thank you.

But I grew up in the 80's...was not allowed to watch television...except for the news...My cousins were extras in "The Day After" filmed in KC and Lawrence...I read "Alas Babylon for 10th grade summer school English
...and was scared shitless that Nuclear Holocaust was going to get us all...why do good in school...why go to college...why not do LSD?

Ronnie Raygun kept Gorbachev entertained while GHW Bush ran the show...all the time the political cartoons portrayed him as some kind of baffoon...who was the head of the CIA. Then he kept Ronnie in a catatonic state for his second term by feeding him his own Ely-Lilly Halcyon.

The conservatives want to paint the rosy picture of their messiah so much so that my school gave a speech over the intercom about how great Ronnie was and how he ended tore down the wall....11 months after he left office!

Afghanistan had a lot to do with the fall of the Soviet Union...and our covert funding of terrorists undoubtedly helped...are we next?

 

[Hayduke]

in case you havent noticed, star wars was not cancelled. the by products, surface to air missiles that shoot down other missiles now protect most of europe and isreal.

Surface to air missiles (SAM's) are not new. Remember the bombing of SAM sites in North Vietnam? The using of them to hit other missiles may be new, but Star Wars was lasers in space to hit ICBM which have left the atmosphere, not medium range rockets.

It is also not a huge stretch to move from a missile targeting the hot exhaust of a jet and the hot exhaust of a missile.

"Marijuana is possibly the most dangerous drug known to mankind"

~Ronald Reagan

This is like Jews taking sides with Hitler.

 

[Stoney McFried]

And let's not forget...though he is largely viewed as an ineffective president, Jimmy Carter at least had the balls suggest decriminalization during his term before succumbing to political pressure after one of his people got caught with cocaine.

 

[Hayduke]

And let's not forget...though he is largely viewed as an ineffective president, Jimmy Carter at least had the balls suggest decriminalization during his term before succumbing to political pressure after one of his people got caught with cocaine.

He also legalized homebrewing of beer.

 

[doc111]

Regan can certainly be credited with bringing attention to the Soviet Union-but really, his beef with them, IMO, stems from living in the age of McCarthyism,when Communism was a scare tactic used to keep folks in line,and Russia being used as the symbolism for that movement.Reagan was a supporter of McCarthy, and I read he even informed on other actors to the FBI. Since he swallowed McCarthyism hook,line,and sinker, it's no surprise that he made much of its ideals a focus for his political career.
He was also very efficient at propaganda,and appointed a group to take care of "perception management"- controlling the news and how it was presented to the American people.And if anyone voiced disagreement,then, just like McCarthy, Reagan and his people accused them of being "un American". He spun terrorists as "freedom fighters" simply because he was backing them by providing weapons and funding to them-because it was in his best interests politically if they overthrew their current regimes.
And during all and any of this,he created a symbol of "evil" in the form of the U.S.S.R,to distract the public from the real issues and keep them terrified enough to agree with his policies.


Now, I live in Iowa, so I never got to go into any fallout shelters nor experience drills.And if there were really a panic, there is no reason we shouldn't have...my town is close enough to the Rock Island Arsenal that a nuke hitting it would get us,too.

All good presidents are effective propagandists. I think it's clear now that the Soviets didn't want a nuclear war anymore than we did. Communism was looked at as a threat to the American way of life for economic as well as idealogical reasons. I also think it's pretty clear that communism was a dismal failure for reasons too numerous to name. Reagan may have revved up the cold war with his propaganda but this had to have contributed to the collapse. We can't know what would've happened if someone else had been in office. I think it can certainly be argued either way. We are slaves to the information we are fed and some people had a different picture painted for them than others. There is no way we can possibly know everything that contributed to the collapse. I think the whole situation was more complex and involved than anybody realizes. Was Reagan a hero or a villain? Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between.

 

[medicineman]

I think we all, well those of us that actually think, can clearly see that Reagan was a tool. If one actually looks at the record, Reagan comes off way different than the conservatives paint him, But that seems to be the case with many other things also. Conservatives, libertarians, Republicans, John Birchers, Birthers, deathers, etc., all have a twisted view of History. They present their view as the factual occurences of History. It's too bad they are mostly wrong.

 

[Hayduke]

It is also too bad that a bunch of pissy republicans have screwed up the libertarian party.

 

[Stoney McFried]

I certainly don't think he needs to be idolized as the right is doing...anyone who can laugh off the AIDS crisis and declare it judgment from god,or who conspires to overthrow the constitution of the United States in order to remain in power indefinitely is certainly no hero, in my book.

I think the whole situation was more complex and involved than anybody realizes. Was Reagan a hero or a villain? Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between.

 

[doc111]

I think we all, well those of us that actually think, can clearly see that Reagan was a tool. If one actually looks at the record, Reagan comes off way different than the conservatives paint him, But that seems to be the case with many other things also. Conservatives, libertarians, Republicans, John Birchers, Birthers, deathers, etc., all have a twisted view of History. They present their view as the factual occurences of History. It's too bad they are mostly wrong.

Interesting how each of us thinks that his/her "taught version" of history is the right one.

 

[jeff f]

anyone who can laugh off the AIDS crisis

i dont really think the aids crisis is a legitimate beef. looking back now, yes, a lot of mistakes. but remember aids was started when he was in office. nobody knew what to do with it. it was, mostly, a homosexual male disease. people, scientists and doctors thought that this could be worse than the plague. there was little information available and it wasnt even known what was causing it. what was known was that a lot of male homosexuals were dying from it. so preaching against homosexuality is kind of a natural reaction.

as for star wars, the only thing that was dropped was the nme. all our laser guided stuff ws developedthrough the program. spent 20 years in the airforce starting in 81. there is a ton of weapon systems developed through the program.

 

[doc111]

I certainly don't think he needs to be idolized as the right is doing...anyone who can laugh off the AIDS crisis and declare it judgment from god,or who conspires to overthrow the constitution of the United States in order to remain in power indefinitely is certainly no hero, in my book.

That's my point. Anybody can find good and bad things about every president. It comes down to what we are taught and what we choose to see. And most people were ignorant about AIDs at that time as it was a brand new thing. No president can be all things to everyone. It's simply not realistic.

 

[Stoney McFried]

I really think it is.Yes, not much was known about AIDS at first, but to suggest homosexuals were being punished by god for their sexual activities was neither particularly sensitive or intelligent.

i dont really think the aids crisis is a legitimate beef. looking back now, yes, a lot of mistakes. but remember aids was started when he was in office. nobody knew what to do with it. it was, mostly, a homosexual male disease. people, scientists and doctors thought that this could be worse than the plague. there was little information available and it wasnt even known what was causing it. what was known was that a lot of male homosexuals were dying from it. so preaching against homosexuality is kind of a natural reaction.

The missile defense shield proposed by Reagan was not an option for us as technology stood in the 80's. Years of research would be needed before we could even attempt to build such a thing. The program failed to meet the expectations set for it.Just because laser guided technology was developed as a result of the program doesn't mean the program did as it was supposed to-those lasers were supposed to shoot down enemy missiles,and were not powerful enough to do so. And despite all the advancements you may say have come about because of the program -which, by the way,was revived by subsequent presidents AFTER it failed,the fact remains that in 2009, we still do not have a missile defense shield like the one the STAR WARS program was supposed to provide for us.
As for all the advancements you cite, I'll have to defer to your knowledge on the subject, as you are military and I am not.
Still, the point is that we are spending money on a program that has not delivered as promised,despite nearly 25 years passing since its inception.I feel safe in declaring that program a failure.

as for star wars, the only thing that was dropped was the nme. all our laser guided stuff ws developedthrough the program. spent 20 years in the airforce starting in 81. there is a ton of weapon systems developed through the program.

 

[Stoney McFried]

No, NOONE can be all things to everyone,and I don't expect them to be.However,I certainly don't agree with glossing over the facts in order to paint a person in a better light than they deserve.

That's my point. Anybody can find good and bad things about every president. It comes down to what we are taught and what we choose to see. And most people were ignorant about AIDs at that time as it was a brand new thing. No president can be all things to everyone. It's simply not realistic.

 

[redivider]

I really think it is.Yes, not much was known about AIDS at first, but to suggest homosexuals were being punished by god for their sexual activities was neither particularly sensitive or intelligent.


The missile defense shield proposed by Reagan was not an option for us as technology stood in the 80's. Years of research would be needed before we could even attempt to build such a thing. The program failed to meet the expectations set for it.Just because laser guided technology was developed as a result of the program doesn't mean the program did as it was supposed to-those lasers were supposed to shoot down enemy missiles,and were not powerful enough to do so. And despite all the advancements you may say have come about because of the program -which, by the way,was revived by subsequent presidents AFTER it failed,the fact remains that in 2009, we still do not have a missile defense shield like the one the STAR WARS program was supposed to provide for us.
As for all the advancements you cite, I'll have to defer to your knowledge on the subject, as you are military and I am not.
Still, the point is that we are spending money on a program that has not delivered as promised,despite nearly 25 years passing since its inception.I feel safe in declaring that program a failure.

AIDS was not a scurge from god sent to destroy homosexuals. the correlation between homosexuals and AIDS was entirely erroneous.
the conclusion was reached by researchers who knew they could sell that load of bullshit to a homophobic White House. AIDS was never assumed to be a homosexual disease, not by doctors anyways. they knew it was a virus, that was spread sexually, and that it was originating in Africa, among the native African population, not the gay community. scientists KNEW that it was a sexual disease, not a homosexual disease. the way that president reached that conclusion tells a lot about his personal beliefs, and why he was not a "great" president. he was closed minded, deeply religious, and apparently not too logical in reaching conclusions....

I saw a program on engineering failures that involved the Star Wars program. it failed miserably, and produced some of the worse pork-belly programs in the government.

a special sonar, which was outdated and replaced by Radar less than 2 years later, was developed with a budget of about 1/2 billion dollars, and remained active, in service, for 20 years, at a cost of nearly 30 million a year, and it was useless.... it had been outdated, useless, and a splurge...

i can't remember the name of the technology, but it has been categorized as one of the worse spending sprees in the country's history...

but remember, if a republican did it, and it is making other repbublicans ridiculously rich, it's alright, cuz it's all white.......

 

[ViRedd]

McCarthy was anti-communist .... therefore, I hate McCarthy.

Thatcher was anti-communist ..... therefore, I hate Thatcher.

Reagan was anti-communist ....... therefore, I hate Reagan.

Anyone see a pattern here?

 

[Hayduke]

McCarthy was anti-communist .... therefore, I hate McCarthy.

Thatcher was anti-communist ..... therefore, I hate Thatcher.

Reagan was anti-communist ....... therefore, I hate Reagan.

Anyone see a pattern here?

Yes...those people were very anti.

 

[medicineman]

Interesting how each of us thinks that his/her "taught version" of history is the right one.

My friend, the taught version of history was much more accurate when I was a school child, not so much any more.
I have learned my views from living in the world and reading many things, from Plato to Marx, FDR to JRR Tolkein. History books and articles of every flavor. I know how to smell bullshit. What I don't get is the immature views by the right. Seems they have been schooled by some cult, like the Birchers. What is wrong with Social Security other than the fact that the government has continusly robbed the fund and left it broke, so the politicians could fund their pet projects like war and military spending. If the fund would have been left alone, it would be funded well into the 2050s. It was the right wing of the government that raided the fund, and now they want to kill it. What do you righties want from "we the people" More blood? We have shed gallons, tons of blood for your wars. When will it ever be enough?